Natwest/Shoosmiths Court Action

[stressed2009]

Hi

This is my first thread, but I have been browsing quite a few of the posts over recent weeks to try find out some information.

My partner and I split up about 8 months ago due to the stress of our money problems, he had a lot of trouble finding a job and we got taken to court because of our mortgage arrears. We are trying to sort out our problems now and would like to move in back together but first we really need to get our finances sorted as the stress will only cause us to argue and potentially split up again which is not good for our little girl.

We have approximately £45000 of unsecured debt, arrears on our mortgage and council tax and utilities arrears of 4000. We have a charging order over our house from August 2008 and I have been making the payments every month including the 100 extra we agreed.

I am going to contact the CCCS later to see if they can help us, maybe thinking about a DMP. I am hoping they will be able to help us get ourselves into a more manageable situation.

There is one of our credititors I am worried about, Natwest. Shoosmiths are now dealing with our account. They are claiming we owe £29500; this seems quite high considering it was originally a loan for 24000 which we paid for 30 months (300*30=9000). They also cancelled our overdraft and account so this added an extra £2500 to the loan amount. We have already moved our account to another bank. There must be quite a lot of unfair bank charges included in this amount. Is there any thing I can do about this with the test case action going through? I have not started a claim for this yet as was confused what I can do.

When I first spoke to them in March they advised me that they would only accept monthly payments of 492 any less and they would take me to court. I was so scared about this that I naively accepted that I would make these payments. I was hoping that the partners bosses talk of a pay rise and new role within his company would come off meaning we would be able to afford it. Sadly, this still hasn’t happened and he is now looking to move to another company in the hope he can get paid near the amount he used to get paid (current job is paying half of what he used to earn!) He called them this morning to ask if they would re-negotiate the amount and they have said they will not, he has explained our circumstances with our arrears and what we owe, compared to our incomes. They are saying they have now issued court proceedings.

I am so worried, what should I do? I’d rather get started now and not wait until we receive the summons. Any help would be so much appreciated!

Thanks

Jenny

[paulwlton]

You need to address your liabilites and place them into two categories. The first being secured debt and councill tax, these must be paid otherwise you'll lose your home or end up in court. Second is unsecured debt, an offer to each creditor can be worked out on a pro rato basis once priority debts have been paid....CAB will advise.

 

 

Could you post a breakdown of the amount and type of unsecured debt you have?

 

What date did you take the Natwest loan out?

 

Have you sent CCA requests to all your creditors?

 

It may be worthwile forwarding a SAR to find out what charges have been levied on your account.

 

Regards

[stressed2009]

Thanks for your response Paul.

 

I am trying to negotiate with Council Tax at the moment to clear the arrears on that, they are being pretty good about things. I just wish I had started dealing with things a bit sooner

 

We currently owe:

Natwest 29500

Barclaycard 7000

Capital One 3000

Provident 800

TMobile 600 - Partners has a CCJ and has to pay 50 per month.

Black Horse 2000

 

I did a budget calculator and we have about 450 per month spare once we have paid our priority debts and paid for essential living expenses. Going to sit down work things out properly tonight when I have all the paperwork infront of me.

 

We took out the loan with Natwest in June 2005, and kept up payments until December 2007, when my partner lost his job and we were reliant on my wages. I am pretty sure I made some payments after this as well, going to check statements tonight. Between September and December I tried to negotiate getting our account back up to date but hit constant hurdles. Including being told our account was in dispute when all that was said is that we had split up! They would not let me set up an arrangement until we had both been in to a branch (despite me being told on the phone it would be ok for just me to go in as he'd just started his new job and wouldnt have been easy for him to go in!). I have details of all the calls I made to them.

 

How do I go about sending a CCA requests to all of my creditors? And how do I do an SAR?

 

Barclaycard - I only ended up with one as when I was 18 wanted to get an overdraft and Barclays wouldnt let me so advised I get a Barclaycard, when I was only earning about 400 per month. And the more I spent on it the more they raised my credit limit I didnt even have to ask it just kept happening until it got to 6000!! I only used to pay the minimum as well

 

Thanks

 

Jenny

[paulwlton]

Send below recoreded delivery to all your creditors and make sure you alter your signature when signing anything.

