Jump to content


  • Tweets

  • Posts

    • He was one of four former top executives from Sam Bankman-Fried's firms to plead guilty to charges.View the full article
    • The private submersible industry was shaken after the implosion of the OceanGate Titan sub last year.View the full article
    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
  • Recommended Topics

  • Our picks

    • If you are buying a used car – you need to read this survival guide.
      • 1 reply
    • Hello,

      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

      Car was dirty and test drive was two circuits of roundabout on entry to the showroom.  Was p/x my car and rushed by sales exec and a manager into buying the mini and a 3yr warranty that night, sale all wrapped up by 10pm.  They strongly advised me taking warranty out on car that age (2017) and confirmed it was honoured at over 500 UK registered garages.

      The next day, 18/1/24 noticed amber engine warning light on dashboard , immediately phoned BMW aftercare team to ask for it to be investigated asap at nearest garage to me. After 15 mins on hold was told only their 5 service centres across the UK can deal with car issues with earliest date for inspection in March ! Said I’m not happy with that given what sales team advised or driving car. Told an amber warning light only advisory so to drive with caution and call back when light goes red.

      I’m not happy to do this, drive the car or with the after care experience (a sign of further stresses to come) so want a refund and to return the car asap.

      Please can you advise what I need to do today to get this done. 
       

      Many thanks 
      • 81 replies
    • Housing Association property flooding. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/438641-housing-association-property-flooding/&do=findComment&comment=5124299
      • 161 replies
    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
        • Like
  • Recommended Topics

Invalid Default Notices


style="text-align: center;">  

Thread Locked

because no one has posted on it for the last 4962 days.

If you need to add something to this thread then

 

Please click the "Report " link

 

at the bottom of one of the posts.

 

If you want to post a new story then

Please

Start your own new thread

That way you will attract more attention to your story and get more visitors and more help 

 

Thanks

Recommended Posts

I wish these "legalese" arguments - which are probably all perfectly valid - could also be translated into terms the lay person can understand.

 

I am now totally lost - and a few weeks ago I thought I had a good handle on this topic with what I thought had been distilled from the many excellent posts on this most valuable thread - namely:

 

Dodgy DN + followed by TN + followed by debtor's acceptance

= debtor only needs to pay lawful arrears to date

- but debtor can offset "damages" against such arrears

= arguably nothing is now "owed" (or at least enforceable)

- creditor unlikely to take debtor to court on this

= debtor of the hook - but debt stays on file for 6 years.

 

I understand most older case law (and many instances of creditors throwing in the towel before court) backs up this scenario but a recent case (being appealed?) went the other way. Have I got this bit right?

 

I think I can see a bit of "logic" in arguing that if terminating the agreement wasn't "allowed" or would be illegal/unlawful/not lawful/incompetent/invalid etc. (due to being done after issuing a dodgy DN) then the termination "didn't happen" - so the agreement "endures" - even if the debtor was willing to accept the termination (i.e. BOTH parties seem to have said they want to terminate - but they are not allowed to do so?).

 

On the other hand the law is realistic enough in other circumstances to realise it can be broken - theft, murder, fraud, drunken driving etc. are "not allowed" - but they still happen - and the wrongdoer gets punished (if caught) according to sanctions already determined (on assumption/recognoition that what is "not allowed" or "illegal" will still happen).

 

Equally if a contract of employment is wrongly broken by the employer not jumping through all the "right hoops" then the employee can claim compensation. The employer is not allowed to just keep "firing" the employee until he gets it right.

 

So why give the creditor umpteen chances? Why not also punish the creditor who either breaks or attempts to break an agreement on the back of a dodgy DN - instead of allowing him to issue DN after DN until he gets it right?

 

Surely that was not what the CCA 1974 set out to acheive? How does that "protect" the debtor - which we are told was the overriding aim of it?

 

Have I still got a grasp of the basics? Or has the recent (perverse?) judgement made this distillation too simplistic?

 

I studied nuclear physics for a while at University - it seemed simpler and made a lot more sense than this! :???:

 

Can someone please let us have a simpler (but still valid) view of this issue - so we can either retain hope or give it up right now?

 

BD

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Replies 5.4k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Posted Images

OK so failure to issue a valid DN denies the lender his entitlement to terminate or demand earlier payment of sums.

 

But how then do we describe the lenders obvious failure to perform the contract (i.e. provide credit)? Is that not a repudiation in common law (Having now departed from under the umbrella of the regulatory legislation)?

