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    • Welcome to the National Consumer Service Buying any goods or any services??? A used car? - Paying by cash or bank transfer??? - BIG Fail!Share the love – Tell a friend about the Consumer Action Group - your National Consumer ServiceAre you buying a used car...? Protect yourself – read our used car guideESSENTIAL:: Read our Customer Services Guide!!!Twitter - Why you should open a Twitter account ESSENTIAL:: Read our Customer Services Guide!!!Have we helped you today...? Please help the CAG Had a car accident? Been offered a courtesy car?Follow @Real_CAG Parcel Delivery Insurance is Unlawful - The TimesWhy don't you change your profile picture?? Problem with utilities company or phone/broadband? Begin by sending a statutory request for your personal data. It’s free    Parcel delivery insurance is prohibited under section 57 – Consumer Rights Act – Read about It Here and in The Times.× Financial Legal Issues Complete My Profile Dismiss Next Step: Profile Photo (Profile Photo and Cover Photo) Your profile is 0% complete! Twitter X - Include the @company's twitter name in your post title – here's why… The UK Stands With Ukraine - 'Slava Ukraini' Parcel delivery insurance is prohibited under section 57 – Consumer Rights Act – Read about It Here and in The Times.  You have received a Court Claim ISSUED IN ENGLAND & WALES What you need to do Rate this topic By citizenB March 4, 2014 in Financial Legal Issues style="text-align: center;">     Thread Locked because no one has posted on it for the last 3638 days. If you need to add something to this thread then   Please click the "Report " link   at the bottom of one of the posts.   If you want to post a new story then Please Start your own new thread That way you will attract more attention to your story and get more visitors and more help    Thanks   citizenB Posted March 4, 2014 #1   The questionnaires below provide important information which will allow us to help you. In order to use them, you will have to copy them into your own post and then give us the answers – preferably in red below each question. You can start by overwriting the prompt: "Give answer here" below each question – and your responses should automatically appear in red   Thank you +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++   You have received a claim form.   firstly - read all the posts in this thread FIRST...   then copy this first msg to your thread - and put your answer after each question   In order for us to help you we require the following information:- [if there are more than one defendant listed - tell us]     Which Court have you received the claim from ? Name County Court   MCOL Northampton N1 ? Manual Claim CCMCC (Salford) ? New beta WWW.MONEYCLAIMS.SERVICE.GOV.UK ?   If possible please scan redact and upload a full page copy of page 1 of the claim form. (not the response page or AOS)     Name of the Claimant ? Give answer here   How many defendant's  joint or self ? Give answer here   Date of issue – top right hand corner of the claim form – this in order to establish the time line you need to adhere to. Give answer here   ^^^^^ NOTE : WHEN CALCULATING THE TIMELINE - PLEASE REMEMBER THAT THE DATE ON THE CLAIMFORM IS ONE IN THE COUNT [example: Issue date 01.03.2014 + 19 days (5 days for service + 14 days to acknowledge) = 19.03.2014 + 14 days to submit defence = 02.04.2014] = 33 days in total   Date of issue XX + 19 days ( 5 day for service + 14 days to acknowledge) = XX + 14 days to submit defence = XX (33 days in total)  if your defence filing date falls on a W/End, you must file by friday @4PM     Particulars of Claim   What is the claim for – the reason they have issued the claim? Please type out their particulars of claim in full (verbatim) less any identifiable data and round the amounts up/down. state how many digits the account number has.. Give answer here   What is the total value of the claim? Give answer here   Have you received prior notice of a claim being issued pursuant to paragraph 3 of the PAPDC (Pre Action Protocol) ? Give answer here   Have you changed your address since the time at which the debt referred to in the claim was allegedly incurred? Give answer here   Did you inform the claimant of your change of address? Give answer here Is the claim for - a Bank Account (Overdraft) or credit card or loan or catalogue or mobile phone account? Give answer here   When did you enter into the original agreement before or after April 2007 ? Give answer here   Do you recall how you entered into the agreement...On line /In branch/By post ? Give answer here   Is the debt showing on your credit reference files (Experian/Equifax /Etc...) ? Give answer here   Has the claim been issued by the original creditor or was the account assigned and it is the Debt purchaser who has issued the claim. Give answer here   Were you aware the account had been assigned – did you receive a Notice of Assignment? Give answer here   Did you receive a Default Notice from the original creditor? Give answer here   Have you been receiving statutory notices headed “Notice of Sums in Arrears”  or " Notice of Arrears "– at least once a year ? Give answer here   Why did you cease payments? Give answer here   What was the date of your last payment? Give answer here   Was there a dispute with the original creditor that remains unresolved? Give answer here   Did you communicate any financial problems to the original creditor and make any attempt to enter into a debt management plan? Give answer here   What you need to do now.   