Halifax Credit card CCA

[Indebt1]

I had an agreement to pay £80 pm just missed one and they want me to fill out a form with my earnings, only question should the cca be a dud especially with the dodgy terms and conditions am i admitting to anything by filling this out?

[Fingers60]

I had an agreement to pay £80 pm just missed one and they want me to fill out a form with my earnings, only question should the cca be a dud especially with the dodgy terms and conditions am i admitting to anything by filling this out?

 

Hey Indebt

 

Just to let you know that I have appointed a 2nd bunch of lawyers the first were very slow albeit they said my cca was dodgy.

Whe I get their full legal opinion i writing i will let you know.

 

In the meantime in asnwer to your question, i cant see how making an arrangement with a creditor can invalidate the fact that they have a dodgy cca. Personally, i would just offer them the monthly amount take it or leave it. I would be cautious about signing anything. I think the point about earnings / wealth is irrelvant anyway because it bares no consequence on the point here , which is "cant pay, wont pay". If you had £1M in the bank & a dodgy cca , doesnt mean you have to pay them back unless the court agrees that the cca is enfoecable.

 

F

[r&b]

I had an agreement to pay £80 pm just missed one and they want me to fill out a form with my earnings, only question should the cca be a dud especially with the dodgy terms and conditions am i admitting to anything by filling this out?

 

just cos they WANT doesnt mean they get:wink:

[mhill716600]

Hi All,

 

Just received a reply from Halifax. regarding a CCA for my Halifax one card.

 

it reads "i have enclosed with this letter a copy of your reconstituted version of the executed agreement, a copy of your current terms and conditions and a signed statment of your account"

 

Firstly i cannot see any signature on any of the paperwork for a statement of account,and they have not sent me a copy of the signed agreement to which i asked for, What do i do now.

 

By the way it was from Anne P Gartshore

 

Thanks in advance

 

MH

[42man]

It seems they don't have a copy of your agreement - in which case you could try this - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/173201-why-you-shouldnt-use.html . I think in direct response then you could edit this and send recorded - http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/582-possible-letter-when-a-questionable-agreementapplication-is-sent

[mhill716600]

Thanks 42man,

 

The original letters i sent did ask for a true signed copy, i have just sent a account in dispute letter.

 

MH

[r&b]

Thanks 42man,

 

The original letters i sent did ask for a true signed copy, i have just sent a account in dispute letter.

 

MH

a s77/78 reply can be compliant without providing copies of a signed fully enforceable agreement, thereby sidestepping the account being in dispute.

[mhill716600]

Hi r&b, what is the best thing to do next

 

Regards

 

MH

[r&b]

depends what u want the end game to be. but generally nothing.

if u want to play hardball n take em to court i would suggest sending every request u can: SAR (for all other dets) if u havent already, CPR 31.16, in an effort to ensure thats all they have then haul em into court seeking s.142 unenforceability.

[mhill716600]

Cheers for that, i think i will send a SAR and see what happens.

 

 

MH:)

[Fingers60]

Hey all - an update

 

So after receipt of a copy of my so called original CCA with the disproportionately sized T & Cs on the reverse (see below), i went to a CMC as they were using a certain law firm i wanted to tap into.

 

http://i41.tinypic.com/f4l939.jpg

The apparent T & Cs are on the back of this document http://i44.tinypic.com/k0prah.jpg

 

Cutting a long story short the CMC were useless so I had to ditch them and went directly to another reputable law firm to take matters forward.

They looked at copies of both the above docs and happy to take matters forward. They asked for the original copy of what Halifax had sent me (which i had sent to the CMC) and low and behold the CMC has lost them !!! ararrrrgghhh !!!

 

So i have the copies on 2 seperate pages but not the fraudulant document halifax had cut and pasted.

 

How relevant is the original document to my case ?

 

-i have copies of what they sent me and saw the original and i can sign a witness statement to the effect

 

-if requested again by my current lawyer they are either going to provide a copy of the same document (unlikely) as advice is its unenforecable or just the front page cca without the t & cs which is unenforceable ,so either way they have no enforceable cca

 

My new lawyer (well the admin guy at the law firm) has suggested pre-action disclosure to get another copy but this could take many months.

 

Should my lawyer be going straight for declaration of unenforcability through the courts based on what we have already ?

 

Any thoughts here would be great as always !

 

Best

 

Fingers

Edited October 21, 2009 by Fingers60

[diddydicky]

Hey all - an update

 

So after receipt of a copy of my so called original CCA with the disproportionately sized T & Cs on the reverse (see below), i went to a CMC as they were using a certain law firm i wanted to tap into.