 

I think the answer to that lurks inside s140

 

140A Unfair relationships between creditors and debtors

(1) The court may make an order under section 140B in connection with a credit agreement if it determines that the relationship between the creditor and the debtor arising out of the agreement (or the agreement taken with any related agreement) is unfair to the debtor because of one or more of the following—

(a) any of the terms of the agreement or of any related agreement;

(b) the way in which the creditor has exercised or enforced any of his rights under the agreement or any related agreement;

© any other thing done (or not done) by, or on behalf of, the creditor (either before or after the making of the agreement or any related agreement)

 

140B Powers of court in relation to unfair relationships (1) An order under this section in connection with a credit agreement may do one or more of the following—

(a) require the creditor, or any associate or former associate of his, to repay (in whole or in part) any sum paid by the debtor or by a surety by virtue of the agreement or any related agreement (whether paid to the creditor, the associate or the former associate or to any other person);

(b) require the creditor, or any associate or former associate of his, to do or not to do (or to cease doing) anything specified in the order in connection with the agreement or any related agreement;

© reduce or discharge any sum payable by the debtor or by a surety by virtue of the agreement or any related agreement;

(d) direct the return to a surety of any property provided by him for the purposes of a security;

(e) otherwise set aside (in whole or in part) any duty imposed on the debtor or on a surety by virtue of the agreement or any related agreement;

(f) alter the terms of the agreement or of any related agreement;

(g) direct accounts to be taken, or (in Scotland) an accounting to be made, between any persons.

 

So the CCA 1974 does have teeth. Again it would seem to depend on a Creditors actions after issuing of a dodgy DN. The question again is do you point this out to them prior to court proceedings? They could argue we are really sorry we didn't know that DN was utter cr@p and we didn't give the credit 14 days. However if you pointed it out to them?? Then that's their problem my favorite bit by the way.

 

(9) If, in any such proceedings, the debtor or a surety alleges that the relationship between the creditor and the debtor is unfair to the debtor, it is for the creditor to prove to the contrary.]

 

I would have thought a Creditor proceeding to court in full knowledge of not having issued a DN or a Valid one is very clearly unfair. Even more so if a debtor unfamiliar with the court process informs the creditor of their failings.

 

Do I expect a judge to write off £10k for not underling a passage, not really.

 

Do I expect a judge to write off £?k for not issuing a DN, demanding the full amount, harassing me, threatening debt collector visits, issuing proceedings in full knowledge that they have no legal right but wish to try it anyway, frustrating proceedings in court etc. Who knows. It would certainly make any counter claim easier I would hope.

 

Again it seems to come down to the Judge lottery, I believe (and hope) that if a debtor has behaved in a manner with good intentions and are the victim of a OC/DCA's greed then that must count for something.

 

Did I send UR letters when my Creditors sent dodgy DN and confirmed termination yes I did. Did I consider it to be a repudiatory breach of contract yes. If they now trot of to Northampton will I use this in my favour most certainly, do I think it will write debts off not really but I consider the Creditors actions to be unfair.

 

If no valid DN is issued they have no right under an act of parliament to terminate or demand sums not yet due.

 

Pumpytums

Link to post
Share on other sites

Pumpytums

 

Thanks for that - excellent stuff and totally comprehensible too. :-)

 

I think we all agree on your final sentence - but the big prize would be knowing that only arrears (less damages) would be recoverable if a dodgy DN were issed and the creditor went to court demanding the rest.

 

From what you say he would be unlikely to be told by court he could claim the total balance still outstanding right away - the court could "write off" the balance - but onth eother hand he could possibly claim it be repaid in the same instalments as set out in the agreement - if the agreement is deemed to endure. He could then issue a complaint DN and start all over again if the debtor can't keep up such payments - back to square 1, but this time with a fully compliant DN etc.

 

It's these last two bits I don't like at all - and that is at variance with what I thought until recently.

 

So still pretty confused on huge bits of this topic! :???:

 

Surely the CCA didn't intend to allow such a cat and mouse game to endure?

 

BD

Link to post
Share on other sites

It's pretty confusing,

the one point I would like to be confirmed by any legal bods is the following :-

 

Discontinuance and subsequent proceedings

 

38.7

 

A claimant who discontinues a claim needs the permission of the court to make another claim against the same defendant if –

(a) he discontinued the claim after the defendant filed a defence; and

 

(b) the other claim arises out of facts which are the same or substantially the same as those relating to the discontinued claim.

 

A creditor in proceedings discontinues namely his/her DN is a load of old bobbins. They then issue fresh proceedings with exactly the same POC the court allows this, their new shiny DN is again a load of old bobbins. How many times would a court allow such conduct?