Answer the questions above   If you have not already done so – send a CCA request to the claimant for a copy of your agreement (If Applicable) (except for Overdraft/ Mobile/Telephone accounts)   Send a CPR31.14 request to the solicitor named on the claim form for copies of documents mentioned/implied within the claim form. There are two different versions - one for Loans/Credit cards the other for Current accounts   Request 1 - Loans/Credit Cards     Request 2 - Current Accounts     You may use a CPR part 18 request for any other information (not request documents) that you might require in order to defend yourself. Please note that CPR 18 is specifically for Fast Track claims and although technically the claim has yet to be allocated to a track the claimant may refuse to comply for this reason.   If you require CPR Part 18 - this will need to be drafted specifically.   If you are not planning on defending for one reason or another – then you will need to complete an Income and Expenditure form and contact the Solicitor with your proposal. The N9a is already enclosed in the claim pack for Admittance which should be sent to the solicitor named on the claim form   If you are considering making a partial admittance N9b must be completed and returned to the court. Please note in most cases a partial admittance will result in an automatic CCJ for the amount admitted.   You have received a Claim - What you need to do.pdf1.33 MB · 242 downloads     Before Printing the PDF TIP   If you DO NOT wish to print Page 1 (Cover Page) of the PDF, please ensure to do the following:   Ensure you go to your Printer Settings and set it to 'Print from Page 2' (this way Page 1 (Cover Page) should not print out).   Note: This will save you Ink & Paper     Bookmark   Report 3 weeks later...   AndyOrch Posted March 20, 2014 #2   Once you receive a Court Summons N1   As a defendant in a small claims case it is important that you act quickly and do not ignore the claim form when it arrives. Remember, the claim will proceed anyway even if you don’t respond. If the claim goes against you, it will be very difficult to make a counter claim as you didn’t respond to the initial small claim.   You may be unaware that you are the defendant in a small claims case that a Creditor has bought against you. When the small claims form arrives follow these initial steps:   1: Read the Form Carefully   The detail about the claim that is being bought against you will be in the ‘particulars of claim’ section. If this section isn't completed, or has the words ‘particulars of claim to follow’ take no action now and wait until you are sent details of the claim against you. You may want to consult a lawyer at this stage.   2: Respond in Time   It’s vitally important that you respond to the claim for you have been sent. Remember that there is a 19 day (5 +14) time limit on this to acknowledge the claim.You must submit before the 19 days are up, so post your response with plenty of time.If your intention is to defend the claim in full you get a further 14 days to submit your response ...so 33 days in total.   3: Talk to the Claimant   Just because a small claim has been bought against you and a claim form issued, this doesn’t mean you are not allowed to contact the claimant directly. In fact the court encourages you to try and settle the claim without the need for a court appearance. So, try and resolve your dispute directly with the claimant if you can.   Not Responding to a Small Claim   If you ignore the small claims form when it arrives this can have an adverse impact on your financial status. The court will continue with the small claims lawsuit that is being bought against you even in your absence as this is a legal requirement. When the small claim is processed you will be sent a bill showing the amount you owe and any additional costs. The small claims against you is a legal process that will be recorded on the Register of Judgements, Orders and Fines. This information is used to check your credit, so could have a negative impact when you next apply for any credit. To avoid damaging your credit rating reply to your small claims docket as soon as you can.   How to Respond to Your Small Claims Form   When you received your form from the court you will also have been sent a response pack. In this pack you will see the option that are open to you. These include:   • A dispute claim form. You can use this form if you do not agree that you are liable for the small claim being bought against you and wish to submit a Defence. • Details about how to pay the amount being claimed from you. • Details about how to admit to part of the small claim against you, and how you can ask the claimant for more time to pay.   There are Two Types of Small Claims:   Fixed Amounts:   If the claim against you is for a fixed amount of money your response pack will contain three forms. Form N9 (acknowledgement of Service), form N9A (admission form) and N9B (defence and counterclaim form).   Unspecified Amounts:   If the amount being claimed is unspecified you will be sent forms N9 and N9C (admission form) and N9D (defence and counterclaim form). It is vital that you read the accompanying explanatory notes before choosing which form to send back.   Paying the Small Claim   If you want to make full payment of the amount being claimed against you this amount will be shown on the claim for you have been sent, and will also have details about where to send the money. Don’t forget, this must be done within the 14 day time limit or your case will proceed to the next stage.   In some instances you would like to pay, but need more time, you can give details about the delay you would like on form N9A, which should be in your response pack. It’s also a good idea to read leaflet EX309: The Defendant Admits by claim as this gives more details on this aspect of your case when fixed amounts of money are involved. Leaflet EX308 gives details of cases when unspecified amounts are being claimed against you.   