Cabot financila (Vanquis CC) court summons is it too late to use CCA 1974?

[pt2537]

I'm going to wait for the judgement to arrive, then I will post it up and see where to go from there.

 

I found the whole hearing on Friday annoying, frustrating and ultimately soul destroying.... I blame myself as much as anyone else. I was so nervous and short of confidence that I took a Mckenzie friend, a retired solicitor with me who clearly hadn't listened to a word I had said over the last 2 months, and pretty much made a real fluff of it. when it came to the crunch, I think I would have done better myself... so it's pretty much my own damn fault.

Get your appellants notice in and get the judgment transcribed Hunni

 

Although the time limits are set for filing the appellants notice, you MUST act promptly and not delay unnecessarily.

 

so do not wait as you will cause yourself harm.

 

If you are not sure, then get a direct access barrister on a CFA or a specialist firm on the same

 

CFA is no win no fee, so that you are protected from costs

[citizenB]

Oh no, hunni, I am so very sorry. I would add my name to the list of those advising you to appeal.

 

I am sure BRW has posted up an "appeal check list" somewhere, I will go and find it for you. You have a strict timeline to adhere to as pt2537 has pointed out.

[citizenB]

If the significance of the Go Debt case is important I am willing to purchase it if someone can tell me what the main thrust of the case is.

 

I'm sure if it is useful for me then it will be a worthwhile investment.

 

Thanks for the response PT. I've seen a number of references but no detail so that's helpful.

 

The Law Society Library is a private library for solicitor members of the Law Society of England and Wales. In order to use the library, you will need to provide evidence that you are a member, or employed by a member.

 

Just checked Law Society site and the library is not accessible for us plebs it seems.

 

vjohn I was looking for a copy of this case to use in court against cabot, id be happy to contribute if someone with access to the Law society can purchase it

 

Hadituptohere

 

If we were able to purchase this, would we be able to put it in the CAG library ?

 

If so, I too would be more than happy to contribute.

[citizenB]

Here you go...

 

 

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-2927407.html

 

This is just some general advice on how to handle an Appeal (taken from one of my other ramblings elsewhere on CAG), which may be of interest to both you/Fred and any other genuine Caggers that may like to know.

 

Fred has 21 days to get his Appeal in, and whilst it may seem daunting, it's not as bad as it seems, provided he gets started and works through all of the steps to get everything ready in time for the 21 day Deadline.

 

This is the bit of CPR Fred needs to start reading:

 

PART 52 - APPEALS - Ministry of Justice

 

This is the CPR Supplement that goes with the above:

 

PRACTICE DIRECTION 52 – APPEALS - Ministry of Justice

 

A key admin step is to get a Transcript of the Judgement going. That should not be too expensive, maybe £100-£150 approx. You will need that for the Appeal. That needs Form EX107. Here's the link:

 

EX107

 

That is just a simple Form where you state what the Claim was, and say which Transcriber you will like to use. I can recommend a very good one, but I need to advise the name via PM not in open Forum. The person is listed in the Approved List of Court Transcribers and has been very helpful now to several Caggers.

 

If Fred can afford it, I would also recommend that he has the Full Hearing Transcribed in addition to the Judgment.

 

To clarify, the Hearing is always divided into two key areas when it comes to Transcribing the Tape(s):

 

• The Main Hearing (less the Judgment).
  

• The Judgment.
  

There can only ever be one Judgment Transcription, because the Judge has the right to check and adjust that, before allowing it to be released. In my experience, be prepared for some changes there to soften how things were actually said in Court! But there's nothing you can do, just get a copy of the Judgment, and allow time to organise that and be prepared that the Judge will want to see it to approve it, before Fred sees it. Best therefore to crack on with that ASAP.

 

I would advise trying to get the Main Hearing as well, although that will cost a lot more, depending on the number of spoken words and the time the Hearing took. But this can prove invaluable. Fred needs this if he can afford it.

 

Transcriptions can be paid for by the Court, if Fred is on a very low income etc, but he has to pay for them first before he can re-claim the costs. It also takes a long time to get any money back from the Courts.

 

On this subject, see CPR Part 52, 5.17 and 5.18 (that's all in the 2nd link above).