 

http://i41.tinypic.com/f4l939.jpg

The apparent T & Cs are on the back of this document http://i44.tinypic.com/k0prah.jpg

 

Cutting a long story short the CMC were useless so I had to ditch them and went directly to another reputable law firm to take matters forward.

They looked at copies of both the above docs and happy to take matters forward. They asked for the original copy of what Halifax had sent me (which i had sent to the CMC) and low and behold the CMC has lost them !!! ararrrrgghhh !!!

 

So i have the copies on 2 seperate pages but not the fraudulant document halifax had cut and pasted.

 

How relevant is the original document to my case ?

 

-i have copies of what they sent me and saw the original and i can sign a witness statement to the effect

 

-if requested again by my current lawyer they are either going to provide a copy of the same document (unlikely) as advice is its unenforecable or just the front page cca without the t & cs which is unenforceable ,so either way they have no enforceable cca

 

My new lawyer (well the admin guy at the law firm) has suggested pre-action disclosure to get another copy but this could take many months.

 

Should my lawyer be going straight for declaration of unenforcability through the courts based on what we have already ?

 

Any thoughts here would be great as always !

 

Best

 

Fingers

 

I would start on the basis of not suggesting that what they sent is fraudulent,

 

a SAR would probably get you the information in 40 days

 

cant see why 31.16 would take "months" you could force them to produce within weeks if they do not comply with your 7 day request then another 7 days leeway

 

also your lawyers should be looking at the unenforceability of a pre contractual application form which cannot bind you to a future agreement??

 

IMO i would sit tight and "lull them into" issuing proceedings and showing their hand (not that they will) BEFORE giving them the bad news that you will use a lawyer.

 

If you want to force the issue yourself fine, otherwise why "waste" money on a brief until/unless you have to?

 

Your lawyer will likely not be able to give you any better advice than you can get on here

 

qualified as he may be- the folk on here have been there , done that and got the T shirts!!

 

dick

[Fingers60]

I would start on the basis of not suggesting that what they sent is fraudulent,

 

a SAR would probably get you the information in 40 days

 

cant see why 31.16 would take "months" you could force them to produce within weeks if they do not comply with your 7 day request then another 7 days leeway

 

also your lawyers should be looking at the unenforceability of a pre contractual application form which cannot bind you to a future agreement??

 

IMO i would sit tight and "lull them into" issuing proceedings and showing their hand (not that they will) BEFORE giving them the bad news that you will use a lawyer.

 

If you want to force the issue yourself fine, otherwise why "waste" money on a brief until/unless you have to?

 

Your lawyer will likely not be able to give you any better advice than you can get on here

 

qualified as he may be- the folk on here have been there , done that and got the T shirts!!

 

dick

 

Thanks Dick

 

I am still paying min payments and will have to take the fight to them rather than stop paying etc.

 

ref 31.16 i am going down this route on another card and lenders are getting wise and starting to ask for longer hearings than 20 mins, for example one lender went back to the court and requested 2 hours to debate the arguments of them providing the agreement...they were granted an ajournment and not many free slots for 2 hour hearings so the initial hearing was then delayed another 5 months !!! so when i say it takes months i speak from experince !

 

yes cag is excellent it really is...but i have been doing all this myself since febuary thsi year and my 1st attempt at a cpr hearing has resulted in having to write a 4 page complaint letter agaisnst the maladministartion agaisnt the court clerks ( a long old story!)...i work full time and have done most of the hard work getting all the CCAs and now handing it over for litigation...but if you have the time yes i completely agree with you.

Lawyers working on no win no fee conditional fee agreement..was a £200 upfront fee.

 

Thansk for your comments mate

 

Fingers

[diddydicky]

Thanks Dick

 

I am still paying min payments and will have to take the fight to them rather than stop paying etc.

 

ref 31.16 i am going down this route on another card and lenders are getting wise and starting to ask for longer hearings than 20 mins, for example one lender went back to the court and requested 2 hours to debate the arguments of them providing the agreement...they were granted an ajournment and not many free slots for 2 hour hearings so the initial hearing was then delayed another 5 months !!! so when i say it takes months i speak from experince !

 

yes cag is excellent it really is...but i have been doing all this myself since febuary thsi year and my 1st attempt at a cpr hearing has resulted in having to write a 4 page complaint letter agaisnst the maladministartion agaisnt the court clerks ( a long old story!)...i work full time and have done most of the hard work getting all the CCAs and now handing it over for litigation...but if you have the time yes i completely agree with you.

Lawyers working on no win no fee conditional fee agreement..was a £200 upfront fee.