Also please read forms EX326 and EX160A   How to Defend a Claim Against You   Disputed claims are handled by filling in the appropriate form from your response pack. You have three choices: Form N9, N9B or N9D. Read the note accompanying each form carefully to ensure you completely correctly. Pay special attention to the allegations raised on the form. If you don’t respond to each the court will assume you are admitting guilt. Edited April 10, 2014 by stu007 Updated PDF added    1   Bookmark   Report 2 months later...   citizenB   Posted June 5, 2014 #3   PLEASE NOTE - WARNING   Once you have received your claim form - the Court timetable comes into force. Not that of the creditor or claimant. If you have requested information with them after the claim has been issued - or have entered into discussion with them and they say something like "We will put this on hold for a period of time". You cannot and must not ignore the timetable from the court.   This thread should serve as an example   http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?416202&p=4547677#post4547677   The OP in the case above was in communication with the CAG Vodafone rep. A claim was issued during this time. The Rep in good faith said he would ask the Claimant to put things on hold.... they did not.. the OP ignored advice from caggers to continue with the court timetable and did not submit a defence. The claimaint obtained a Judgment by default. Edited June 5, 2014 by citizenB     Bookmark   Report 3 yr AndyOrch changed the title to You have received a Court Claim ISSUED IN ENGLAND & WALES What you need to do   style="text-align: center;">     Thread Locked because no one has posted on it for the last 3638 days. If you need to add something to this thread then   Please click the "Report " link   at the bottom of one of the posts.   If you want to post a new story then Please Start your own new thread That way you will attract more attention to your story and get more visitors and more help    Thanks  This topic is now closed to further replies.  Share Follow3 Go to topic listing Next unread topic Recently Browsing   1 Cagger hugo1963 1,380 Members Viewed hugo1963 4 minutes ago   lolerz 4 hours ago   vicr76 8 hours ago   Moomoo11 Friday at 18:18   London1971 Friday at 11:26   AndyOrch Friday at 11:13   mollie5549 Thursday at 17:21   zyghom Thursday at 13:26   Magnusinfinity May 15   Newdogg06 May 14   Unique May 13   saberguy May 12   Mycathasfleas May 12   WantJustice May 9   Rain clouds May 8   MoltoModerato May 3   George2024 May 1   Badtimes123 April 30   LouLouDev79 April 29   northmonk April 29   mowbli April 29   WornOut55 April 27   paulhn757 April 24   UsedCarMan April 23   robertobaggio April 23   marksheff April 20   anotheruser0000 April 19   TT98 April 18   gatoradeqaz April 17   Murielme2 April 15   Frontera mixup April 11   BreadAndButter April 9   Karalius April 9   nurjeon03 April 9   Penglings April 8   Nick April 8   Edals April 5   thesixco April 1   lifttheveil March 30   dx100uk March 30   Stripeycat March 28   jon8214 March 27   sharkieuk March 25   HappyHolidays March 24   sandokan March 22   SimplyBeyondWords March 22   supernick90 March 20   iyam71 March 20   Nicky Boy March 18   StoryBoard March 18   Myth_007 March 15   kaze March 12   RodeMan March 8   eskimo123 March 7   JEDIKNIGHTS March 6   persha50 March 6   tobzas March 6   lancashirelad93 March 6   HappyDay2222 March 3   1penny March 3   nat8808 March 2   FTMDave March 1   lynzmeek February 25   Mike Mechanic February 25   Ethel Street February 24   Outoftoon February 23   anna may February 22   PJB5 February 22   iamgnome February 21   SweetCaroline February 20   EdinburghDude February 19   Grgw44 February 18   linbren03 February 15   whittymags February 9   flembo45 February 7   comebackjimmy February 6   MontyIsInnocent February 4   libra007 February 1   Eamonn77 January 31   xtonehari January 30   hlh49421 January 30   ceeferace January 29   catscratch January 29   Melbel January 25   Suggababe January 19   yorkshire_lufc January 17   ljrobinson69 January 16   makkyinuk January 15   yogii January 14   MadMat January 12   rocky_sharma January 4   mrskippy21 January 3   lookinforinfo December 29, 2023   europa16 December 28, 2023   MrsSl December 27, 2023   KP44UK December 23, 2023   Montego December 22, 2023   Worazz December 21, 2023   StopTheBullies December 21, 2023   hitman126 December 20, 2023   +1280 More   Have we helped you ...?                     Contact Us   Cookies Copyright Reclaim the Right Ltd - reg: 05783665Powered by Invision Community IPS spam blocked by CleanTalk.  
    • ITV News have got hold of an email and recording of a phone call between Vennells and Ron Warmington of Second Sight. People in the know are saying it's smoking gun everyone's been looking for. I love that this has come out the day before she appears at the inquiry. This should be interesting under oath. Paula Vennells' 'smoking gun' email reveals Post Office 'cover-up' | ITV News WWW.ITV.COM ITV News has acquired an email and recording of a phone call that suggests the former Post Office boss was aware of issues with the Horizon system...  
    • I think you may as well take the opportunity in your letter to tell them that if they won't take responsibility for it then you will see quotations for the repair, provide copies of the quotations to them and then proceed with your own repair and recover the money back from them in the courts if necessary. Separately, can I ask you whether this is the car that you then bought unseen and at some distance from you? Has it come with an MOT and if so what date was the MOT and who gave it the MOT? Have you read our used car guide
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RBS Ordinary Cause Citation - old Business Loan With Personal Guarantee


