Order for Recovery - unpaid penalty charge

[jfish]

Please help me with the following:

 

I received a PCN for "failing to drive in the direction shown by the arrow on a blue sign" - for £120 discounted to £60 if paid by so & so.

 

I did not want the price to go up whilst I fight it, so I wrote them my credit card details with a signature.

But as I was not the driver at the time, and the driver insisted he hasn't made this offence, so I wrote on the PCN (under representations) that they must not charge my card without first proving to me that the offence actually happened, so I could recover the costs from the driver.

 

They then replied with a "Notice of Rejection" with the same boring photos as on the PCN - which do not show any contravention - giving me another chance to pay the discounted rate.

 

I replied by email that: "I already gave you my credit card details on the previous form for you to charge the £60, I only asked you to provide me with evidence of the offence. If you need the c/c details again, then please reply by email, and I will fax or post it to you, or I can give it to you over the phone."

 

Not getting any reply - I followed up with another email 2 weeks later - and a third email another week later (3 weeks after my first email). Then their email address stopped working.

 

I then received a "Charge certificate" for £180.

 

I replied saying that it's wrong, as I did my part by giving them my c/c details but they failed to prove the offence and/or charge my c/c.

 

They then sent me another letter, stating between the rest: "The notice advised that failure to send full payment or make representations within 28 days will result in the issue of the charge certificate in which the charge will be increased by 50%. As no response has been received the charge certificate was duly isssued."

 

I then wrote back to them that: "I have proof that I did send payment on the first PCN received, and I have your acknowledgment that you received it. But I have NOT yet received any proof from you that the offence ever happened. So if you just continue in this way – sending threatening letters again and again without providing what I asked so many times – I will be prepared to go to court if necessary and prove that I did everything I had to do, but you did not do your job."

 

And... Today I received an "Order for recovery - unpaid penalty charge" for £180 + £5 "Court registration fee"...

 

NOW MY QUESTIONS TO YOU ARE:

1) Did I have the right to request clear proof of the offence BEFORE making any payment? or am I supposed to believe them blindly?

2) Is my submission of c/c details together with a representation - considered "paid"? or not?

 

Please advise how I should go about this, as I now have only 20 days to go. If you need any more information, or any documents scanned, I will be pleased to provide them.

 

Many thanks in advance for all your help and assistance!

[patdavies]

You can't pay and fight - it's one or the other.

 

As you attempted to do both, it would appear that the Council has treated your first communication as an appeal; rejected by them with the notice of rejection. At this point the penalty is £120.

 

As your further response only offered £60, it was not acceptable. They have now moved to charge certificate, which increase the penalty by 50% to £180.

 

The Council have failed to use any discretion, nor common sense. However, as you have now reached the charge certificate stage, it is too late to appeal to the adjudicator.

 

A further thought is that if you offered your C/C detail within the discounted period and did not use their form for the appeal or failed to appeal on any of the allowable grounds, then you did not formally appeal and they should have taken payment.

 

Somebody else should be along to advise how you go from here.

[adamna]

I see that the OP made a conditional offer of payment, and the conditions were reasonable.

It wasn't a question of pay or fight, it was I will pay if you can demonstrate that I should, because your evidence isn't adequate.

 

Can you post the pics?

 

Interesting position. Perhaps pay and take them to small claims court?

[jfish]

Many thanks for your replies.

(I was expecting an email notification that there are replies, as in other forums, but didn't get them)

 

Although I did fill out the representation form, I still feel like adamna, I did PAY the charge but with the condition that they send me proof. And I have all rights to be shown proof of the alleged offence, no?

 

___________

 

How do I attach photos here?

[angel88]

I would fight it until they provide proof. I had a NIP for suposedly going through a red light as a learner and asked for a photo of the offence and never heard back so I'm guessing they don't have one so I don't have to pay fine or get points which was great as I really didn't want points being a learner or I would of been back to learner if I got any more points in 1st 2 years after passing as you only need 6 to be back to learner in 1st 2 years. Still in that stage now til end of September this year but not got points up to now so should be ok hopefully.

 

So advise in any case ask for proof.

[jfish]

They actually sent me some photos as "proof", and I would like to put them up overhere - if someone could please tell me how.

 

Many thanks

[Desperate Daniella]

JFish,

 

Are you in London?

 

DD

[adamna]

I think the answer to posting pictures is 'photobucket' (Google it) or some other provider, it would be great to have a clear answer as a Sticky, lots of people ask this.

[adamna]

(I was expecting an email notification that there are replies, as in other forums, but didn't get them)

I had trouble with mine being regarded as spam by Tiscali. Took a long time to get that sorted with them. Check you've enabled it in your profile thingy though.

[green_and_mean]

NOW MY QUESTIONS TO YOU ARE:

1) Did I have the right to request clear proof of the offence BEFORE making any payment? or am I supposed to believe them blindly?

2) Is my submission of c/c details together with a representation - considered "paid"? or not?

 

Please advise how I should go about this, as I now have only 20 days to go. If you need any more information, or any documents scanned, I will be pleased to provide them.

 

Many thanks in advance for all your help and assistance!

 

The PCN should have stated that you have a right to view the CCTV evidence and/or appeal if you don't consider the vehicle had carried out the contravention. The PCN should clearly explain that you either pay or dispute the PCN, the issuing authority has sent you photos which they claim show the 'proof' you contravened if you considered they didn't then you should have appealled not offered to pay. If the PCN stated how to pay then those methods should have been used, emailing credit card details if not on the PCN as method of payment may not be considered as 'paid'.

