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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
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Help and Advice Needed


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Hello,

 

I'm a new member and need some advice about a debt with Nat West.

 

I was contacted this morning completely out of the blue by someone from Wescot informing me that they had my Nat West debt and how was I going to pay the debt off.

 

The history of this is that my ex-husband took out a loan on our joint account over 10 years ago and when we split up Nat West hounded me for payment of the loan. I was first passed to Telford and agreed to pay them £5 per month. After a few years they then passed this loan onto Buchannan, Clark and Wells although I was not informed of this until I received a call from them threatening to take me to court for non payment.

 

I agreed a monthly payment with BCW and never defaulted on this, in November 2007 I phoned BCW asking for a new payment book, they informed me that Nat West had taken this loan back and to wait until Nat West contacted me.

 

I have had no contact from Nat West and had no idea that Wescot had this loan until this morning.

 

The first phone call I received he stated that I had defaulted on this loan as I had not paid since Nov 07. When I tried to explain the situation to him, he said he would contact his legal dept and put the phone down on me.

 

I then spoke to another lady, who stated that because I paid other creditors I should halve my payments to them and pay the rest to Westcot?

 

Can anyone help me with some advice as to where I should go from here? I spoke to CAB and they said as Wescot had refused my payment offer there is nothing more they could advise me but to speak to my Bank about a loan to pay off the Nat West Loan?

 

Sorry this post is so long.

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Hi and Welcome to CAG!

 

I would send of a cca request to ensure Wescot have the right to collect and all paperwork is in order.

 

I DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE ANY DEBT TO YOUR COMPANY OR ANY COMPANY YOU CLAIM TO REPRESENT

Re: Account no: xxxxxxxx

Thank you for your letter dated (enter date) which has been noted for future reference.

This letter is a formal request pursuant to s.77/78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. I require you to provide me with a true copy of the credit agreement relating to the above account, together with any other documentation the Act requires you to provide.

I expect you to comply fully and properly with this request, within the statutory time limit. You are reminded that should you fail to comply with my request, the provisions of s.77(6) will apply.

If it is your view that you are not the creditor, s.175 of the CCA 1974 applies in the case of a simple assignment, and places a duty upon you to pass this request to the creditor. In the case of an absolute assignment, you are a creditor as defined by s.189. If you contend that you purchased the rights but not the duties of any agreement, you are reminded that s.189 of the Act is clear that an assignment is of both rights and duties.

Your attention is drawn to ss.5(2), 3(b),6 and 7 of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (CPUTR).

If you are unable to comply fully and properly with this request, you should confirm this in writing at the earliest opportunity, and certainly within the statutory time limit for compliance.

Yours faithfully,

 

Include £1 postal order and print your name do not sign it and send recorded delviery to Wescot

 

Ida x

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First send them a CCA request to see if they are entitled to collect this debt & if it's enforcable. They have 12 + 2 days to comply to your request. If they fail or the CCA is unenforcable you can legally withold any payment until they do. Send it recorded delivery enclosing a £1 postal order. When you get a reply, scan it & remove any identifying details and post it back here where we can have a look at it. We'll advise you from there;

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re:- Account No: XXXXXXXX/Your Reference Number: XXXXXXX

 

This letter is a formal request pursuant to s.77/78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. I require you to provide me with a true copy of the credit agreement relating to the above account, together with any other documentation the Act requires you to provide.

 

I expect you to comply fully and properly with this request, within the statutory time limit. You are reminded that should you fail to comply with my request, the provisions of s.77 will apply.

 

If it is your view that you are not the creditor, s.175 of the CCA 1974 applies in the case of a simple assignment, and places a duty upon you to pass this request to the creditor. In the case of an absolute assignment, you are a creditor as defined by s.189. If you contend that you purchased the rights but not the duties of any agreement, you are reminded that s.189 of the Act is clear that an assignment is of both rights and duties.

 

Your attention is drawn to ss.5(2), 3(b),6 and 7 of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (CPUTR).

 

I enclose a postal order in the sum of £1.00, which is the statutory fee. Note that these funds are not to be used for any other purpose.

 

If you are unable to comply fully and properly with this request, you should confirm this in writing at the earliest opportunity, and certainly within the statutory time limit for compliance, and return the fee.

 

You should also note that I will only discuss this matter in writing and should it be your intention to arrange a “doorstep call”, please be advised that under OFT rules, you can only visit me at my home if you make an appointment and I have no wish to make an appointment with you or any of your associates.

 

There is only an implied license under English Common Law for people to be able to visit me on my property without express permission; the postman and people asking for directions etc (Armstrong v. Sheppard and Short Ltd [1959] 2 Q.B. per Lord Evershed M.R.). Therefore take note that I revoke license under Common Law for you, or your representatives to visit me at my property and if you do so, then you will be liable to damages for a tort of trespass and action will be taken, including but not limited to, police attendance.

 

I look forward to hearing from you.

 

Yours faithfully

 

(Print do not sign signature)

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Hi blueknight - welcome to CAG

 

Firstly, can you confirm that this was a loan with Nat West & not an overdraft?

 

2. If a loan, have you got a copy of the original agreement, if an overdraft a letter confirming details of terms etc? Have you ever applied for a copy of the credit agreement? If not, this would prob. be your starting point but post back with other details first.

 

3. Have you ever received a default notice from NW or a Notice of Assignment from NW or any other CRA? Is it possible that you have moved & not received these?

