Halifax Credit card CCA

[Fingers60]

Hi All

 

I have requested a copy of my Halifax CCA. However, just in case I have they have not lost it I found a copy !!!(copy below)

 

I will follow the procedures outlined in this forum with regards necessary correspondence. The CCA does not have any of the prescribed terms so to be looks unenforceable.

 

Has anyone gone to court with a similar Halifax CCA and what was the outcome?

 

Knowing that Halifax will know this is unenforceable how easily will they roll over here ?!!

 

And one last question, when you look at the various CCAs across the banks where a number may have 1 prescribed term missing and others a few or all etc...is there a degree of enforceability ie. the more prescribed terms missing the less likely it can be enforced? or is more black and white that that in your view eg 1 missing = enforceable?

 

Cheers

 

Fingers

 

http://i41.tinypic.com/f4l939.jpg

[angel_1]

hiya fingers60

 

wow that was really lucky - id keep that well hidden from halifax, lol

 

that is a pure gem i think, the one i had is not like yours but ive seen others very similar so i would recommend you look at the halifax specific threads and see if you can follow a thread that has got similar to you and they may help you further

 

i wish id kept copies of all mine, one of my friends i think has got something similar so if i will refer to you and see whether you can help each other

 

well just wait and see what you get back, post it up too without your info of course and we can see what advice is for you next to follow

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/162851-consumer-credit-agreements.html

 

ive understood that all the specific prescribed terms need to be there for the type of agreement it is, i will be back to refer you to a thread by steven who explains it really well,

 

 

laters angel x im subbed to this thread by the way

Edited February 15, 2009 by angel_1
added link to stevens thread useful

[angel_1]

hello fingers60 many thanks for your rep tick, much appreciated

 

i always keep going back to stevens thread when i get unsure and then i think - i am NOT going mad, lol,,,, but hey all this is a self learning site and you have to understand what your own questions are and then try and find the answers around the site and from peoples comments that kind of make the solution more understandable to you

 

ive learnt so much legal stuff and to think back a year ago i was begging these creditors on the phone to let me pay over a few months the arrears and the threats of charging orders etc, still send a shiver down my back, i faced losing my home and im back on the right road since xmas with arrears paid partly and rest put back on the mortgage and now paying ontime the monthly mortgage amount, i learnt all about my priorty debts come first the rest of the unsecured creditors can have left over from my budget after my living costs,

 

so please stay positive and also remember, unfortunately with lots of people who will sadly lose their jobs this year, the situation for the country as a whole we will find a lot more people in the country will be facing what we are already facing today, but for you who has found cag, its a lot more bearable i promise

 

keep positive laters angel x

[babydoll0141917]

Hi

 

i have a halifax CCa the same as yours ..but on the back of mine i have conditions of use ...do you have anything on the reverse??..the reason why i ask this is there is nothing on the front of the CCA to say that conditions of use are on the reverse..there is no overleaf,code numbers dont match and no page numbers,,In fact on the front of the CCA it says you have received a copy of the conditions of use which avers to them being in another document...there are many of us that have these CCAs ..but we all seem to have different things printed on the back ..i havent payed Halifax for a yr..im still disputing mine..

[babydoll0141917]

subbing

[cds]

if there are no prescribed terms its unenforceable

 

whether there are terms and conditions or not

 

cds

[Fingers60]

Thanks for your kind words and support Angel appreciated. Sounds like you have got your life back which is great and chuffed for you keep it up !

 

Babydoll - I cant remember if there was a reverse or not. If there was I only photocopied the front page. When Halifax respond to my cca request I will post it on here for all to see.

 

Cheers guys keep up the good work.

[angel_1]

hiya fingers and all

 

only sharing my thoughts and passing on a little kindness that i was given in my early days

 

just learn as much as you can along the journey

 

laters angel x

[Fingers60]

Hi ya All

 

Following my CCA request I have today received the following 3 documents below. None of the documents contain my original signed CCA and as you know I have a copy of this in my posession on file already and we know it is unenforceable!

 

http://i43.tinypic.com/2cft6pv.jpg

 

http://i44.tinypic.com/ieedfr.jpg

 

http://i40.tinypic.com/24obwnt.jpg

 

I received exactly the same format response for my Intelligent Finance credit card which are part of Halifax Bank of Scotland group so I assume this is now their standard response across the group?