 

On the third attempt if it was allowed could the debtor claim that the creditor was issuing vexatious litigation's I think it's 2 attempts.

 

Pumpytums

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi,

 

A claimant who discontinues a claim needs the permission of the court to make another claim

 

Trouble is a claimant doesn't have to discontinue. They can cease complying (with court orders/etc) to ensure the existing case is struck out. Then re-issue, as the new claim is not restricted by res judicata (because the old case did not proceed to a full trial).

 

I had this scenario during a claim. As the first case was struck out and I had received my costs, the court allowed the claimant to proceed with the new case. The court decided that I had been sufficiently compensated by getting my costs.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi,

 

 

 

Trouble is a claimant doesn't have to discontinue. They can cease complying (with court orders/etc) to ensure the existing case is struck out. Then re-issue, as the new claim is not restricted by res judicata (because the old case did not proceed to a full trial).

 

I had this scenario during a claim. As the first case was struck out and I had received my costs, the court allowed the claimant to proceed with the new case. The court decided that I had been sufficiently compensated by getting my costs.

 

Out of interest Bill, had you filed a defence? I thought that was the 'point of no return'.

 

M

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Most of the above comments refer to the OC issuing an invalid default notice followed by a termination notice - but retaining the account. It would appear that in the vast majority of cases, the OC then goes onto sell the account to a DCA. The DCA then issues a claim. My question is, what is the state of the account at that time? Is it still owned by the original OC because he issued an invalid DN or has it been terminated because he sold it to a DCA? What is the legal status of the account?

 

Alan

Edited by alangee
spelling
Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi looking for a bit of help with what I think is a Natwest default notice.

 

I say I think as it doesnt actually say "default notice" on it as such.

 

Accompanying letter states FORMAL NOTICE OF INTENTION TO FILE A DEFAULT AND TO TAKE ACTION TO RECEOVER DEBT. This letter states that bank card etc has to be returned and gives 28 days to remedy situation or make payment arrangement and says we must contact them in response to the attached default notice.

 

The attached letter states Notice served under sections 76(1) and 98(1) of the consumer credit act 1974. It doesn't actually state Default Notice. It is referring to termination of an overdraft - however there has never been an overdraft on this account, the account in question is a step account and the current overdrawn amount of £1300+ is 100% charges. The notice is dated 16/11/09 and gives untill 3/12/09 to remedy.

 

The next letter we recevied is dated 15/12 and states that OH has failed to comply with the requirements set out in recent default notice. Would have had a hard job complying with it as in all honesty I didn't realise it was a default notice because it doesnt actually say that it is a default notice.

 

We are now being chased by Bryan Carter amongst others for repayment of this debt and a default was lodged against my OH earlier on this year.

 

I have asked advice on the bank forum in respect of Natwest applying £1300 charges to a step account but unfortunatley havent got anywhere.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi MandM,

 

Bill, had you filed a defence?

 

Yes, the claim had gone through allocation (to the fast track) and the judge had ordered the claimant to file and serve his "relied upon" default notice. The DN the claimant had previously filed had a different date to the one the claimant had stated on the POC.

 

I thought that was the 'point of no return'

 

I understand why you think that. My presumption (at the time) was that if the claimant discontinued or the claim was struck out, he would need permission to re-issue.

I made an application to "strike out" the new claim, but the judge said that the original claim did not proceed to trial (no res judicata) and that the original claim was not discontinued. The claimant stated that "as they were unable to comply with the request to f+s the correct DN in the time specified, they "allowed" the claim to be struck out!".

 

As we know the CPR states -

 

A claimant who discontinues a claim needs the permission of the court to make another claim against the same defendant if –

(a) he discontinued the claim after the defendant filed a defence

and

(b) the other claim arises out of facts which are the same or substantially the same as those relating to the discontinued claim.

 

That is no comfort when the claimant allows the claim to be struck out. At least not in my case.

It was strange that the original claim was fast track, but the second claim was sct, at the request of the claimant!

Still, we live and learn.

Discontinuance is infinitely better than a strike out.

Bill.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Bear with me on this one :-)

 

I always believed the concept that if a creditor issues a dodgy DN and then terminates it amounts to unlawful repudiation too. However, recent discussions have suggested that the law would not hold that the termination was valid as the DN wasn't valid.

 

I fail to see how the act of termination has anything to do with the issue or not of a DN. They are seperate acts, each with their own format and prescribed requirement. Seems a bit like categorically stating you cannot have a dessert unless you've first had the main meal. Of course you should start with the main meal but a failure to have done so does not prevent you in any way from having the dessert. Doing it this way round does not make the act of eating the dessert any less true.