 

4. Most importantly, Westcot cannot just demand money from you over the phone. If they phone again, tell them to put everything in writing. Never, never speak to them.

 

5. Was this debt not included as part of your divorce settlement? i.e. although it is a joint loan & both your husband & you are jointly & severally liable for it, its existance should have been declared by your husband prior to the divorce & you may have a case for claiming against him but you would have to consult the solicitor who dealt with it on this.

Any knowledge I possess or advice I proffer is based solely on my experiences in the University of Life. Please make your own assessment of legality, risks & costs before taking any action.

 

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Additionally, buy yourself a telephone recorder and record all calls.

 

They will always have you at a disadvantage if you don't

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Hi,

 

Thank you for your quick responses.

 

The debt is for a loan and I do not have a copy of the original agreement.

 

I have never received a default notice or Notice of Assignment from NW or anyone else and all my post was being forwarded to my new address when I split up.

 

The debt was not declared by my ex and not included in any settlement. The settlement was quite complicated and at the time my solicitor said that I was liable to pay this loan as it was from a joint account, which is why I started paying NW in the first place.

 

I have no reference numbers from Westcot as it was just a phone call, but I will probably have something somewhere with a NW Ref No but if not will this matter when I write to them.

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Hi,

 

The debt is for a loan and I do not have a copy of the original agreement.

 

Send off for a CCA with the 'I do not acknowledge this debt' letter as above as soon as you hear from Westcot. It may be that they cannot produce on in which case you could put the account in dispute after 12+2 days & not make the payments if/until they produce an enforceable CCA. Look around the forum, you will soon get the hang of the process, or post back.

I have never received a default notice or Notice of Assignment from NW or anyone else and all my post was being forwarded to my new address when I split up.

 

They have to send you a default notice in the prescirbed format & also a NOA before they are entitled to collect the debt. It may not have much relevance now but will have if they attempt legal action against you.

 

The debt was not declared by my ex and not included in any settlement. The settlement was quite complicated and at the time my solicitor said that I was liable to pay this loan as it was from a joint account, which is why I started paying NW in the first place.

 

It may be that the solicitor accounted for it in the financial arrangements but I suggest you check with the sols.

 

I have no reference numbers from Westcot as it was just a phone call, but I will probably have something somewhere with a NW Ref No but if not will this matter when I write to them.

 

Westcot will contact you quickly enough if they have been assigned the debt. Suggest you wait for the post for the moment & in the meantime, refuse to speak to them on the phone. As BF advises, get yourself a telephone recorder - you may need to prove harrassment one day

FG

Any knowledge I possess or advice I proffer is based solely on my experiences in the University of Life. Please make your own assessment of legality, risks & costs before taking any action.

 

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Hi everyone,

 

I still have not received anything from Wescot in the mail although I have received five phone calls. This is despite telling them on the first call that I would like them to put everything in writing and stop phoning.

 

The reply I got was that they can't put anything in writing and that I was kidding myself!!

 

Anyway what I wanted to ask was although they haven't written to me I now have a reference number, so should I now send them a CCA request?

 

Although saying that I don't actually have an address to write to them!!

 

Besides all that, I would just like to say thank you for everyone that has ever written or replied to a post on whole of this forum (of which I've probably read most of them over the last few days) because if I'd never found this site I would be bawling my eyes out and getting myself all worked up that someone would be knocking at my door to take my stuff away. I'd also probably have agreed to everything they said on Friday and be paying them by now.

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Suggest you also include the 'harassment' letter with your CCA. Link to template here:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/letter-templates/131250-dca-creditor-harassment-telephone.html

Any knowledge I possess or advice I proffer is based solely on my experiences in the University of Life. Please make your own assessment of legality, risks & costs before taking any action.

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...

Hi,

 

By my calculations the 12 + 2 for Westcot was up today (they signed for letter on 16 Feb), received nothing from them or Nat West in the post this morning, does this mean I can now send the In Dispute letter today or will I have to wait until tomorrow?

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hi Everyone,

 

Well finally received a letter from Westcot (well over the 12+2 days) stating they had attached the original agreement and now require me to contact them within 7 days and pay the account in full!!! AS IF!!!

 

Am I right in thinking that Nat West should have sent a photocopy of the original signed agreement that my ex husband and I signed?

 

If so, what has been sent is not it. Unfortunately cannot scan in a copy as my scanner is not working. Trying to sort out, so hopefully will be able to copy later.

 

But in the meantime, basically the first page is headed Credit Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and then lists the Nat West address and underneath my old address.

 

It then lists what the loan was for, the amount and the interest rate. Then underneath that the Total Interest and the Normal Montly repayments.

 

At the bottom it says IMPORTANT - You should read this carefully YOUR RIGHTS and then says what the act covers and my right to cancel.

 

On a second seperate page it lists 14 conditions and then on another page it shows a schedule of arrears.

 

The schedule shows my new address, the balance drawn, amount paid, total arrears and balance on the account.

 

It then goes on to give a list of missed payments to date under the original agreement.

 

Nowhere on any of these three pages is a signature or does it show any of the payments I paid to Nat West when the account was first defaulted on. I was paying them £5 a month and then BCW £5 a month until Nat West took the loan back in November 2007.

 

Please can someone advise if this is valid and what my next step would be?

 

Many thanks in advance

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lol,

 

sorry didnlt notice,

 

was this an online application?

 

 

Ida x

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