 

N460

 

This is a Form the Judge has to complete if an Appeal was requested and refused on the day. In that case, the Judge is supposed to complete an N460 straight away, rather than being asked.

 

So, if needed, get the Court to chase up the Judge to complete Form N460. That Form is very simple, and just sets out the reasons for refusing the Appeal. Those reasons may also be mentioned in the Judgment as well.

 

There will be an N24 Order that will appear soon too, that's a bit like a précis of the Judgment but should not be confused with the Judgment Transcription which will be much longer than what you see on the N24 Order. Fred will also need that N24 Order for his Appeal Application. That should arrive in the next few days anyway.

 

Fred should be able to get that lot underway in maybe a day or two at most, then you can work on getting his N161 Appellant's Notice ready.

 

The N161 Appellant's Notice is just another Form, many on CAG will help you with that, so don't worry. Here's the link:

 

N161 Appellant's Notice

 

That just leaves the key issues of:

 

(1) Grounds for Appeal:

 

This is the main bit that you need to get sorted within the 21 days, and have it ready to go along with the Appeal Bundle.

 

The main initial documents, provided you get them on time, will comprise the following bits:

 

N161 Appellant's Notice (including Grounds for Appeal)

N24 Order

N460 Reasons for Appeal Refusal (if needed)

Transcript of Judgment

 

It is VIP that you get that lot in within 21 days. Otherwise you risk having to make an Appeal Out of Time, which is a PITA. Get it in on time, and you then you have a further 14 days to follow on with the full Appeal Bundle.

 

That Bundle will include a Skeleton Argument and a routine pile of bumf that relates to the Judgment being Appealed. Most of the docs Fred will have had from the first time around, so the Appeal can be considered for permission to Appeal if that is also needed (i.e. if permission was refused at the Hearing).

 

(2) Route for Appeal:

 

This is just technical and will depend on what Judge you had, and the class of the Judgment the Judge made. It is all listed in the 2nd link above, or just click here:

 

PRACTICE DIRECTION 52 – APPEALS - Ministry of Justice

 

This is Fred's chance to put right what the buggers did wrong the first time out.

 

Get this right, and the opposition will be more worried than you are right now once they know you are Appealing.

 

The most this will cost Fred right now is the Judgment Transcription. He can always back out before the 21 day deadline and just accept the original Judgment, so do keep going and use the time to decide before the 21 days are up.

 

However, don't waste any time getting going, as 21 days is not long and you cannot afford to waste any of it.

 

Once the Appeal has been lodged, then you have 14 days to get the Skeleton Argument done, which is also key, but 2 weeks is a long time.

 

After that, it could take weeks/months to get to Appeal, and in that time you and Fred may be able to find the money for a Barrister who will take it over and take the battle back to them. If you win, you will get the original Judgment overturned, and you should get back all of the Costs, both for the Appeal, and also for the original Hearing.

 

A Barrister can later tweak your Appellant's Notice and your Skeleton, so your main aim is to get them in and good enough to get permission to Appeal (assuming you need permission, if the Appeal was not refused at the Hearing, then you may not need to ask for permission to Appeal and can just go ahead and submit the Appeal)...the Barrister can make the paperwork better later if you end up being able to afford a Barrister down the line.

 

Best of luck with this.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[Valdez is Coming]

Subbing.....this is outrageous!

As this clearly is an issue of great importance to many future court actions, l too would be happy to contribute towards getting this Go Debt account and having it in the templates library for all of us to discuss/disect.

COME ON......any others willing to chip in?

This is important for all of us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[frettful38]

Subbing.....this is outrageous!

As this clearly is an issue of great importance to many future court actions, l too would be happy to contribute towards getting this Go Debt account and having it in the templates library for all of us to discuss/disect.

COME ON......any others willing to chip in?

This is important for all of us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

I'm willing val, count me in:D, anything to help CAG and others as it has turned my life around 360 degrees. So if I can be of any help please ask.

[middenmess]

Me too plus a small contribution towards the cost of the trial/judgement transcript if required--just ask.

[freethemice]

It does seem that if everyone were true to their word (me included) and be prepared to chip into a pot of money specificaly assigned for purchasing and publishing important documents like Crutchley v Go Debt this could be something the site could consider.