 

So, it seems that a creditor cannot actually terminate unless the DN is valid, even though they have clearly displayed their intention to end the agreement and recoup all sums? Even though they've passed details to third parties who are now sending threat letters?

 

If the termination is therefore invalid the following must apply?

 

If the termination is not in effect then the decision by the creditor to have passed your details to a third party are surely a breach of Data Protection laws as they are subsequently using that data for wrongful purposes.

 

If the creditor demands full payment from you technically that is evidence of an unfair relationship as the creditor actually can only demand the true arrears amount.

 

Technically if the creditor is demanding full sums it would amount to an unfair business practice as you were expecting to pay on a monthly basis and now they want it all at once.

 

Technically if they are demanding full sums and commence litigation that action is vexatious and an abuse of the court system.

 

All of it would amount to harrassment.

 

On another note if the bank sends out an invalid DN (bearing in mind that these regulations have been around for many years, they are hardly new) and then terminates that contract I would look to the statement of Lord Wilberforce in the case of Saunders v Anglia Building Soc (sub nom Gallie v Lee) [1970] UKHL 5 (09 November 1970)

"... a person who signs a document, and parts with it so that it may come into other hands, has a responsibility, that of the normal man of prudence, to take care what he signs, which if neglected, prevents him from denying his liability under the document according to its tenor"

I believe the notion that a bank, a supposedly professional organisation, has a basic duty to get things right and not mess a consumer around. If they issue a DN and then Terminate and its all been done with little care and respect for the provisions of the CCA then why shouldn't they be held accountable?

How about this?

Even if the actual DN and Termination is then considered void I consider the 'accidental' act of the bank to then demand the full sum of X, typically delivered under threat of future action, is paramount to a breach of contract in itself.

If the agreement following a supposedly ineffective DN and Termination states you will discharge your obligations on a weekly or monthly basis and the bank then issues what amounts to an unlawful demand for the full sum (as of course the actual agreement is still supposedly live as the termination is invalid) this would amount to an unfair business practice at best.

If the agreement is still live you only have a contractual obligation to pay as arranged, so the demand for the full sum should surely represent a further perceived act of repudiation as the bank are only allowed to demand the full sum after a valid DN and Termination. They admit their original DN and Termination was void and as a consequence the contract must therefore still be live. Why therefore do you now have a seperate letter demanding the full balance? It is in effect a double whammy!

If the DN is invalid and they terminate you accept their repudiation, however if they state you can't as they messed up and the agreement is still live you are then clearly still bound by the contractual terms between the two parties.

If you are therefore within the confines of that agreement the letter you have in your hands demanding the full payment is surely seperate ground to then 're-accept' as if you were within the confines of the agreement at all times and your original acceptance was therefore worthless the demand for the full balance (which would have come after the pointless DN and Termination) would surely constitute an act falling outside of the agreement for which you could then 're-accept'.

It is evidence of a very clear breach of contract as the contract you have (which remember is now not actually terminated - therefore live) clearly states that the debtor will discharge their obligations on a monthly/weekly basis and not as the creditor now demands all in one go.

 

They can't have it both ways after all - either it's terminated correctly or it isn't and if it isn't all of the above applies doesn't it?

 

A creditor cannot demand the full sums unless a valid DN and Termination has been effected. Irrespective of valid terminations if you have a demand in your hand for the full sum that is seperate to the DN and Termination letters surely that very letter (as the agreement is still supposedly live to allow the bank to escape its earlier cock up) is evidence alone of a second intention by the bank to end the agreement? You can then accept as the agreement is still live and your contractual obligation is very different to the full sum demanded.

 

What do we think? They can't have it both ways and as Lord Wilberforce commented there is an obligation to ensure that what is sent out is correct, clearly hinting at the peril the sender can expect if they fail to act in a responsible manner.

Link to post
Share on other sites

An OC can legally sell an account without issuing a DN, legally the DCA can ask you to make payments however they cannot demand monies not yet due without a valid DN. If they issue a claim and the DN is fatally flawed or doesn't exist then they cannot gain judgement. What happens as a result after they discontinue is anyone's guess however.

 

A DCA can only take you to court if is an absolute assignment unless the OC joins them in the action.

 

Pumpytums

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Bill,

 

So in your case are you saying that the court struck the claim out purely because of their failure to adhere to time limits?

 

Was this done at a hearing or did you go on to apply for SO?

 

On the new claim did they submit a new DN or stay with the original one?