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Hi RHood

 

I've only asked for the SAR once, and I still don't have it. In fact the "Final Response" letter stated they didnt have my request.

 

Maybe RBS and their solicitor will produce something on the day, hopefully they will and it should be easy to level an accusation of conjecture, as I already have that letter from RBS saying they dont have and cant provide original agreements etc.

 

As far as I am concerned they they stated lies on the writ that could be construed as libelous.

 

Maybe once the dust settles I'll have a go at the solicitor as well.

 

Keep well

 

George

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Evening All

 

Just a quick update on latest events in my wee world.

 

It's now two weeks since I lodged my defences, and I have heard absolutely nothing from the court, the pursuer nor their agent.

 

I have no doubt this will change, but at least it's giving me a little time to carry out some research.

 

I will keep posting as news comes in.

 

Regards and Keep Well

 

George

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I am sure the internal document is on Paul Walton's Thread.

 

I will e-mail it to you George, I also lodged it as an EXHIBIT.

 

George you will not hear anything until after the AMENDED DEFENCES DATE when the other side will try and PULL OUT that is what happened to us they will send forms G6 G7 AND G9

 

G7 RULE 15.2(1)

 

G9 = OPPOSITION TO THE MOTION MAY BE MADE

 

IN THE EVENT OF A NOTICE OF OPPOSITION BEING LODGED the Sheriff clerk will assign a date ,time and place for the hearing parties on the motion.

 

George this will be your "homework" you only have a couple of days to reply to this to the court and as i had just started a new job I could not follow it up and get time off , passing the baton over to you to win the race.:D

 

Still got a faulty defualt notice will take up fight again after Christmas, might even get full SAR by then, its only been 7 months

since 1st request for it.:eek:

 

All the best

 

RHOOD

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Hi RHood

 

Thanks for the information about the forms, I intend taking this fight to the wire.

 

I do think I have a strong enough case, and also think that a full and final settlement may be a way of both parties saving face.

 

However, my opinion has shifted yet again, and I really want them nailed by the testicles to the mast of their rotten, stinking, and sinking ship.

 

They wanted a square-go so they're going to get a square-go.

 

Keep well

 

George

 

 

 

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Good evening RHood

 

SAR sent to RBS Head Office, which was their registered address.

