Account numbers - are they relevant

[Montoonie1]

Think I might have posted this orignally to the wrong issue group. Or, really, no one is able to answer...

 

But, I'll try again here (with some additional detail) if I may:

 

Received a s78 response for a credit card in the prescribed time limit, which is OK. The account number, however, does not match the credit card number or the account number under which the request was made.

 

The original agreement was for a store card (Debenhams). In 2006 received a letter stating the store card would be replaced by a credit card and that unless a refusal for the card was put in writing, the card would be sent. No refusal was offered, the card was duly sent.

 

Does the agreement for the original store card automatically constitute an enforceable agreement for the new credit card account even if the account numbers do not match?

 

My thinking is: account numbers identify uniquely a person within a lender's system and it is probable that changing an account number is a referencing exrecise within that system. If it's not then and personal details are transported and the old account "closed"?

 

As stated above, the letter of response from Santander (the account administrator) refers to a different account number than that on the Credit Agreement (and if on the agreement forms part of the contract?).

 

I can find nothing in the CCA (not that I've looked at everything) which refers to account numbers and whether these are unique to the ACCOUNT and therefore represent for contract purposes unique executibale agreements. If the account number is unique to the account does that mean that a signed executable agreement for one account (number) cannot constitute an executable agreement under another account (number).

 

Anyone, any ideas or previous examples of this?

 

M1:-)

[BankFodder]

I would say that the account number identifies the CCA contract and the bank is required to supply you evidence that the formalities of the particular contract did satisfy the 1974 act requirements.

If they can show that the new number merely replaced the old number but that it was the same agreement then they might have a valid position.

 

This is just a point of view

[Montoonie1]

Thanks Bankfodder.

 

I'll drop them a very polite line or two with your comment in mind and see what the response is.

[djc]

montoonie1

 

it would appear that when you enter into an agreement for a credit card then that transaction is allocated a unique account reference number.

 

we have experienced ourselves when challenging the enforceability of our credit card account that the provider will totally ignore the original credit card account and will only wish to provide details of any subsequent card accounts that it has issued to you. almost in every circumstance they have failed to obtain from you a new terms and conditions that are present when you start useing those new cards, and obviously you had never been asked to sign those new conditions and neither did you ever ask for them.

 

i believe the simple answer to this is if they fail to provide a copy of the original agreement when requested then they are clearly in breach of the consumer credit act. and most credit consumer litigants would be pleased to go to court on that basis to prove and win the day for unenforceable agreement.

 

note that i have no legal experience just hopefully common sense and first hand knowledge.

 

djc

[djc]

montoonie1

just a further thought concerning your original question 'account numbers are they relevant' answer 'yes'

every time that a credit card is changed from ie visa card to master card etc.... then the provider changes the account number that identifies that card and you. but we believe that in law the original terms and conditions that you would have signed up to cannot be transferred to a new account without your express agreement in writing.

 

djc

Edited June 10, 2009 by djc
spellig error

[Montoonie1]

Hi djc

 

Thanks for your input. It would seem to me to be common sense that if the account number is assigned to the agreement it needs to be unique and if changed would require a new agreement. But whoever said the law makes any sense!

 

This change was from a store card to a credit card and I know the two things to be materially different in purpose and scope (Ooo! I seem to be forming an additional argument:rolleyes:!)

 

I have written a polite note asking for clarification and I will have to wait for a response just to see what happens. I get the impression the more legally strident the response, usually the smaller leg they have to stand on - I'll post with results.

[djc]

moontoonie1

 

was the original store card(debenhams) underwritten by santanda or have they only come into the frame later through acquisitionof the original provider.

 

djc

[Montoonie1]

The orignal agreement was under GE money.

[djc]

montoonie1

 

i may be wrong but should one be s.a.r to G E MONEY unless they were acquired by santanda.

hope this does't muddy the waters.

 

djc

[Montoonie1]

Hi djc

 

I see what you mean. The S78 request was made to GE money: that is the address on the credit card statement and any previous communication was to, and from, 'GE Money'.

 

Something has clearly happened, the letter that accompanied the S78 return was headed "Santander Cards". The statement of account was for GE Money and "Signed on behalf of GE Money". It may be that Santander has an outsource agreement to administer GE Money accounts - my wife (it's her account) has had no correspondence to suggest Santander has aquired GE Money - but then GE Money has had significant credit crunch problems in the US with some of the biggest exposures in the mortgage securitisation market. Also, I know that many senior GE managers were let go last year and this year in the UK. So, maybe Santander, the great mopper upper, has mopped up GE Money in the UK.

 

Anyway, your previous thoughts have turned on the lights! So thank you. I reflected on my statement, "purpose and scope" and suddenly remembered that that credit account allows for cash transactions and has a separate interest rate that is shown ("Cash Transactions") on all the card statements. But as the original account was a store card, this was not included on the agreement:rolleyes:. Store cards don't have a cash withdrawal facility.

 

In addition, as the change over occured there was a small debit on the old account, which my wife paid with the new card on the advice of a GE representative - this would suggest that the two accounts ARE mutually exclusive as you can't pay to an account with that account's own money (how good would that be:D?). This will require a SAR request to confirm.

 

Is this case closed?

[djc]

montoonie1

 

i personally would wait a little longer before taking further action until one of our other more legally skilled operatives have had a look and maybe able to guide you further on your quest for justice.

 

good luck i will tickle the site team scale to see if they are able to help on this thread

 

djc

[Montoonie1]

djc

 

Of course, I'm not going in there head first. There is a polite letter out to test the waters and get some clarification from Santander first. You can't rush these things.

 

M1

[djc]

happy hunting and good luck

 

djc

[willtheywontthey]

subbing - also have some similarities in my thread from yesterday if anybody wished to pop over and give some advice?http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/203889-legaility-account-name-changes.html