 

Sorry for all the questions Bill :-)

 

M

Edited by MandM
Typo. Got 10 thumbs

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Crockie,

firstly as you have said a step account doesn't have a OD.

 

Have Nasty ever sent you a facility letter? Basically this gives you a OD up to a set amount.

 

They tend to get a bit sheepish when you mention this, as they HAVE to send one.

 

Pumpytums

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi MandM,

 

So in your case are you saying that the court stuck the claim out purely because of their failure to adhere to time limits?

 

Yes.

 

Was this done at a hearing or did you go on to apply for SO?

 

The original order stated "if the claimant fails to comply with this order, the claim be struck out without further order" this was included at my request, at the preliminary hearing.

 

There was a future hearing already listed, and that hearing dealt with my costs instead of the original purpose. I asked for SJ, but the judge wouldn't have it.

 

On the new claim did they submit a new DN or stay with the original one?

 

They relied upon the DN that they were ordered to produce in the first claim. I eventually convinced the judge (by cross-examining the C's witness) that it was reconstructed to enhance the claimants claim, and that it was never actually sent/posted at all.

 

Bill.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I eventually convinced the judge (by cross-examining the C's witness) that it was reconstructed to enhance the claimants claim, and that it was never actually sent/posted at all.

 

Bill.

 

:-) Nice. :-):-):-) Thanks for that Bill.

 

I suppose that what i'm trying to get at is maybe there's a marked difference if a hearing has gone ahead AND THEN their DN gets shot down and the case gets struck out because of it.

 

Although the OCs only option then would be to issue a new DN before starting again as the original was proven as flawed.

 

In that case - new DN, new arrears amount etc - could the OC start again and pretend that the first round never happened or would the courts permission be needed?

 

M

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Pumpytums

 

That is my point. If an account has been sold on after the OC has issued an invalid DN and susequently terminated, who actually owns the account? What is the state of the assignment? Is the assignment invalid as well?

 

It has to be an absolute assignment for the DCA to make a claim against you in their sole name, but if the account has not been "terminated" by virtue of the fact that an invalid DN had been issued by the OC, does the DCA have the right to make a claim in their sole name?

 

Alan

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi MandM,

 

maybe there's a marked difference if a hearing has gone ahead AND THEN their DN gets shot down and the case gets struck out because of it.

 

I agree, maybe there is. My experience is where a claim is struck out because of non-compliance with an order.

 

Although I would assume that if the DN has been shot down at a hearing, then could it be argued that the hearing was a trial? And then a judgement would be given instead of a strike out?. Then res judicata steps in.

 

Although the OCs only option then would be to issue a new DN before starting again as the original was proven as flawed.

 

I expect the claimant would have trouble denying the original TN though! Or another notice demanding the full balance that pre-dates the new DN.

 

could the OC start again and pretend that the first round never happened or would the courts permission be needed?

 

IMHO,

If the first claim was discontinued after a defence is filed, and the new claim is substantially the same, then he would need permission.

 

If the first claim was struck out, then he doesn't need permission.

I made an application to strike out the second claim, and it failed for the reasons I have given.

 

I can only write from my experience, so don't take anything here as gospel:-).

HMCS (corp.) work in mysterious ways. Usually in favour of the banks.

 

Bill.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Pumpytums

 

That is my point. If an account has been sold on after the OC has issued an invalid DN and susequently terminated, who actually owns the account? What is the state of the assignment? Is the assignment invalid as well?

 

It has to be an absolute assignment for the DCA to make a claim against you in their sole name, but if the account has not been "terminated" by virtue of the fact that an invalid DN had been issued by the OC, does the DCA have the right to make a claim in their sole name?

 

Alan

 

This is very similar to my case,

the OC sold it to a DCA, the DCA demanded the full amount confirmed the account was terminated. I had my suspicions no DN was issued which I managed to confirm myself at a latter date from the OC. I contacted the DCA and informed them of my concerns that no DN was issued. They "noted" my letter and sent a MCOL claim form. At my allocation hearing the Judge asked for all document relied upon including the DN. Shortly after the DCA discontinued. May I add they didn't discontinue due to the lack of a Dnanother reason was given.

 

There are two possibilities regarding the DCA and the missing DN :

 

1. The DCA was told by the OC that a DN existed and ignored my letter.

2. The DCA was fully aware that no DN existed and continued anyway.

 

I'm leaning towards the latter as the DCA's tact was to avoid the DN issue altogether. I asked for it under the CPR rules and got nothing.

 

The OC has now repurchased the account issued a DN and is carrying on as if nothing happened. They have actually stated in a letter the account should not have been sold without a DN but this is not strictly true.