 

The whole bank is a shambles. it seems to be key words in any sentence used to describe the procedures within RBS.

 

I've heard property is really cheap just now in Dubai, but alas my credit rating does me no credit at all. Just my luck eh??

 

Retards, oops meant Regards, that was me thinking about THEM again.

 

George

 

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  • 1 month later...

How time flies!!

 

It seems my last posting was 29 November, Ive been going hell for leather and to be honest for more than a little while I thought it was too much for me. My laptop getting stolen alomg with my briefcase didn't help, it has taken a wee while to get access again, the laptop was password protected, but some of my case files were in my briefcase.

 

Anyway, I'm now back on line, my adjustment to defences is due next week, and I have still not heard a peep from RBS nor their agents.

 

Now busy trying to make up for lost time and effort.

 

Will let you all know how it goes next week.

 

Regards

 

George

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Evening All

 

Is this a case of speak and the devil appears?

 

I received through the post this morning the pursuers final adjustments to the writ and pleadings, along with a covering letter.

 

Almost as an aside in the covering letter was the sentence "We will be seeking a continuation of the options hearing on DD/MM/YY with a period of further adjustments."

 

Am I assuming correctly that they are giving me notice that they will make an oral motion when the case is calling?

 

Also in the adjusted writ the following atatement was inserted after each article of condescendence, even the article confirming my name, adddress and jurisdiction, "The Defender's averments in answer are denied except insofar as coinciding herewith." I take it this statement is the legal equivalent of a lifeboat on a ship.

 

The one statement that is bothering me is the extra statement in Pleas in Law is as follows "The Defender's averments in answer are irrelevant et separtim licking in specification, they should not be admitted to probation"

 

Can someone explain that statement to me?

 

Kind Regards

 

George

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George, very good to hear from you again and that you are still fighting the good fight. Whatever expertise I might have is not in procedure, but a few observations that i hope you might find useful

 

  1. sending you their adjustments at the last minute is, as far as I can see, a typical tactic, as it gives less time to think out a response, especially for a litigant in person (ie not a lawyer)
  2. continuation? Well at least they were up front about it. I have read cases where they seek a continuation as the hearing begins. What's your view? Are you "ready to go"? Do you think they have had long enough to prepare now? Do you think anything could be gained by agreeing to this? Or lost? Really a matter of tactics
  3. "The Defender's averments in answer are denied except insofar as coinciding herewith." - they are saying that everything that you say is wrong, unless something you say happens to agree with something that they have said. Do they give any reason(s) for this view? Or is it just stated in a formulaic way
  4. "The Defender's averments in answer are irrelevant et separtim licking in specification, they should not be admitted to probation" - your arguments are so crap that the court shouldnt waste its time hearing them. In other words they are asking the court to throw out your defence without a full hearing. Its interesting though that at the same time they are seeking a continuation. I cant imagine they are doing this to make their case weaker. Can you? In any event, its PROBABLY (please note my lack of experience here) a standard legal statement at this stage (I mean if they dont ask the question ....)

Hope this helps and best of luck on the big day George, whenever that might be.

SFU:)

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Good afternoon SFU

 

Thanks for the input and the good wishes.

 

I played a little bit of brinksmanship with the adjustments, and hoped that they would send their's first by post rather than by Sherrif Officer. This meant I could deliver mine by hand after I had seen their adjustments.

 

It was a nice surprise for them to warn me they would seek a continuation, however I think they need to give notice of such a motion. Maybe I'm wrong though.

 

The continuation won't be in my best interest unless they spring something at the Options hearing but that seems unlikely since they are going to ask for a continuation. At this juncture I will oppose the continuation citing that it will not "secure the expeditious progress of the cause" especially as the party seeking the continuation is the Pursuer.

 

I was always skating on thin ice, my arguments were really flimsy until RBS sent me the letter stating that the cannot find any terms of agreements. My worry is that something is produced on the day with the excuse that Person A couldn't find them as Person B had them, however I have stated in my defences that any documents produced by the Pursuer will be believed and averred to be reconstructed and/or reconstructed.

 

The statement "The Defender's averments in answer are denied except insofar as coinciding herewith." seems to be a pretty standard legal statement as they even put it after the paragraph where I admitted my name and address on the writ as correct.

