MBNA v Blood Money

[Blood Money]

Having an interesting time with MBNA at the moment - lots of threats, 'might go for a charging order', 'been checking up on your bank a/c and house', 'we've never lost a court case', etc, etc.

 

I've tried the CCA route & I'm waiting for the clock to run down on the 2nd CPR letter. Decision time then - wait & see what happens or go to the court for non disclosure of the agreement.

 

MBNA have ignored every request for a copy agreement except for the 2nd 'now in dispute' letter. I'm sure I'm on firm ground here but realised I've never posted up the agreements (two of them) to get 2nd opinions.

 

As far as I can see one is just an application form & the other is a request for a 2nd card holder, not even the original application. Bit late now but confirmation that non of these are valid/enforcable would be appreciated.

 

Cheers. BM

 

DOC190309.pdf

DOC190308.PDF

[Blood Money]

Just a thought - I had paid off the cards a few years ago & actually ended up with credit balances. I wrote to them asking them to close the accounts. They never did & when we needed money again I used the cards. Trying to find copies of the letters we sent to them now. If they have ignored the request to close the accounts does this help if we end up in court?

[Blood Money]

Bump

[diamondgirl]

Have to nip out for a while but I'll be back and I'm sure in the meantime someone will be long some of the caggers don't log on until late.

 

DG

[Blood Money]

Not been active for a bit - trying to sort out a job.

 

MBNA getting nasty now. Anyone heard of Optima Legal?

 

MBNA have ignored requests under CPR (2nd letter just expired). I followed this up with a letter saying little option to go to court to ask for disclosure of the CCA Agreement & offered to visit offices to view on their premises.

 

Their response was a letter from Optima threatening legal agtion & immediate charging order against us/house.

 

I have looked at the links & think I just have an application form here & not an enforcable CCA. Can someone with experience of interpreting these things please confirm whether the forms attatched to the original post are enforcable? I'm just not confident to be sure.

 

Desperately need to know - either have to cave in now OR if they are not enforcable I will fight the B*****d's to the end.

 

Please have a look - now very urgent.

 

Cheers

[Blood Money]

Thanks DG. I'll come back later. Just need some confirmation that I am on firm ground here. If the agreement is unenforcable I am not going to let them bully me - but -if it can be enforced then I wil have to come to some agreement with them.

[PGH7447]

cant really tell the copy is not that good sorry

[cashins]

Sorry I cant read it either.

 

David

[Blood Money]

Nor can I & I have the 'original' copy to look at! Just cant get a definitive answer as to whether it is valid or not.

 

Can we work it out from the dates? Is there a date from which MBNA were doing it right? For example, can we say any application form issued before 2004 was unenforcable? Does the agreement need their signature as well to be valid? Only got mine on it. The front and back of my wifes application form don't even match in size. I really dont want these bully's to get away with it. Their attitude is a disgrace.

[cashins]

Copies of document regulations stipulate that it should be easily legible.

 

MBNA's retrieval systems are poor. If they haven't got one you can read, they have a problem. In theory they should have got their act together by 2005 but I wouldn't bet on it!

 

Have they sent you a default notice?

 

David

[Blood Money]

Thanks for reply Dave.

 

Have had 'Important Default Notification' letters warning of registration of default notices but not a notification of one being registered yet. Is this helpful?

 

Can I turn your last answer on its head. If they should have got their act together by 2005 is there a date before which any agreement from MBNA is known to be invalid? Both ours are a lot older than this.

 

I know they should be legible but I don't want to base a defence just on this one point if I can help it. I would be much happier knowing it is invalid.

Edited July 15, 2009 by Blood Money
didnt acknowledge help from Cashins

[izzitme101]

well on the fist one, which is clearly an app form, after studying it some i dont see any prescribed terms at all.

Clearly states its an app form though, but im not as experienced as some here either.

[Blood Money]

Hi Izzitme

 

Both are app forms & one is for an additional card by the look of it - so not even the original app form. I posted these up on the 'MBNA Caggers' thread a while back when everyone wanted examples of MBNA agreements. Comment then was that some app forms are valid. Depends whether proscribed terms are there in correct form. I'm just not experienced enough to know whether they are valid or not. Got T & C on a second sheet. Very difficult to read though & again - don't know if valid. Could be a cut & paste - just don't know.

 

What I do know is they don't have the original anymore - but apparently they can still enforce using a copy if they can prove front & back are from same document & proscribed terms are present. No lenders signature though.

 

Feel like I'm flying this one by the seat of my pants at the moment.

[Blood Money]

Off to bed now - giving me a headache. I'll try & pick this up again tomorrow.

[izzitme101]

prescribed terms have to be within the fours corners I.E the signed document.

loan/limit amount

frequency of repayments/how much

interest rate (NOT APR)

 

I think thats all the prescribed terms, hopefully someone will confirm or correct me.