 

The account does not have to be terminated for an absolute assignment eg Santander buys Abbey but I don't see many DCA's offering credit cards. So I think yes the assignment is invalid. The DCA bought the account under the impression it was lawfully terminated. I don't actually think their is an unlawful termination as it appears that such an act is impossible under CCA 1974 so I'm told.

 

Pumpytums

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Pumpytums,

 

I don't actually think their is an unlawful termination as it appears that such an act is impossible under CCA 1974 so I'm told.

 

Thats correct.

 

There is no sanction whatsover (in cca74) when a creditor fails to issue a compliant DN and then terminates/demands sums not yet due.

 

The termination is ineffective.

 

Subsequently, the claimant is not entitled to claim for sums not yet due.

 

Just imagine all the claims (for sums not yet due) the creditor has *won* on the presumption of a compliant DN, that was not actually compliant.

 

How many people with CCJs will be hooking out their DN to check it was compliant?

 

How many people have been duped into repaying sums (not yet due) by the creditors and courts?.

 

How many appeals/set asides' will be in the pipeline now?

 

If the agreements were in fact "alive" the debtor could've applied for a time order, or the creditor would have to re-issue the claim with a compliant DN. More revenue for the courts, less profit for the banks, less tax for HMRC.

 

Wishful thinking!

 

Fortunately, an acceptance (word or deed) falls under contract law, and is well established.

AFAIK, there is no precedent (yet) that disqualifies an acceptance of U/T from the cca74.

 

My judge (and counsel for the claimant) were well versed in U/T or U/R, and the accepting of same.

But again, thats my experience, it may not be the same for anybody else.

Edited by Bill Shidding
Link to post
Share on other sites

i would caggers of the following observations by SurfaceagentX20- upon whom i would suggest more reliabilty should be placed in this matter

 

 

The contention I advance is that an ineffective DN does not prohibit the creditor from terminating the agreement. Termination after service of an effective default notice is lawful termination, but as we have seen, a party may still terminate an agreement and be in the wrong for doing so. The law operates on a wrongful termination to offer to the injured party the choice of accepting the termination or to hold the contract breaker to his promise.

 

In the world of consumer credit, I contend a termination of the agreement by a creditor in terms whereby he announced he would no longer permit the debtor time to repay the credit, was a creditor in repudiatory breach of the agreement, unless in leading up to termination, the creditor complied with the requirements of the Act in circumstances where the debtor was in first breach of the agreement.

 

Further, and it is worth remembering, the Act is an Act for the purpose of consumer protection. The purpose of the Act is not to preserve the rights of creditors in contracts and to protect them from misadventure where for example, they terminated an agreement where it subsequently transpired the termination had not been in their interests. If that were so, the Act would have been an Act for the better protection of financiers.

 

In a proper case, the law will come to the aid of the vulnerable to protect them from the consequences of their contracts (for example the unsound in mind, children, those under duress or undue influence). To suggest financiers fell into that bracket and the Consumer Credit Act

operated to protect them and not the consumer, was absurd. The civil law does not come to rescue the misadentures of the sain and the savvy.

 

The clue to the position of the creditor on termination is in the use of the word 'entitled' in section 87(1). 'Entitled' connotes a right or a benefit. The Act therefore confers rights, conditional upon the provisions of section 87(1) being fuilfilled. Fail to fulfill the condition and the entitlements do not become available.

 

In the case of a contract entered into by a person under duress and who then breaks the contract the law will come to that person's aid by recognising that person's plea that the contract was made under duress. If that person seeks a declaration of the court that the contract was made under duress the court wil readily declare the contract void.

 

If the Act had intended that a creditor's termination in circumstances where section 87(1) had not been fulfilled by the creditor and was to be of no effect, the Act would have declared that termination void. It doesn't. The termination is voidable at the option of the debtor.

 

[3] The Debtor's Point of View

Third, let us look at the position from the ordinary man as debtor's point of view in a consumer credit situation.

 

The DN is defective for failing to conform to the prescribed terms, or gives misleading information or at worse is plain nonsense so that the debtor does not know precisely what he has to do in order to comply with it and is consequently disadvantaged. Should the law disregard the fact that the creditor put the debtor at a disadvantage and thereby at risk the creditor might lawfully terminate the agreement?

