Pecuniary advantage by deception

[golfpro]

I'm in a bit of a bind. I was in a very sticky situation a few years ago and 'lied' on a credit card application form - said I owned a property (relatives) when I didn't. My financial situation has got progressively worse resulting in said debt being sold on (MBNA to Arrow Global). The latter have now become aware of this situation and aren't best pleased. They now want 'an explanation before they decide what course of action they should take further'. Obviously, they can't access any funds in said property, but I'm thinking worst scenario they could make this criminal re 'Obtaining pecuniary advantage by deception'. StevensDrake (Arrows Solicitors) seem to be playing hard ball on this. I'm not in any position to 'buy myself out of this'. Nor can I go bankrupt. Any suggestions other than getting some legal advice on this (I will do of course)? Should I suggest to them that if they do the above it will result in their getting nothing, so they're best advised to wait for me to be in a position to pay? Will that cut any ice? Suggestions would be much appreciated.

[Abby25]

Have you already admitted you "fudged" the facts - if not never admit liability?

 

If not, could you not just say that you weren't aware the app had this information on it. But if so, then if was obviously a genuine error in completion .. play stupid ??

 

Of try and think of an alternative explanation to show that you did not "knowingly and with deliberate intention", fudge the facts - which would the basis of any deception charge.

 

Abs

[golfpro]

I think the facts are pretty clear. Said I owned a property when i didn't - they've checked with the Land Registry. Bit black and white. Wasn't a genuine error. They've asked for an explanation. Not sure whether I should say its 'a fair cop' and face the medicine (would they inform the Police on this one if push came to shove, even though it would effectively negate any chance of they're recovering any monies?), or try and cut a deal (offer a £1 a month and then a much reduced settlement in due course)? That said they could still 'dob me in' out of vindictiveness I suppose even if I did that.

Edited June 11, 2009 by golfpro
Adding something

[Abby25]

Well, if you've admitted to them that you intentionally included false information in your application, or feel that there is absolutely no reasonable explanation you can give for ticking the "homeowner" box when you wasn't .. well it could be serious if they wanted to take that route.

 

Technically, they could say its fraud and deception - you knowingly provided false info upon which your suitability for credit was assessed, and granted. This is really a civil matter though, so wouldn't expect the Police to be interested - but someone with more legal knowledge will tell you what can and can't be instigated by them.

 

What I would do in your position, would be to try and keep this out of court at all costs - as they will use this in their case ... even just to show your "character" to get the judge on their side.

 

I would ignore discussing or putting in writing anything about this aspect of your account. Instead send them a budget planner, and reduced payment request, and see where that takes you.

 

Abs

[golfpro]

I would imagine the DCA and their solicitors will (hopefully) realise that if this goes to court they end up with nothing. Problem is I'm not in a position to offer them anything at present _ no job/income, property, assets. I have already provided the necessary planner (Steven's Drake didn't like and started digging hence this). I agree re keeping it out of Court. I'm not too bothered by Civil (I have nothing to attach), but Criminal is another matter (i.e. Custodial sentence).

[PGH7447]

Have you requested the agreement yet to see if it is enforceable regardless of the miscreant entry on it?

[golfpro]

Have you requested the agreement yet to see if it is enforceable regardless of the miscreant entry on it?

 

Yes. It was an MBNA one, but now admitted. The fact that Steven's Drake had access to it gave them so ammo it seems. I'm inclined to offer them £1 a month and then a final settlement (when I can afford) of a small percentage. Hopefully that will be perceived as better than nothing. I'm certainty not going to admit anything re 'Fraud' in writing. That would be a bit silly.

[Abby25]

Thats fab advice from PGH (I sort of forgot to mention have you had the agreement checked !!)

 

This would be a good point to start, get the CCA letter off to them with your £1 - post up the agreement when it comes, and you'll have all the help you need to see if there's any aspect of the document that doesn't meet the terms of the CCA74 - and then my friend you may be able to turn the tables right back on them ... !!!

[jimdev1976]

Just a quick one, but is the homeowner box ticked on the application or the CCA? they may have the info. from an application, however just becuase you filled in an application doesn't mean you took the credit. Wouldn't they still need to produce a valid CCA?

[PGH7447]

Yes they would

[golfpro]

Would all this apply even if I've admitted the debt. I'm thinking if I play hardball with them they can hold the Police over my head as a final resort.

[PGH7447]

Its a civil matter not a police matter

[count orlok]

anyone can make a mistake, it is easy to wrongly tick a box. Surely they would have checked before lending you the money. Its like you walking into a bank and "saying i've just won 2 million on the lotto, could you lend me a monkey till the chaque clears" they are not going to say yes unless they check it.