 

I would argue that with no lenders sig, and no prescribed terms, they obviously did not approve the loan/cc and instead gave you a gift token.

 

Again im not to experienced, so will need someone to confirm

[gazbo34]

Hi bloodmoney, from what i can make out you have one of the iffy agreements according to other caggers, in your terms and conditions it refers to paragraphs that arent within the 4 corners of the cca. I think it's paragraph 4 were it mentions your minimum payment and then refers to clauses 9.4 10.5 and 10.6, where are they and what do they say????They should be within the 4 cornors of the agreement and there not, that's my understanding from reading through other threads anyway. Hope that helps

 

Gazbo

[Blood Money]

Thanks Izzitme & Gazbo, I am going to have to try & pick this agreement apart with a magnifying glass! Need to be 100% sure before I take these bullys on in court. Wish they would just go away.

 

If anyone can give a definitive answer on whether these agreements are enforcable that would be great.

 

Think my next move is to push for a copy of the CCA under CPR disclosure from Optima. If they threaten legal action and still ignore the CPR request they are not going to impress a judge & can't claim to be doing everything possible to avoid court action.

 

Any thoughts? Wait for the paperwork or take the fight to them?

 

BM

[diamondgirl]

Sorry I didn't get back to you last night as it was late when I got back.

 

If your copy is as bad as it shows when posted then it is not particularly legible and a copy is supposed to be legible.

 

You could write to them and state it is not a legible copy and you require them to produce a copy that is.

 

I would also push Optima for a copy CCA under the CRP Disclosure.

Remember it is up to them to provide you with all necessary paperwork.

Make sure you advise them that all communication must be in writing.

 

I'll catch up with your thread later as I'm getting ready for work now and not home till after 9 pm

 

DG

Edited July 16, 2009 by diamondgirl
added to

[Blood Money]

Cheers DG,

 

My thought is to demand a copy from Optima under CPR. From their website it looks like they are more geared to cheap bulk processing than getting involved in protracted individual correspondence. I guess they will either ignore my request & continue with their action, or pass this back to MBNA if they are unable to send a true copy.

 

I would also rather instigate an action to force disclosure rather than wait for them to go for a charging order. They still need a CCJ though & to get that they will have to produce the true CCA.

 

BL

[cashins]

Have had 'Important Default Notification' letters warning of registration of default notices but not a notification of one being registered yet. Is this helpful?

 

VERY: The one you are looking for will say - default notice served under Section 87(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

Post it up - many of their default notices are defective as well!

 

Can I turn your last answer on its head. If they should have got their act together by 2005 is there a date before which any agreement from MBNA is known to be invalid? Both ours are a lot older than this.

 

They produce many different versions over the years, most before 2004 are junk.

 

Cheers

 

David

[Blood Money]

Hi Dave,

 

Will wade through the piles of trash they have sent us to see if actually have a default yet. Both agreements are well before 2004. What does everyone thing about getting in with the CPA demand via the courts 1st - if the solicitors won't send one & continue to ignore the requests.

 

BM

[Blood Money]

MBNA definately dont like me. Don't think I'm on their christmas card list anymore. Got a 14 day letter on the other a/c now. Letter is still full of may's, if's and might's. Strange thing it is different to the letter on the 1st a/c. Perhaps someone got bored & used a different template for a change. Just going to have to deal with them both at the same time now.

[diamondgirl]

Been having a quick look around at work and we don't seem to have much movement from Optima so I can't advise too much on them.

I would still go for a legible CCA, I know my eyesight isn't brilliant but it was still pretty illegible with my specks on and I don't have any problems reading other things.

I would push them for a legible copy.

Any info you want that I can provide via my job I will do for anyone who asks me specific questions especially any that the caggers may have problems sorting out although everyone seems to be pretty well clued up on everything.

As I've said on other posts without the caggers help I would probably have a CCJ and Charging Order by now.

DG

[Blood Money]

Thanks DG. If it's not a rude question what sort of work do you do & how do you come across Optima? How can you help?

 

I am copying Optima in on all previous correspondence & repeating the CPR request & offer to view the originals at their offices. They are going to look like right prats if they go to court having refused. Crafting my letter now.

 

Anyone else on here had any dealings with Optima?

[diamondgirl]

No your not being rude. Following my recent redundancy the only job I was offered was for a debt elimination company which I took just because I needed the money.

I would not recommend anyone use one of these companies as they are only doing the same as we on the forum are doing only they are charging an arm and leg to do it and there is still no guarantee that they will win and certainly they cannot prevent court action.

I hate the job so I deal with DCAs all day (just as well that they don't know who I am or they would be hounding me at work for money)

The people I work with are a nice bunch and if I ask them anything they will tell me. The legal team are rather good in what they do. So if I can help in finding something out I will.

DG