I do not believe this would affect normal donations but merely be a way of pooling our resources to fight the big banks.

 

What do you think site team?

[freethemice]

This may be a route to obtain the above paper

 

Requests for information

 

Freedom of information requests and comments on the Society’s code of practice should be sent to:

Information Compliance Manager, The Law Society, 113 Chancery Lane, London WC2A 1PL. DX 56 Lon/Ch Lane. 020 7320 5662

 

The Act does not yet apply to the Law Society, but we believe in being open about what we do and we make a lot of information publicly available through our website.

[Jameson78]

Subbing

[letsdothis]

i believe its between 20-30 pounds to get the case, but dont quote me as its a while since i needed to obtain a case from there

 

I am happy to pay for this in full if the max is £30 - I have learned so much off here and part of what I have read, has resulted in £1600 of debt reduced down to £150 after all the charges were refunded off the original balances.

 

£30 is less than what I had to pay a month on the above debts.

[cosalt]

subbing, good luck hunni, looks like I am going to appeal too !

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/177130-repo-order-help-defence-11.html#post2943855

[BeauBrummie]

Just putting my twopenneth in ;

 

Hunni, I am really sorry you have suffered this travesty - I too have suffered the same fate at the hands of a uninformed DJ and and an onslaught of Cabot's "bending of the truth" I did say this on my thread that it seems to be a trend with DJ's who do not want to listen to LIP's

 

Nevertheless I am still fighting - my appeal comes up next in the next few weeks or so, while I have been waiting I have been learning.

 

For the record - I have attempted to get a copy of the Crutchley v Go Debt Judgment and was told by the Law Society that as it was a "Unrecorded Case" - me as an LIP was not entitled to have a copy - I would have to contact the recorder at the court where the judgment was handed out. I have not done this. If anyone has another avenue from the legal profession I think it would be very usefull to us right now.

 

The cost of submitting an Appellant Notice is £120 and as you have been advised, your first action should be to obtain a copy of the transcription of the judgment at a rough cost of £3.20 per 65 words - this will not be available for a few days yet, so take your time to consider your options - you will have 21 days to lodge a notice of appeal should you decide to do so.

 

Good Luck

 

Beau

Edited May 25, 2010 by BeauBrummie
More info added

[hunni2006]

thanks Beau

 

It's the possibility that they could win the next round and saddle me with a huge amount of costs that is putting me off atm... (something I was protected from to a certain extent in the first place because it went through as a small claim - although they still managed to add on over $500)

 

I know that they are in the wrong... but proving it and getting a Judge to listen to you without pre judging is another matter entirely.

[Hadituptohere]

With the help and info that people are willing to contribute (ie cost of purchasing case transcripts etc) you really do have to look at the costs as being reclaimable when youve won, there are several huge misdirections that the judge has applied. This really needs appealing.

 

Hadituptohere

[determindator]

I made an appeal Hunni even after a Judge gave a direction at the first hearing, BTW I thought it was the first and final hearing Lol, I did not have permission to appeal. I appealed through a solicitor and that's where all the reasons for appeal are culminated and sent to the Court. I then had an interim hearing where the nice Judge said to me, I've read your reasons for appeal and do you think you have good reason to appeal? I answered yes and want to go ahead. The Judge then gave permission to appeal and a date would be sent for the hearing. This is a good time to present the case in reflection and making your side heard. If i'm correct to think an amount is legitimately owed to the original creditor, this is the time for you to calculate what this amount is i.e less unfair charges, interest etc. This all becomes part of the case on the day, you are in affect making the creditor accountable, taking them to Court. You can think of what is affordable for you in a reasonable amount of time. Don't be too concerned about the word 'reasonable' it is calculated on an individual basis.

 

I will be in touch

 

X

[hunni2006]

quick update, & warning to others......

 

having been unable to afford to appeal the descision of the DJ I resigned myself to having to pay the Judgement.

 

At the hearing the solicitor for the otherside told me that they would be in touch to arrange a suitable repayment shcedule.

 

I received a letter from Morgans dated 18th june giving me 14 days in which to contact them with my offer for repayment.

 

I wrote back on 25th of June with my offer & waited for a response.