 

I also thought and still do think the statement "The Defender's averments in answer are irrelevant et separtim lacking in specification, they should not be admitted to probation" means that they think my argument is crap. Maybe they are right, but hopefully only the sherrif can decide that. It could even br that this is also a standard legal statement designed to scare the lay-person.

 

I find this all pretty tough going, not to mention stressful.

 

Thanks again SFU

 

Regards

 

George

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George ONLY the sheriff can make that decision. Their role is to ask him to make it. That is all. Did you not finish your case with "The pursuer's averments are irrelevant et separatim lacking specification, the action should be dismissed". I dont think its intended to scare - its just part of the game.

 

When they seek continuation, you might object on the basis of "how long is this matter supposed to go on for? Have they not had long enough". Following the decision at Manchester (see http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/240186-dissecting-manchester-test-case.html)

 

the Sheriff might be minded to give them longer. Bear in mind, however, at Manchester the application was brought by the debtors and not the creditor (as in your case) so the burden of proof was on the debtor to prove non-compliance.

 

Therefore, the possibility is always immanent that the OC cant find the agreement today but he might find it tomorrow, so they are unlikely to declare the account to be unenforceable for good and all. If, of course, the OC is seeking to enforce and says he cant find the agreement, then that is a very different matter, isnt it? :D

 

Also the main application of this case concerned what a lender has to send out in response to a s78 request. In my view they have been given far too much discretion by this judgement.

 

However, keep in mind that it has nothing to do with enforcement. Have a look at the Mitchell case (you can find a copy of this judgement here http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-2264418.html)

 

to get an example of the difficulties they face when the bank isnt defending (as at Manchester) but seeking to enforce. In this case what the bank had to show was that the prescribed terms were contained in the agreement signed by the debtor.

 

Thus BoS were actually in a stronger position than RBS, as they at least had a signed agreement. What the bank had to show was that the prescribed terms were embodied in the agreement signed by the debtor. Unfortunately the case never got a to a full hearing, BUT

 

  1. this was because the bank withdrew at the last minute
  2. I think it you read the judgement (esp para 9) you will see the likely reason for their withdrawal - they knew or strongly suspected they would lose.
  3.  

If they do come up with the documents on the day - without having disclosed first, you MUST at that point seek a continuation. They are presenting very significant new evidence and you have to have the opportunity to consider it.

 

And if they seek to suggest that reconstructions are ok on the basis of Waksman's judgement, remind them that Waksman was only ruling on s78 (see para 234 at Carey v HSBC Bank Plc [2009] EWHC 3417 (QB) (23 December 2009).

All the best again.

SFU:)

*

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  • 2 weeks later...

Good morning SFU and All

 

Thanks for your latest posting SFU, all this working away from home and stopping for one night to deal with my mail/post is a nightmare. My confidence is already low and continues to ebb.

 

My case is to be heard next week, and I have a letter from the Pusuer's Agent telling me that they will oppose my R22.1 not as it does not comply with the requirements of Chapter 22 of the Rules.

 

Their R22.1 Note is very concise, and even has the statement "The underlying agreement is a matter for the principle debtor, not the defender, therefore the averments anent the overdraft facility are irrelevant and should not be admitted to probation."

 

So bearing in mind that the letter from the bank in a final response to my complaint via the Financial Ombudsman states they cannot locate any documents or terms of business, am I correct in assuming that the solicitor is saying that any agreement applies to the bank and not to me.

 

To finish off for today I also have a copy of the Closed Record. So it looks like I'm going to be in court soon.

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I THINK what they are saying is that the agreement was entered into by your partner (and thus would be the principal debtor), and that you stood as guarantor? Is that correct - ie it was your partner who signed for the overdraft with you as guarantor? I think this is what you said at the outset of all this.

If this is the case, it looks to me (and I have no expertise in this at all) that what they are saying is that your complaints about the overdraft facility have no relevance as you were not a party to that agreement - you only guaranteed it. Bit like, your son buys a new car with you as guarantor. He defaults on the loan, which (lets say for now) is not consistent in some way with the Consumer Credit Act (missing prescribed terms maybe), and so they come after you as the guarantor. Now if this were the case, the problem for them would be that they are seeking to call in a guarantee for a loan that cannot be enforced against the principal debtor (your son in this fictitious example), so why should you meet your guarantee, and pay to an unenforceable loan. By extension the same thing could be said to apply to the case you are dealing with. Your partner took out an overdraft which they cant enforce (they dont have the letter), so why should you meet the guarantee?