 

'This statute was plainly enacted to protect consumers, most of whom are likely to be individuals. When contracting with a large financial organisation they are at a disadvantage. The contract is likely to be in standard form and relatively complex with a number of detailed provisions. If the hirer is said to have broken its terms, the hirer needs to know precisely what he or she is said to have done wrong and what he or she needs to do to put matters right. The lender has the ability and the resources to give that information with precision. If he does not do so accurately then he cannot take what Mr Gruffyd conveniently referred to as "the next step". [per Kennedy LJ in Woodchester v Swayne [1998]]

 

Moving on, if the debtor receives a notice from the creditor in which the creditor expressly states the contract is terminated, what is the debtor supposed to think? Would the law regard him as likely to think the creditor had terminated the contract or would the law regard him as thinking it had not terminated because strictly speaking, the creditor had served a default notice which was not in accordance with prescribed terms?

 

Or where perhaps the creditor did not expresly terminate but sent the bully boys over to demand the keys to the car. What was the debtor to think then? Would the debtor think the creditor had terminated?

 

It seems to me on the basis of the passages below, the courts will be ready to hold a creditor to his words and actions.

 

"... a person who signs a document, and parts with it so that it may come into other hands, has a responsibility, that of the normal man of prudence, to take care what he signs, which if neglected, prevents him from denying his liability under the document according to its tenor".

[per Lord Wilberforce in Gallie v Lee (1971)]

 

'.. a man cannot escape from the consequences, as regards innocent third parties, of signing a document if, being a man of ordinary education and competence, he chooses to sign it without informing himself of its purport and effect..'

[per Scott LJ in Norwich & Peterborough Building Society v Steed (1992)]

 

In short, the creditor is bound by his deed. All that is required is for the debtor to accept the creditor's termination. He can write saying 'thank you I accept you termination' or he can conduct himself in a way in keeping with that termination. Not paying the instalments would be in keeping with an acceptance of the termination.

 

[4] The fiction of the Second DN and the Enduring Obligation

The service of any second default notice, at a time when the contract is terminated, owing to the wording of the DN in its prescribed form, would perpetuate the fiction that the contract endured. The same can be said owing to the provisions of section 89 of the Act.

 

The form of words in the DN incorporate text in order to meet the intention of section 89 of the Act which provides:

 

'If before the date specified for that purpose in the default notice the debtor or hirer takes the action specified under section 88(1)(b) or © the breach shall be treated as not having occurred.'

 

In other words, in serving the second DN, the creditor would be suggesting:

 

[a] an obligation had persisted post termination by which the debtor was bound to make instalment payments (ie post-termination 'arrears'), and

that if payment of those 'arrears' was made, an obligation to make future instalment payments would endure.

 

The obligations at [a] and are obligations enduring during the currency of the agreement. Besides maintaining the fiction of the enduring agremeent as I say, it seems to me any second DN would be bound to be defective for over-stating the sums due. The creditor can not state as an amount due for 'arrears' of instalments that which he said in consequence of his termination was no longer due and payable by instalments. If the creditor sought to use a form of DN which made sense by getting round the fact the agreement had been terminated, the DN would not be in prescribed form.

 

The only way in which a second DN would be of value to the creditor would be where the contract had been re-instated. If the debtor has accepted the termination, re-instatement requires the consent of the debtor.

 

The net result of [1] to [4] is the agreement is terminated for all time. The creditor's remedy is now limited by section 87(1). All that is left for the creditor to recover is the sum truly in arrear at the date of the default notice.

 

 

 

 

Yes read this very well reasoned, I notice however that in his case the creditors did issue a second default notice, the issue was that the sums owed would be difficult to calculate and so the default sum would be nigh impossible to correctly calculate so the process would have go on forever.

This I think was the deciding factor if I am wrong I am sure I will be corrected by a reliable source.

I do not agree about the debtor being able to chose to accept the termination the creditor is not after all in a position to issue it so how can it be accepted. In any case in a repudiatory breach involving a deficient DN it would be the DN itself that would be the cause of the breach and therefore up to the debtor to accept this and then terminate himself hardly helpful

I am sure that not many of you are still under the impression that there is any such thing as a rescission of agreement on a credit agreement, if you are I suggest you look up the term for yourself , rescission requires the agreement is taken back to before it was executed, hardly possible when there is n active contract which there will always be as long as a sum remains unpaid.

No I think you mean unlawful termination also impossible on a credit card or fixed sum come to that

Peter

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

Link to post
Share on other sites

Guest HeftyHippo

I am sure that not many of you are still under the impression that there is any such thing as a rescission of agreement on a credit agreement, if you are I suggest you look up the term for yourself , rescission requires the agreement is taken back to before it was executed, hardly possible when there is n active contract which there will always be as long as a sum remains unpaid.