 

Paul

 

 

Dated *******

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re:- Account/Reference Number **********

 

With reference to the above agreement, I require that you provide me a true copy of the credit agreement

 

I am aware that section 77/78(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 sets out clearly what is required to comply with my request and quote “shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it” For clarification I require a copy of the agreement, any terms and conditions from the time when the agreement was executed together with a copy of current terms and conditions and a copy of the cancellation notice if the agreement refers to “Your Right to Cancel” within it. I also require a statement of account as laid out also within Section 77/78(1).if there weren’t any terms and conditions then please confirm this in your response

 

I am entitled to receive the information on request. I enclose a payment of £1.00, which represents the fee payable under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

I note that section 172 outlines that statements by creditors are binding where made under inter alia section 77/78(1) and I take this to be that any reply made in response to this request is binding upon you. Therefore you should ensure that all documents request are supplied. Any missing documents will be considered not part of the agreement and could therefore affect the enforceability of anything you send.

 

I understand that Consumer Credit (Prescribed Periods for Giving Information) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1569) at regulation 2 sets out the required time frame for compliance with this request as being 12 working days from receipt

 

 

Should you fail to comply with my request as outlined above, I shall consider the account in dispute. I am aware that where a creditor fails to supply the requested information the creditors rights to enforcement are restricted until such time as they comply. I am also aware that there are certain terms that are required to be within the “Agreement” and should these terms be mis-stated or not present the agreement can be rendered unenforceable in law.

 

Notwithstanding the above, I note that the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1557) at Regulation 3 allows the Signature box and signature to be omitted in a copy document but the copy document must contain all the terms off the agreement contained within the signed executed original document

 

I respectfully request that you provide a copy of the original agreement signed by myself that you hold on file and while I accept that you can omit the signature box for the purposes of compliance with my request, you will be aware that any challenge to the agreement in court would require the signed copy of the original agreement. If you still reject this, please provide clarification on the status of the Original Credit Agreement and confirm either that you hold the original signed agreement on file or a copy of it on microfliche or that you no longer hold the file

 

Also please provide details of who I may address a subject access request to under the Data Protection Act 1998 section 7 so that I may obtain a copy of the original agreement should you fail to forward a copy in respect of this request

 

Therefore I look forward to receiving this information within the time frames as indicated above

 

 

Yours faithfully

[stressed2009]

Thanks Paul. I will be printing these out this evening and sending them to all our creditors.

 

I have spoken to CCCS who have been really helpful and I have an appointment booked for a call back. Hopefully they should be able to help me sort out this mess I have got myself into.

 

I guess I will just have to wait and see if Shoosmiths do send anything through. In the mean time I am going to get myself prepared incase.

 

Jenny

[stressed2009]

Hi

 

Sorry am new to this, and finally hoping to stand up to the people I owe money to.

 

I have been trying to negotiate with the Natwest and their solicitors Shoosmiths. They have said they will only accept a payment of £492, which is for our loan and our overdraft, they will not enter into any negotiation regarding this. Initially they did say that they would accept lower payments but that it would go to court if I wanted this so they could secure the agreement and that it would only be until my mortgage went down in November. Being scared of a court hearing I accepted their £492. My partners work has been unreliable since then and he is having trouble getting his wages out of them so we have been unable to make those payments. The amounts they are requesting would leave us with nothing after paying our essential bills and living expenses. They now say they are issuing court proceedings. Are they allowed to scare you into high payments and will the court enforce this? Our income and expenses form will clearly show we cannot afford it now.

 

Thanks

 

Jenny

[creditcardmug]

Hi and welcome, you need to give a few more details.

 

How old is the loan? how much was it for? have they consolidated the overdraft into the loan, or are they separate? have you sent a CCA request for the loan.