 

Do you think they are sending these 3 letters out when they have a copy of the CCA and know its unenforcable or just because they know they have probably lost it ?!

 

The 2nd 2 documents are the front pages of a CCA they have knocked up with my name and current address on..and the 2nd document is the same but for my old address which is the address when I took the card out.

It looks like they have just reprinted the T & Cs from the time I took my card out and reprinted them with my name and old address on. It does not correspond in any way to the original CCA copy I have on file.

 

Please can you advise me on the paragraph in bold in their covering letter.."we are not required to provide a copy of the original signed agreement under section 78 of the consumer credit act"...is this correct?

 

How would you suggest I proceed given they have sent me the above docs?

 

Do I now proceed with the formal "account in dispute" letter, which gives them another 28 days to come up with the original ?

 

As you know I have a copy of the actual unenforcable CCA so just curious if you think I should be playing this differently from this point onwards?

 

Cheers guys

 

Fingers

Edited February 19, 2009 by Fingers60
added info

[Hugh Jeffort]

Hi Fingers,

 

My OH recieved the same standard HBOS response too so i'll be interested to see what people have to say!!! Its good that you have your orig CCA, that little gem can come out later!!

 

Good luck although you may not need it on this one!!!!

[42man]

Just one question how old is the account ?

[42man]

It seems all they have sent is the terms and conditions !!

 

Dear Sirs,

 

Account Number: XXX

 

Re; your recent reply to my request under section 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

I note that you have replied to the above by sending your companies current Terms and conditions I must inform you that this is not sufficient to comply with the request and that your company is still in default under the act.

 

To clarify, just sending the Terms and Conditions is a breach of the Act and Regulations as, apart from the information that the Regulations provide that you may exclude, the copy must be a “true copy” of the agreement.

 

This breach of the agreement can be demonstrated as follows;

As you will know section 180(1) (b) authorises, “the omission from a copy of certain material from the original, or the inclusion of certain material in condensed form.” This refers to statutory instruments made under the heading Copies of document regulations and in this care in particular to SI 1983/1557.

 

Before leaving section 180 there are two other sections that should be remembered these are:

 

Section 2(2) (a) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not satisfied unless the copy supplied is in the prescribed form and conforms to the prescribed requirements;

 

And more importantly

 

Section 2(b) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not infringed by the omission of any material, or its inclusion in condensed form, if that is authorised by regulations.

 

You will see that this quite clearly states that whilst certain items may be left out of the copy document the rest of the document must be in the form and contain all items as prescribed by the regulations.

 

Turning to the regulations regarding what may be omitted from these copies these are contained with SI 1983/1557.

 

The regulations state:

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancelable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

 

It is quite clear what can be omitted from the copy document, this again asserts that all other details of the agreement should presented in form and content as required by the regulations.

 

The requirements of the Agreement regulations 1983/1553 are very explicit in describing the form and content of an agreement and this as I have demonstrated also applies to the copy of any such agreement with the above mentioned proviso.

 

Nowhere within these regulations does it state that part of the agreement can be presented on a separate document headed terms and conditions.

It does state that all terms and conditions should be within the agreement document and is explicit of the form in which it is presented.

 

I hope this explains why your reply was unacceptable I await a True copy of my agreement and would remind you again that whilst the request has not been complied with the default continues

 

Yours faithfully

[angel_1]

hiya fingers

 

it is exactly what i got too on my bos card cca request, so am awaiting on sars info now the clock is ticking

 

otherwise i will then use the cpr rule as my account is fully terminated now

 

laters angel x

[42man]

If the account is less than 6 years old then you could send them this

 

Dear xxxx,

 

Thank you for your letter dated xxxx, however I find it difficult to believe that you have mislaid such an important document as the copy of the credit agreement.

 

As I am sure you are aware; especially with the recent highlighted cases of 'lost' data, which seems to be a serious issue I was led to believe that you are legally obliged to keep copy agreements for a 6 year period. As I’m sure you are aware, this 6 year period starts from the closing of an account not the opening of one.

 

 

It would appear that you have failed in your obligations to comply with the various anti money laundering regulations in not keeping such documents. This, as I’m sure you are aware, is a very serious offence.