I would

 

  1. question whether they have sought to enforce against your partner? I would guess not, as if you dont know where he is, the likelihood is that neither do they
  2. if they havent sought enforcement their defence will likely be "cant find him". Is that acceptable? I would guess it probably will be for the court (this doesnt rule out that they know perfectly well but that they wont get him to pay up so they are trying their luck with you. But, without further knowledge, it would be hard to prove that)
  3. question whether if they had sought to enforce it against your partner, what would their chances of success be? If they dont have the letter then I would have thought pretty small. Thus the agreement being unenforceable, can they enforce a guarantee signed for it. Can you enforce a guarantee for an unenforceable account, if you see what I mean?

The problem is whether the court will allow you to plead this, and that is way beyond me. Certainly it looks as if they will try to have any such pleading ruled out of order, but I would very much hope that a court would at least allow your argument to go forward.

HOWEVER George, this is way beyond my expertise, and I would maybe pm Ida/ Monty/ RHood/Maroondevo - and it could be beyond them. You really need someone with experience of this kind of case.

I am really puzzled by this one. TO ME, this seems a pretty desperate move on their part, but I could be 10000% wrong George, so you MUST get other advice.

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Hi SFU

 

I think the principle debtor is my old now-dissolved company, and that is probably why they cannot reach the principle debtor, so then they come after the guarantor who just happens to be me.

 

I can only hope that the sheriff allows me to put my argument forward, about that no original agreements nor documentation can be located, these are the banks words in a letter to me.

 

It does however seem that they are playing "hard", I hope that is only designed to scare me off.

 

Thanks for your help SFU it is appreciated.

 

Many thanks

 

George

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No bother George - glad you found my ramblings helpful.

Not sure its necessarily bad news. it might be the only way they can see to stop you - ie if the account is indeed unenforceable against the principal debtor, can they enforce against the guarantor. Hardly seems just - but what's that got to do with it? (Deathly laugh follows!)

I would seek out wider advice - I really would - as many of those who were helping out at the end of last year. PM them.

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Good Morning All

 

My Options Hearing is early next week, and to say I'm getting twitchy is an understatement.

 

There is now nothing more I can do, I've done nothing wrong neither legally nor morally, however that doesn't stop the process.

 

If anyone can offer some advice, guidance etc on what I should expect at the Options Hearing then that would be really appreciated.

 

For example, what do I call the Sheriff? Is it guided by gender, eg Sir or Madam? Or is it guided generically,eg "Your Honour"?

 

Is there a procedure for an Options Hearing?

 

Is there likely to be a moment when the Pursuer will slag my attempts to defend myself?

 

Will the Sheriff be understanding about me being a party litigant?

 

Will the Sheriff be a Jambo?

 

Regards

 

George

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dear George

 

The options hearing is relatively short and straightforward. The Sheriff will read the closed Record and decide on one of three options with respect to the next step which could be (i) a legal debate which is likely where there is legal arguments on agreement(s) (ii) a Proof (hearing of evidence) or (iii) a proof before answerw which is essentially the same as (ii).

 

In my case he directed a legal debate but it never got that far. I would always opt for the legal debate since it has to be followed by a proof or PBA.

 

Did you submit a Rule 22.1 note?

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Good Morning Monty

 

Nice to hear from you again.

 

The R22.1 Note was hand delivered to court and to the Pursuer's Agent. Although the Agent did write me a cover letter to say they would oppose my motion for debate as the R22.1 did not meet the provisions of the OCR.

 

Hopefully, it's a scare tactic, and that only the Sheriff can decide if it meets the provisons of the OCR or not.

 

They have also sid previously they will ask for a continuance.

 

Regards

 

George

 

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They are talking nonsense, the Sheriff does not have any flexibility at the options hearing other than to direct the case to one of the three options I stated above.

 

The Rule 22.1 Note ensures that your pleas are not repelled and this is your intention, irrespective if there are any minor mistakes on the R 22.1 note (which there are not). They have no powers to request a discontinuace so it will continue to legal debate, proof or PBA. The OCR process is cast in stone.

 

If they try any nonsense in court remind the Sheriff that you are a party litigant and that the Pursuers are trying to intimidate you.

 

Don't let them rattle you. Did you get a copy of Hennessy's book?

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