 

Thansk for your comments mate

 

Fingers

 

ah yes cfa and 200 upfront is good ( wouldn't mind you pm'ing me a contact number - i do like to introduce a lawyer once they are committed- just to give them a costs bashing!!)

[the_shadow]

Hi Fingers,

 

The copy you have kept, is that a complete copy of the agreement?

 

S.

[Fingers60]

Hi Fingers,

 

The copy you have kept, is that a complete copy of the agreement?

 

S.

 

Hi Shadow

 

Yes it is a complete copy of the front and back of the agreement.

 

F

[the_shadow]

I apologise if I'm dredging up old stuff.. I have read through the thread but am struggling...

 

 

1) You have a complete copy of the agreement which you say is unenforceable as no prescribed terms, these obviously being.. credit limit or how they notify you, interest rate and how repayments are made/allocated etc.

 

2) You've requested under s78 a copy and they've provided agreements which dont match what you were originally given and signed.

 

What is the aim here? as you appear to have an unenforceable agreement, is it for a CMC to get the debt written off properly? bearing in mind this may touch on the test case aspect for still reporting to CRA's as contract exists, just not enforceable.

 

S.

[Fingers60]

I apologise if I'm dredging up old stuff.. I have read through the thread but am struggling...

 

 

1) You have a complete copy of the agreement which you say is unenforceable as no prescribed terms, these obviously being.. credit limit or how they notify you, interest rate and how repayments are made/allocated etc.

 

2) You've requested under s78 a copy and they've provided agreements which dont match what you were originally given and signed.

 

What is the aim here? as you appear to have an unenforceable agreement, is it for a CMC to get the debt written off properly? bearing in mind this may touch on the test case aspect for still reporting to CRA's as contract exists, just not enforceable.

 

S.

 

Hi S

 

1) yes the original agreemnet i signed did not have the t & c's on the reverse of the credit agreement...the t & cs contain the prescribed terms

 

2) yes, the 1st page matches eg http://i41.tinypic.com/f4l939.jpg but they have copied t & cs and photocopied them on the reverse of the above page eg http://i44.tinypic.com/k0prah.jpg

 

3) yes aim is to get debt written off via my lawyers properly..i am still paying minimum payments...

 

Not aware of the test case you touch on above ref CRAs etc ?

 

Best

 

F

[the_shadow]

Hi S

 

1) yes the original agreemnet i signed did not have the t & c's on the reverse of the credit agreement...the t & cs contain the prescribed terms

 

2) yes, the 1st page matches eg http://i41.tinypic.com/f4l939.jpg but they have copied t & cs and photocopied them on the reverse of the above page eg http://i44.tinypic.com/k0prah.jpg

 

3) yes aim is to get debt written off via my lawyers properly..i am still paying minimum payments...

 

Ok, so why the need for a copy from the other side...?? if you have shown your solicitors the original copy you have of the agreement and they agree its unenforceable then they should be seeking a declaration from the court.

 

If however they need to bolster their confidence and have a copy of a supposed agreement from the creditor and the creditor are not playing ball under s78 then the only alternative is under cPR 31.16 or to issue proceedings and use the AQ stage to ask for disclosure.

 

Alas the creditors are now getting wise to CMC's requesting agreements and sending them the same old tosh that everyone else gets I'm afraid.

 

Although it will trash your credit rating the creditors normally take more notice when people stop paying them.

 

Not aware of the test case you touch on above ref CRAs etc ?

A number of cases which deal with CCA1974 issues are to be heard in a court in manchester early next year...

 

One thats already been heard is a case involving an enforceable agreement that was temporarily unenforceable due to a invalid s78 response. The claimant wanted the bank to stop reporting the status of the debt to the CRA's as the account was in dispute as the s78 hadnt been responded to. The judge agreed with the defendant that the contract still existed and the agreement would have been enforceable as soon as the s78 response was fixed so they could still report to CRA's. The banks and DCA's are reading into this that they can report even when the debt is not enforceable... .not entirely true but hey ho!

 

S.

[Fingers60]

Ok, so why the need for a copy from the other side...?? if you have shown your solicitors the original copy you have of the agreement and they agree its unenforceable then they should be seeking a declaration from the court.

 

If however they need to bolster their confidence and have a copy of a supposed agreement from the creditor and the creditor are not playing ball under s78 then the only alternative is under cPR 31.16 or to issue proceedings and use the AQ stage to ask for disclosure.

 

Alas the creditors are now getting wise to CMC's requesting agreements and sending them the same old tosh that everyone else gets I'm afraid.

 

Although it will trash your credit rating the creditors normally take more notice when people stop paying them.