 

I now require the balance of this account to be returned to zero.

 

Please note you may also consider this letter a statutory notice under Section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect. This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and from my records with any credit reference agencies. Should you refuse to comply, you must within 14 days provide me with a detailed breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data. It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’, you must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends.

 

Should you fail to respond within 14 days, I will expect that this means you agree to remove all such data.

 

Furthermore, you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take any action against an account whilst it remains in dispute. The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following would apply:

• You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.
  
• You may not add any further interest or charges to the account.
  
• You may not pass the account to any third party.
  
• You may not register any information in respect of the account with any of the credit reference agencies.
  
• You may not issue a default notice related to the account.
  

Please be aware, the CCA 1974 is very clear that a default can only be issued for breach of a valid, regulated agreement. As there is no agreement a default cannot be lawfully issued as no valid, regulated agreement has been breached.

I would ask that you review this account and respond favourably within 14 days of the date of this letter. Failure to do so will result in me reporting this matter to The Financial Crime Branch of HM Treasury and any other authorities as I see fit.

 

I look forward to your reply in due course.

 

Yours faithfully

[babydoll0141917]

Hi ..when i was sent my CCa from haliprats i had the same front has you ...with Conditions of Use on the back ..when i asked for it again ..they sent the same front with the same conditions of use on a different sheet of paper and not on the reverse..looking at what they have sent you is the same that is on the reverse of my doc Just conditions of use..i didnt get no current terms sent or any statement of accounts,,There are a lot of use disputing this kinda CCa has there is no indication that the Condition were on the back,,,yet i did read on another thread WILKO999 thread that he was taken to court with this version of CCA and lost

[Fingers60]

hi 42man

 

i signed my ccs with halifax in sep 03....so it is within 6 years of age

 

should i fire off your first letter....to give them amother 28 days to produce the original CCA? if they fail then they are comitting an offence?

 

and then fire the the 2nd 6 year letter off?

 

does anyone know the answer to my other question below

 

"Please can you advise me on the paragraph in bold in their covering letter.."we are not required to provide a copy of the original signed agreement under section 78 of the consumer credit act"...is this correct?"

 

keep your opinions suggestions coming !!!

[Hugh Jeffort]

Sorry to butt in again Fingers,

42man - With your letter does the age of the account matter if its still open?

Was confused why you asked how old Fingers acc. was??? Sorry to be a pain, I know its just me missing a point!! Seem to be doing that alot at the mo!!

[LG29]

will start own thread

Edited March 17, 2009 by LG29
contained personal reference

[rory32]

With your letter does the age of the account matter if its still open?

Was confused why you asked how old Fingers acc. was??? Sorry to be a pain, I know its just me missing a point!! Seem to be doing that alot at the mo!!

The time limit runs from the ending of the business relationship. It does not matter how old the account is.

 

From the Money Laundering Regulations 2007:

Record-keeping

19.—(1) Subject to paragraph (4), a relevant person must keep the records specified in

paragraph (2) for at least the period specified in paragraph (3).

(2) The records are—

(a) a copy of, or the references to, the evidence of the customer’s identity obtained pursuant

to regulation 7, 8, 10, 14 or 16(4);

(b) the supporting records (consisting of the original documents or copies) in respect of a

business relationship or occasional transaction which is the subject of customer due

diligence measures or ongoing monitoring.

(3) The period is five years beginning on—

(a) in the case of the records specified in paragraph (2)(a), the date on which—

(i) the occasional transaction is completed; or

(ii) the business relationship ends; or

(b) in the case of the records specified in paragraph (2)(b)—

(i) where the records relate to a particular transaction, the date on which the transaction

is completed;

(ii) for all other records, the date on which the business relationship ends.

[rory32]

LG29 you need to start your own thread.

[Hugh Jeffort]

Thanks Rory32,

 

I thought 42man's letter was really good and straight to the point. Wanted to make sure I was understanding the 6 year thing correctly!!

 

Thanks again

[rory32]

I thought 42man's letter was really good and straight to the point.

Thanks It's actually my letter. He just nicked it.

[Fingers60]

Quote:

I thought 42man's letter was really good and straight to the point.