No I think you mean unlawful termination also impossible on a credit card or fixed sum come to that

Peter

for once, you are slightly correct, but as usual, you shroud the smallest element of correctness with a large cloak of wrongness.

"Rescission" is literally, the unmaking of a contract, and turns the clock, and the position of each party back (as far as possible), to the point before the contract existed. it is not moving the contract back before it was executed.

 

It is therefore perfectly possible with a credit agreement because the agreement is treated as never having existed, in contrast to your incorrect statement that the agreement is live and always will be as long as there is an outstanding sum, and therefore cannot be rescinded.

 

Rescinding a contract is not based on rules, but the opinion of a judge on how much the previous status quo ie, immediately before the contract existed, can be achieved. The exact previous status quo may therefore not be completely achieved - eg, when different materials have been incorporated or materials have been disposed of

 

The term is often incorrectly used in place of "repudiation", which is the breaking of the fundamental terms of a contract, in such a way that the contract is substantially not fulfilled. Nevertheless, should a court decide, it could rescind a credit agreement, as indeed, could the parties to it (without court intervention) should they agree.

 

And of course, unlawful termination is possible - a lender simply does not fulfil the contract and demonstrates that they will not do so in a way other than is allowed under applicable laws. Perhaps you should look up your facts before posting in future

Link to post
Share on other sites

I may be mistaken, but I believe that X20s case was settled at the door of the court.

Had it been presented to a judge, it would've been subject to the judge lottery.

Who knows where it would've ended.

 

On a different point, is anybody else looking forward to the thread where X20 and peterbard "discuss" this issue?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Afternoon All

 

I have a small question with regards to MBNA and a Default Notice. I have my own thread but just want to clarify something with people who know more than me.

 

A mate of mine struck a deal with MBNA for a short settlement which was agreed in writing for payment on a set date. He called MBNA on the date agreed to make payment to be informed that the account had been defaulted and payment couldn't be made. He then sent of a SAR so he could check his statements, only to find out that MBNA had charged off the account 1 month previous to the agreed payment date and the balance was ZERO. Then out of the blue the said default arrived in the post which was invalid as it only gave him 10 days to resolve and the resolution date was 30 days after the original agreed date. Make sense.

 

How can this be? his credit file shows MBNA defaulting the account 30 days before the original agreed short settlement date.

 

Confusing I know but could someone shed some light as it all went very quiet and today he's received a call from the outfit debt clear something or other starting to chase again.

 

The one thing that worries me is they never issued him with a termination notice. and after all this time he's worried that they will issue a new correct one and have him over.

 

The other consulation is the copy of the original CCA is pants. No prescribed terms but as we are all aware that's a judge lottery

 

Thanks

Scrapper Coco 8-)

"I just want to make people silky-smooth!"

 

Scrapper vs MBNA Partial Settlement Success. Saved £13,000 :lol:

Scrapper vs Barclays Bank Plc PPI Reclaim Success £5,500 :lol:

Scrapper vs Barclaycard Partial Settlement Success. Saved £6,000 :lol:

 

Scrapper vs Tesco's FOS upheld complaint. Possible court action to get default removed

 

Scrapper vs Egg (Barclaycard) Awaiting FOS

 

Scrapper vs Barclays Bank Plc Offered made & Refused. This means war :-x

Scrapper vs Barclaycard (Cabot) Waiting 4 years for CCA. Cabot advised irresolvable :lol:

 

Scrapper vs Intelligent Finance. Success

 

Scrapper vs Picture (Webb Resolutions) Success

 

 

Beginner's guide

 

Advice & opinions given by Scrapper are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Guest HeftyHippo
I may be mistaken, but I believe that X20s case was settled at the door of the court.

Had it been presented to a judge, it would've been subject to the judge lottery.

Who knows where it would've ended.

Thats why it was settled at the door, and why the various lenders are reluctnat to go to court, they know they could lose and encourage similar agruments against them. Far easier to just keep defaulting you and harrassing you in the hope that you'll give in,. They know as well as we do that the ICO, OFT, FSO etc are totally unable and unwilling to rein these **** in and to enforce a decent standard of behaviour.

Link to post
Share on other sites

style="text-align: center;">  

Thread Locked

because no one has posted on it for the last 4962 days.

If you need to add something to this thread then

 

Please click the "Report " link

 

at the bottom of one of the posts.

 

If you want to post a new story then

Please

Start your own new thread

That way you will attract more attention to your story and get more visitors and more help 

 

Thanks

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 Caggers

    • No registered users viewing this page.

  • Have we helped you ...?


×
×
  • Create New...