 

Having still received no reply by yesterday, I telephoned their office, and was told that they hadn't received my letter, (surprise, surprise) I went over details of my income & expenditure & re stated the offer I had made in writing, which was accepted and agreed.

 

At the end of the conversation is when the shock came. As the person on the other end was telling me that they would send confirmation of the agreement out in the post, he calmly said to me, "you do know that we have a charging order on your house don't you?"

 

Morgans have outdone themselves the sneaky b*stards, they applied to the court behind my back on 24th June for an interrim charging order which, according to the court was granted on 7th July with a hearing scheduled in August. Apparently, I will be liable for the cost of this application, and the subsequent hearing, and these will also be added to the debt that they shouldn't be getting from me either......

 

Life is a BITCH

[middenmess]

I think a click on the triangle to get some advice from the site team is in order here as it would seem that you have been turned over here!

 

An 'out of time' appeal might be an option and would probably prove cost effective when considering what they are now charging you.

 

As you say ''sneaky b*stards''

[hunni2006]

lost a judgement brought by Cabot financial, and they have obtained an interim charging order on my house, ( for no aparent reason other than bloody mindedness and increasing my debt)....

wrote to me after the hearing and gave me 14 days to respond with a proposal to pay off, but applied to the court for the order only 6 days after the date of writing of the proposal letter.

 

court has granted an interim order with a hearing in August.....

 

so where do I start?

[BeauBrummie]

Sorry to say Hunni, this would appear to be standard practice for Morgans - I am in exactly the same position.

 

You should have been notified about what they were doing - if not from Morgans, certainly from the Land Registry who would write as a matter of course to the Property owners.

 

What the threat monkey from Morgans has said is NOT true. What they have done in legal terms is applied to the court and been granted an INTERIM charging order which is very different to what you were told by the sound of it. The judge in your case must have given you time to pay and that time has expired. This leaves the door open for Morgans to apply for the CO to tie the debt to an asset. This is not nice for you but nor is it illegal.

 

What happens next is up to you - the hearing in August is to establish any good reason why the CO should not be made Final and Legally Binding. You can attend the hearing and put your valid arguments why it should not be granted. That does not mean that you can open up the arguments again regarding Cabot's right to collect the debt under the CCJ.

 

You need to be looking at the reasons why the final CCJ amount should not legally be tied to YOUR Interest in property. Any joint owner of the property cannot normally legally object to the CO being granted because it is only the person named in the CCJ that is also the beneficiarry of the property that can be charged.

 

Beau

Edited July 13, 2010 by BeauBrummie

[rebel11]

Hi hunni

 

Here's a link to a site, it explains a bit about Stoping Charging orders

Debt Factsheets - Charging orders in the county court

Others with a tad more knowledge will provide advise.

The link is for info only, not a recommendation.

[supasnooper]

You could apply to court on an N244 for a re-determination of the judgment dated XX/XX/XXX under CPR 14.13 and state this is box 3.

 

Do this within 14 days of receiving the judgment and it is free, otherwise you may have to pay at least £40.00

 

 

Have a look at the links below on Charging Orders and what grounds you may oppose them -

 

Insolvency Helpline

 

National Debtline

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/203298-guide-charging-orders-orders.html

[hunni2006]

Hi Beau,

 

there was a discussion at the hearing as to the wording of the judgement, and Morgans solicitor said that there was no need for a 14 day stipulation as they would be in touch to arrange suitable repayment, so the judge made an order WITHOUT any stipulation as to when it should be paid by.

 

Also, on leaving the hearing their solicitor said they would be in touch, so I waited to hear from them.

 

The 1st contact from them was this letter giving me 14 days, ( which they dated friday 18th but was not received until tues 22nd) they then didn't bother waiting for a response and made the application to the court on the 24th.

Edited July 13, 2010 by hunni2006
pointless anger venting!

[pt2537]

ive just obtained Crutchley v Go Debt finally, took a darn amount of digging but got it at last.

 

 

Cabots worst nightmare that case, especially the part where the judge agrees with Goode on assignees being the creditor

[angry cat]

by PT:

...part where the judge agrees with Goode on assignees being the creditor [End Quote]

 

There is also an OFT letter on CAG, which states the same.