 

Any detail you can give will help others to help you, make sure you dont post anything which could identify you

[stressed2009]

Hi

 

The loan was taken out in 2005 and was for 24000. They have now consolidated our loan amount and overdraft together and are saying we owe them 29500, despite that we have made over 25 payments X £300 = 7500. Within this overdraft amount there must be 2000-3000 worth of charges. Our circumstances changed at the end of 2007 and my partner lost his job. As he left school with very few qualifications and has done his current profession since he left (over 10years) he found it very difficult to get another job. He finally got another full time permanent one in Nov 2008 on less than half he was on previously. Despite several attempts Natwest would not allow us to pay lower payments, only higher ones and only over 6 months which would have been ok as family were going to help us. Due to several internal reasons including them claiming that there was a dispute on our account they would not allow us to set up an arrangement. Family circumstances have now changed and they are not able to help now.

 

I am sending the CCA today, I am guessing I will need to send one for the loan and one for the account/overdraft?

 

Thanks

 

Jenny

[stressed2009]

Hi

 

I have received a claim form from the Northampton County Court with Issue Date 20 May 2009.

 

The claimant is National Westminster Bank PLC for a loan account and an account with overdraft. The address for sending documentation is Shoosmiths.

 

We have had problems with Natwest since September 2008 when I tried to set up a payment plan, they were pretty useless at helping us and at one stage even told me they wouldnt allow it as there was a dispute on the account?!

 

In March we received a letter from Shoosmiths inviting us to come to an arrangement for repayment of the debts. They were pretty set on that they would only accept a payment in the region of £492 per month or would take us to court. Being scared I accepted this with. We could not make the first payment as it is unaffordable. (our initial loan payment was for 300 per month). The person who I have the loan with is currently earning less than half of what he used to hence why we are struggling. And even getting his wages is a nightmare. We have spent this bank holiday weekend with no money as his boss didnt bother turning up to work on Saturday to pay him. We cant sort our tax credits claim either as his boss hasnt given him his P60 for last year and is using avoidance tactics not to give him their Employers Tax reference saying his accountants have it. Any ideas what we can do about this?

 

How should I proceed with these claims forms? Please help I am so worried!

 

Sorry if I should have provided more information, I am new to this.

 

Thanks

 

J

Edited April 2, 2010 by stressed2009

[BankFodder]

You are absolutely right to come here and to start talking about this problem. Many people just get themselves deeper into a hole because they don't deal with the matter and they don't respond to court papers.

 

You must deal with court action. If you don't then you will end up with a judgement against you in a way that you are unable to control.

 

You should immediately acknowledge the claim. By doing this, you buy yourself some extra time to deal with the matter. Once you have acknowledge the claim then you will have 28 days from the date of service of the claim on you to file a defence. To be on the safe side allow 26 days only.

 

You don't say how much the claim is for. It will be helpful to know that.

 

The loan account is probably subject to the consumer credit act 1974. Do you have the original agreement? If you do any will be worth having a look at it to see whether it complies with the consumer credit act requirements . If you do not have the original agreement then you can request a copy from the bank. They have 12 days to respond with a true copy of the original agreement. You will then be able to see if the agreement complies with the requirements of the 1974 consumer credit act. If the bank is unable to supply you with this agreement then the debt becomes unenforceable as the presumption will be that the requirements of the 1974 act were not met.

 

The overdraft portion of the claim is not subject to the consumer credit act 1974. Is any of this overdraft comprised of charges? These could be charges for late payment of loan payments or for bounced checks, failed direct debits or going over overdraft limit etc.

 

Any of these charges will be applied to your account unlawfully -- as will shortly be confirmed by the House of Lords in the OFT test case. You will be able to claim this money back or set it off against the money that they are trying to claim from you.

 

We need to have much more detail before we can advise you on a defence.

 

It is a shame that you agreed to the excessive repayment figure. However the behaviour you describe of the bank is typical. they try to get blood out of a stone and then they complain about it.

 

The bank are wrong not to accept your reasonable repayment and you should make a note of what you have offered them and what they have refused. The banks are obliged to reduce their losses as far as possible and so therefore even if it is not in full and final settlement, they should accept whatever is going. This is the normal pigheaded stupid attitude that we are finding from all of the banks and any other financial institutions.

 

As far as dealing with your boss is concerned, either is business is in trouble all year simply acting very unfairly with you.