[golfpro]

It involved more than ticking a box - think I used the wording 'owner' (unfortunately). In my defense I was doing the customary robbing Peter to pay Paul and at my wits end.

[golfpro]

RE any CCA, Stevens Drake provided me with a one page copy of the MBNA CC application form, signed by myself. After receiving this I started corresponding with them over the debt - I'm assuming I've admitted liability?

[harrassed senior]

The purpose of seeing if a VALID CCA exists is not to check if you owe the money, but to confirm as to its' enforceability in a Court of Law.

 

If you can post the Application Form up, after first removing personal information then the experts on here can let you have their opinions. If the alleged agreement is not enforceable, it really does not matter (in my opinion) what was on the application form, even if you did own your home, with the agreement being unenforceable by a court they could never get their hands on the house anyway!

[rameses_qc]

Its a civil matter not a police matter

 

No. The OP got a loan by making a false declaration. He/She obtained a loan by deception, which comes under the theft act

Police WOULD be interested, but whether the creditor would take it that far, I and no-one else would know. What explanation can be given? No Idea

[patrickq1]

were u under any medication at the time due to your medication and speaking with them at the time they may have suggested you say you own your own home in order to help you successfuly complete your application....

patrickq1

[golfpro]

Unfortunately, I don't have a scanner or I would. Its basically an MBNA 'application form' (from July 2004) with some terms and conditions in very small print down one left hand column.

 

Not under medication. Just under extreme stress and not thinking at all clearly. I never intended to cut and run with the monies (always intended to pay back - bit of a crap fraud if I didn't - accordingly I wouldn't think it was technically 'theft'), it just didn't work out that way. I'd still pay it back if I could.

 

Re Rameses, why do people get a Bankruptcy Restriction Order for suchlike and not just get pursued criminally for theft or fraud when they do this or similar? What is the point of a BRO then? Just wondering.

Edited June 11, 2009 by golfpro

[Bill Shidding]

Hi

 

I'm thinking if I play hardball with them they can hold the Police over my head as a final resort

 

In a Blackmailing type way you mean?

 

Ie - Pay us or else?

That won't look good in the eyes of plod.

 

It is still up to the lender to "check" your credit files etc, before making a commitment to lend.

 

Bill

[patrickq1]

yes it is a worse offence for a company to not report a crime and t resort to blackmail....so whitchever way they will dig a big hole for themselves,ask for the CCA , hopefully you have the threats in writing,remember if you were on medication,this will help

go try and find a freind who has a scanner and scan and e mail to yourself then post on here

[golfpro]

Will try re the scanner.

 

Seemingly a bit of it going around by the way.. (Fraud) on application for credit card - bankruptcy : Bankruptcy Technical Questions

 

Just to add this for anyone (for future reference)...

 

Bankruptcy restriction orders

 

Under the Enterprise Act you will usually be discharged from bankruptcy after one year. New rules have been brought in that give the court power to make a Bankruptcy Restriction Order against you if the Official Receiver feels your behaviour has been dishonest in some way or there has been "unfit" conduct. A Bankruptcy Restriction Order can last for between 2 and 15 years and will appear on a public register. If you break the order it can be a criminal offence.

Unfit conduct can include:

Not keeping proper accounts for your business in the two years before you go bankrupt

Gambling

Trading whilst you knew you couldn't pay your debts

Taking out credit which you knew you couldn't pay

Giving away your assets to avoid them being included in the bankruptcy

Paying some creditors over others

Failing to co-operate with the Official Receiver

Concealing property from the Official Receiver.

A Bankruptcy Restriction Order means you are not allowed to:

Apply for credit over £500 without telling the lender about the order

Become an MP or local councillor

Be a director of a company or form a new company without permission

Be an Insolvency Practitioner.

A Bankruptcy Restriction Order does not stop the Official Receiver from taking criminal proceedings for an offence such as selling goods you have on a hire purchase agreement or putting false information on a loan application.

Edited June 11, 2009 by golfpro

[Huff&Puff]

TBH I'd be surprised if the police would be interested in a 5 year old application form unless there was other evidence of criminal intent. They certainly weren't bothered about MPs expenses, some of which would appear to be much more serious, and more blatent, than this.

[golfpro]

Can I just query something. I've shown my CCA (its an application form) to several people. All say the terms and conditions are quite illegible - they're in tiny print (I'd scan it and put up but I can't find anyone I know with a scanner). I've admitted the debt (to Stevens Drake), BUT will the illegibility of the MBNA CCA now nullify all potential action? Just wondering. Its a bit retrospective I know,but thought it prudent to enquire.