Thanks It's actually my letter. He just nicked it.

 

lol

 

Thanks Rory.

 

F

[Fingers60]

Hey all hope you are keeping well. An update for you;

 

After I received the covering letter with details of my card and printed T & Cs I fired for 42man's dispute letter asking for a copy of my actual CCA.

Thanks to 42man, a copy of the cca arrived yesterday.

They have sent me the front page of the cca which I already had a copy of http://i41.tinypic.com/f4l939.jpg

 

The apparent T & Cs are on the back of this document http://i44.tinypic.com/k0prah.jpg Now you may recall from one of my posts above that when I first applied for my CCA Hali sent me the standard HBOS response which included a) covering letter with your current credit card details on there eg balance / limit etc http://i43.tinypic.com/2cft6pv.jpg b) printed out T & Cs from from my original application date including my name and old address within the first page for my old address when I took the cc out http://i44.tinypic.com/ieedfr.jpg

 

It has been noted in previous posts about the suspicion of the lender just photocopying the T & Cs at the time onto the back of the copy of the CCA. If these T & Cs contain the prescribed terms and are on the back of the same document then I believe that it qualifies for the 4 corners rule and is therefore enforceable?(can anyone confirm this rule for me?)

 

But points to note that concern me here:

 

1) When I first asked for my cca they didnt provide it and sent me the document of printed T & Cs see point b) above. This document states "this is a copy of your agreement for you to keep". It also has my name and address printed near the top under "Halifax Credit Card - conditions of use". So one would assume this is a true copy of the of my agreement would it not? The document contains 13 points in total points 1 contain sub sections 1.1 to 1.6.

 

2) Now lets look at the reverse page of my pre-printed copy of my so called original agreement.

 

-it looks like they have just cut and pasted the T & Cs from somewhere onto the back of the copy of the CCA.

They have reproduced points 1.1 to 1.6 from the first document B as above because section 1 of their total of 13 points contains the prescribed terms .

 

-there is no link on page 1 to the reverse page saying "see T & Cs overleaf" etc - no corresponding reference numbers etc

 

-the reproduced text is totally out of proportion to the a4 page size and indeed the text overleaf

 

3) It is interesting to note other caggers posts on "Halifix's" cca agreements and what they have received..note the following link http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/176296-could-anyone-tell-me.html

 

-in this post wilko999 has scanned in the front copy of the cca and he goes on to note..."on the reverse" is scanned the important information section of the T & Cs section 1.1 to 1.6....so therefore Halifax are saying this is a true copy of the original document

 

4) now look at this caggers post http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/184446-help-please-dca-saying.html

 

-wilko999 states the following:

 

"exactly the same as mine - and mine was enforceable" when questioned why as no prescribed terms he states "mine were on the reverse, I chanced it, went to court - I lost. Up to the poster to decide how they wish to go with it but just letting you know that's what happened to me"

 

when questioned on Halifix producing the original documents in court wilko999 goes on to state ..."When I was in court the documents produced were the original documents, the T's&C's were on a seperate page but they deemed them to be acceptable and part of the agreement as the agreement refered to them."

 

So.....in wilkos case Halifix have made an obvious attempt to create a true copy of the original document with the CCA on the front and the 1.1-1.6 T & Cs on the reverse...but when in court they have produced the original documents with both of the above on seperate pages ???!! WTF ??!!

 

So they know that both pages needed to have been on the same document to make it enforceable? I am surpised wilko didnt point out to the judge hat this was a blatant attempt at fraud ?

 

So they are sening out cut and shut documents , caggers post them up on here and they look enforceable....however have they not left a paper based audit trail to wilko and he had a copy of their so called back to back original but seperate original docs were produced in court ??!!

Is this not a deliberate attempt to deceive and could this be view as fraud?

 

So I now have a document the same as wilkos but in reality the original is different ?

 

Any thoughts here guys ???!!! Or should i put my sherlock holmes hat and pipe back in my cupboard ??!!

 

42 man ...what do you think?

 

F

Edited March 29, 2009 by Fingers60
post was wrong ..im a numpty !!

[Fingers60]

Hey Babydoll

 

I cannot find any link to WILKO999 's thread you mentioned , can you direct me or provide the link?

 

Cheers

 

F