 

I would suggest that you get onto the Department of work and pensions immediately and explain to them exactly what is going on and I'm sure that they will want to take some action anyway. However it sounds to me as if maybe you had better start looking for some alternatives.

 

When we get more information from you we can help you further. If you don't have full details of your account history and bank charges and so forth then send your bank an immediate SAR

[42man]

Can you tell us what the POC's are ? (Particulars Of The Claim) but no need to be specific with the numbers....

[stressed2009]

cHi

 

Sorry for the late reply I have had major problems with my internet the last 2 days.

 

The particulars of the claim are "The defendant (D) held the accounts as listed below with the claimant ©

D failed to pay the sums due to C when demanded and the sums listed below remain outstanding

XXXXXXXXXXx with debt balance XXXXX.XX

XXXXXXXXXXX with debt balance XXXX.XX

 

C has complied, as far as is necessary with the pre-action conduct practice direction.

 

The total claim if for nearly £30,000.

 

Unfortuantly, I dont have a copy of the original agreement. We took out the loan in June 2005 for £24,000 and paid every month until we ran into troubles in December 2007 (30 payments of £300 = £9,000). I am going to request this, along with copies of all my statements for the current account etc so I can work out how much of charges have been included. I also saw a letter someone had written that included which requested details of conversations, I think this will probably be a good letter to include as I have dates and times of all the calls I made to Natwest to try and get this resolved and on numerous times I have been told they have no record of the calls.

 

Is there anything else I need to be aware of?

 

Thanks

 

J

Edited June 16, 2009 by stressed2009

[42man]

The POC's are quite vague....you have got to acknowledge the claim within 14 days of the date on the claim form. If you wish to defend, then you need to state that. BUT it is too early to submit a defence. You then get a further 14+3 days in which to submit a defence, and you can bet that they will try hard to chase this amount.....the first thing to do is to send a CPR (Civil Procedure Rule) request for information....as they have not mentioned any defaults or agreements then the way to go might be CPR18 - (send this recorded to the solicitors ASAP)

 

In the XXXX County Court

Claimant -v- (YOUR NAME)

Claim Number: (CLAIM NUMBER)

 

 

Dear XXX

 

CPR18 - REQUEST FOR INFORMATION

 

I have received a recent court claim from your organisation. In order to file a defence and counter claim I require some information. Given that this matter is now the subject of legal proceedings, you are obliged to disclose under the Civil Procedure Rules, the information and documents detailed below.

 

The information must be furnished within fourteen days of the receipt of this letter. If you fail to comply, this will be reported to the Court, a copy of this letter will be provided as evidence to the same and an Order enforcing your compliance will be sought.

 

1. A true copy of the executed credit agreements and any terms and conditions that applied to the account at the time of default and at the time the account was opened. True copies of any default notices or enforcement notices that you sent me, with a copy of any proof of postage that you hold.

 

 

1.1 If copies of any of the above documents are to be relied on in court rather than originals, a copy of the Notice of proposal to adduce hearsay evidence required under s2(1) of the Civil Evidence Act 1995 together with proof of the authenticity of the document(s) as required under s8(1)(b) of the Act, including but not limited to:

 

(a) a copy of the procedure(s) used for copying, storing and retrieving documents

(b) a copy of the relevant log entry showing the time and date of the scan or copy, the name of the member of staff making the copy, the method used for copying, storage and retrieval and time and date of destruction of the original document(s)

© copies of internal and external audit reports covering the entire period from the date of the copy to the present to demonstrate that the procedures have been complied with

(d) copies of Quality Assurance accreditation certificates covering the entire period from the date of the copy to the present to demonstrate that the procedure(s) and audit process(es) comply with the appropriate quality standards

 

2. All records you hold on me relevant to this case, including but not limited to:

 

a. Transcriptions of all telephone conversations recorded and any notes made in relation to telephone conversations by your company, or by any previous creditor

b. Where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my account formerly held with *********.(AMEND TO THE COMPANY NAME)

c. .Documents relating to any insurance added to the account, including the insurance contract and terms and conditions, date it was added and deleted (if applicable).

d. Details of any collection charge added to the account; specifically, the date it was levied, the amount of the charge, a detailed financial breakdown of how the charge was calculated, and what the charge covers.

e. Specific details of the fees/charges levied by any other agency in respect of this account and a detailed breakdown of said fees/charges and what each charge relates to and on what date said fees/charges were levied.

f. A genuine copy of any notice of fair use of my data as required by the Data Protection Act 1998

g. A list of third party agencies to whom you have disclosed my personal data and a summary of the nature of the information you have disclosed.

h. Copies of statements for the entire duration of the credit agreement.