 

A number of cases which deal with CCA1974 issues are to be heard in a court in manchester early next year...

 

One thats already been heard is a case involving an enforceable agreement that was temporarily unenforceable due to a invalid s78 response. The claimant wanted the bank to stop reporting the status of the debt to the CRA's as the account was in dispute as the s78 hadnt been responded to. The judge agreed with the defendant that the contract still existed and the agreement would have been enforceable as soon as the s78 response was fixed so they could still report to CRA's. The banks and DCA's are reading into this that they can report even when the debt is not enforceable... .not entirely true but hey ho!

 

S.

 

Hi S

 

Yes I agree and this is clearer for me now. Thank you !

 

Ah yes the old "account is in dispute" and under the banking code...having worked for banks in the past i know they dont necessarily adhear to the banking code !! its just a voluantary bollox scheme !!!

Even though I put this account is dispute...i am still paying payments and will not cease to until a lawyer says its ok and my CR will not be trashed !

 

Shadow you are a legend thx for helping me on this !

 

Fingers

[Dotty50]

Hi Fingers,

 

I see you are still paying minimum payments.

 

I reluctantly stopped in July as they had not responded to my CCA request in April. Have had copies since which may be enforceable.

 

I have spoken to them and they have agreed to reduce my interest rate from 29% down to 12.6% and will not add any further late fees providing I make reduced payments for a period of 12 months. There are other conditions which I won't bore you with but the person I spoke to said that if I had called them before stopping payment then they may have reduced the rate on a permanent basis as this was not a problematic account.

 

A call to them may be of use if you are on a high rate.

[Fingers60]

Hi Fingers,

 

I see you are still paying minimum payments.

 

I reluctantly stopped in July as they had not responded to my CCA request in April. Have had copies since which may be enforceable.

 

I have spoken to them and they have agreed to reduce my interest rate from 29% down to 12.6% and will not add any further late fees providing I make reduced payments for a period of 12 months. There are other conditions which I won't bore you with but the person I spoke to said that if I had called them before stopping payment then they may have reduced the rate on a permanent basis as this was not a problematic account.

 

A call to them may be of use if you are on a high rate.

 

Hey Dotty

 

Thanks for your advice. I did try before but the only thing they wanted to offer me was to refinance the credit card onto a loan...i wonder why ??!! perhaps they wanted me to sign a new credit agreement that was enforceable !!

 

I must say the card companies behave in quite a horrific way. I called Virgin my biggest card, spent an hour going through all my income / expenditure, explained I could not make an "arrangement" as this would effect my job...and was told sorry because you are "high risk we are keeping the interest rate high on your account" persumably squeezing as much interest out of me b4 I go POP !!! Crazy really..

 

halifax have also just written to me saying unless I close the account so it becomes just a repayable debt..they are going to ramp up the interest....again squeezing as much interest out of me before i get their agreement declared unenforecable!

 

Best

 

Fingers

[Dotty50]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/getting-out-debt/200906-halifax-cca.html

 

It's a pleasure, here is my thread if it's of any help to you.

 

Perhaps me sending in a lengthy letter of complaint helped and they replied giving me a priority customer personal contact, I must admit I just expected to get the usual pressure to pay, but there was none at all.

 

I too have a Virgin thread and another MBNA one, don't speak to them on the phone, that's what everyone advises on here. Virgin have sent what they purport to be a CCA but the other MBNA one have yet to even acknowledge my CCA request from the end of April. I stopped paying these in July and await further action by them.

 

I never wanted to stop because of my credit rating and I know some people have to struggle to pay because of their jobs but I just had enough in the end. I still have a long way to go but CAG is a godsend.

 

Good luck

D50

[Fingers60]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/getting-out-debt/200906-halifax-cca.html

 

It's a pleasure, here is my thread if it's of any help to you.

 

Perhaps me sending in a lengthy letter of complaint helped and they replied giving me a priority customer personal contact, I must admit I just expected to get the usual pressure to pay, but there was none at all.

 

I too have a Virgin thread and another MBNA one, don't speak to them on the phone, that's what everyone advises on here. Virgin have sent what they purport to be a CCA but the other MBNA one have yet to even acknowledge my CCA request from the end of April. I stopped paying these in July and await further action by them.

 

I never wanted to stop because of my credit rating and I know some people have to struggle to pay because of their jobs but I just had enough in the end. I still have a long way to go but CAG is a godsend.

 

Good luck

D50

 

Thanks Dotty

[angel_1]

hiya fingers

 

wondered how you getting on with this one?

 

hope you are well

 

catch up soon laters angel x