 

3. Any other documents you seek to rely on in court.

 

I will require this information within the next fourteen days. I must advise you that if the information is not forthcoming, it will be reported to the Court that you are trying to frustrate proceedings and denying me the opportunity to file a defence and counter claim.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

XXXX (type, don't sign).

[42man]

Have a look at this thread too - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/156156-help-mum-being-taken.html#post1665130

[stressed2009]

Hi

 

Right I have sent off my CPR18 Request special delivery. I am going to complete the acknowledgement of service online tonight, I take it I have to do this for myself and the other half?

 

I am pretty sure we have most of the statements but am going to check and send off a request tomorrow if we dont have them all.

 

What should I be doing in the mean time as I feel as though there must be more to do?

 

Thanks

 

J

Edited June 16, 2009 by stressed2009

[42man]

Spend some time reading around these forums looking at possible defences....but watch the timelines very carefully....

[stressed2009]

Hi

 

I really need to file my acknowledgement tonight left it quite late but a getting myself confused on whether I should defend all of the claim or defend part of this claim.

 

I just assumed that I would just need to log on and click the acknowledgement of service, fill in a few details and that would be it?!

 

Any advice appreciated.

 

Thanks

 

J

[stressed2009]

Hi

 

I hope you dont mind me asking, but I need a bit of help filling in the acknowledgement of service on the court website. I am getting myself confused.

 

Short summary is we have been sent a county claim form from Northampton CC for Shoosmiths who are acting on behalf of Natwest. This is for outstanding amount of XXXXX for a loan account and outstanding amount of XXXXX for our current account with overdraft. On the current account there were over £1000 in charges.

 

Should I defend all of the claim or part of the claim?

 

Thanks

 

Jenny

[supasnooper]

Hi there,

 

Defend all of the claim or you will end up with a CCJ by default.

 

Please can you post up your Particulars of Claim.

[stressed2009]

Hi

 

I have all the details on another thread I have:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/201319-court-claim-received-help.html

 

I hope you dont mind but I had to put up another post as I really needed a quick answer. I have now submitted it as defend all the claim.

 

I am slightly worried though as tomorrow is 14 days from the date of service and after I submitted the form it says it wont be processed until next working day. I think I have been really stupid and left it too late. Until this afternoon I was still contemplating agreeing with the claim and asking for time to pay. But after spending the whole weekend reading the forums I decided to defend. Have I ruined things?

 

Thanks

 

J

[supasnooper]

Have you done the Acknowledgment of Service as advised by 42man yet.

 

This can be completed online.

 

You will need to defnd all and do not contest jurisdiction.

 

You do not need to submit a defence yet.

[supasnooper]

I've posted some advice on your other thread.

 

If need advice then just add a post on the other thread which will bring your thread to the top of the forum for people to see.

 

It will also keep alll the info together in one place instead of being dotted around the site.

 

Hope this helps.

Edited June 8, 2009 by supasnooper
typo

[stressed2009]

Hi

 

I filed the acknowledgement of the claim last night, but am worried I have left it too late as today would have been 14 days from the date of service. It said that it would be dealt with today as it was on a weekend I didnt realise this would be the case I assumed it would be ok as it was within the time you are allocated even if a little late.

 

What should I do now?!

 

Thanks

 

J

Edited June 16, 2009 by stressed2009

[stressed2009]

Hi

 

I sent off the letter to Shoosmiths as suggested giving them 10 days. This was delivered on the 3rd June 2009 by special delivery. I have had no response from them and need to submit my defence by next Monday.

 

What do I do now!?

 

Thanks

 

J

Edited June 16, 2009 by stressed2009

[stressed2009]

Please can anyone help me with this?

 

Thanks

J