[jfish]

JFish,

 

Are you in London?

 

DD

 

 

Yes. Why?

[jfish]

The PCN should have stated that you have a right to view the CCTV evidence and/or appeal if you don't consider the vehicle had carried out the contravention.

 

It did not state my rights to view the evidence at all.

 

The only thing it said was: "The alleged contarvention was detected by an enforcement camera and has been recorded on a video tape or DVD".

 

 

 

The PCN should clearly explain that you either pay or dispute the PCN, the issuing authority has sent you photos which they claim show the 'proof' you contravened if you considered they didn't then you should have appealled not offered to pay.

 

I appealed, but because I was not sure whether I have the right to ask for further proof, and I did not want the penalty charge to go up, so I also gave my credit card details on condition that they send me proof.

 

 

 

If the PCN stated how to pay then those methods should have been used, emailing credit card details if not on the PCN as method of payment may not be considered as 'paid'.

 

I didn't email the c/c details. I filled them out on the form at the bottom of the PCN and posted it back to them - together with my representation asking for clear proof.

So I think this is considered 'paid' - all they had to do was to send me proof and charge my c/c, but they failed to do that.

[jfish]

I think the answer to posting pictures is 'photobucket' (Google it) or some other provider, it would be great to have a clear answer as a Sticky, lots of people ask this.

 

Thanks!

 

Here are the photos that were attched to the original PCN:

 

 

And when I requested clearer proof they sent me the same plus one additional boring photo:

 

Can anyone here please tell me if they see on any of these photos that my car was "failing to drive in the direction shown by the arrow on a blue sign" ???

 

Did I (and do I still) have the right to demand for clearer proof before paying??? Or am I supposed to accept and believe them on their word?

[Conniff]

I take it that is you coming from the left and turning left.

Only you will know, is there a sign saying you have to go straight on ??

[jfish]

I take it that is you coming from the left and turning left.

 

You mean to say: "coming from the left and turning right"?

Yes it's my car, although I wasn't driving it at the time.

But I cannot see on any of the photos the car is actually "turning", only slightly moved over to the right.

 

Only you will know, is there a sign saying you have to go straight on ??

 

I don't know. It will take me an hour to visit that area to try to find out. Should I do this?

[Conniff]

So it's not that you came from that junction and turned left, it is that while driving up that road you turned right - is that correct?

[jfish]

OK you may be right.

I was under the impression till now that they were claiming I turned right.

But now I read their letter again and it says as follows:

 

"Your vehicle was observed failing to travel in the direction shown by the arrow on the blue sign in xxx Road / xxx Road on 00 August 2008 at 00:00.

 

Please note that the blue signs at this location instruct road users to travel straight ahead only.

 

On this occasion, your vehicle was observed by a CCTV Traffic Enforcement Camera turning left which is not permitted at any time."

 

But still I think the photos provided do not give CLEAR proof that the car was turning left, so that I could approach the driver to reimburse the costs. I think I had the right to ask for clearer evidence before making payment. Please advise if I'm wrong.

 

_________

 

I must say I'm really amazed of the amount of kind people that are out here to help others!!! This is a fabulous community. Please keep it up! Many many thanks.

[Conniff]

If you were to see the actual moving film I think that would be proof enough and if you were to dispute it, the whole sequence would be pulled up for all to see.

 

Your nose sticking out from the left hand junction and then you going up the road is enough to prove in pictures that the contravention did take place.

 

Get onto whoever you loaned your car to, to reimburse you. You can always say you will report him/her as the driver if they don't.

 

You could, of course, always go and have a look at the signs to make sure they are clear. Take a camera if you do just in case there are no signs.

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi JFish,

 

If that is your car emerging from the left and it turned left, then the photo they need to provide is one showing straight across the road from the direction your car was coming from. Sending a photo showing road signs which don't relate to the direction from which your car was travelling isn't proof that there was a blue arrow saying the driver had to go straight on if he was coming along that road.

 

It may be a nuisance to have to drive over and check but I would do it. If there is a sign and the driver ignored it you can ask him to pay the charge, but I don't how you will handle the increased payments.

 

I have sent you a pm which may help, but I think you need to go and take your own photos to prove the situation one way or another.

 

DD

[jfish]

If you were to see the actual moving film I think that would be proof enough and if you were to dispute it, the whole sequence would be pulled up for all to see.

 

Your nose sticking out from the left hand junction and then you going up the road is enough to prove in pictures that the contravention did take place.

 

Get onto whoever you loaned your car to, to reimburse you. You can always say you will report him/her as the driver if they don't.

 

You could, of course, always go and have a look at the signs to make sure they are clear. Take a camera if you do just in case there are no signs.

 

So does this mean:

1) They provided enough proof?

2) I had no right to demand further proof before making payment?

 

3) If so, then why did they not take payment from my c/c?

4) And is it my fault that they didn't take payment?

[green_and_mean]

The PCN does not have to show proof of the contravention and obviously cannot show a moving traffic contravention with a still photo. The Council does not have to provide any proof to you other than to allow you to see the original tape. If you contest it they will provide witness statements, traffic orders and cctv to back up the PCN. You cannot just keep asking for more proof you either appeal or pay. You need to make your mind up what you are doing you have confused me so its not surprising the Council do not know your intentions. If you wish to pay explain that you never intended to appeal and ask them to except your first offer. The reason they have not accepted your payment is because when you first sent it you filled out the form stating they should NOT take payment without proof being sent.

[adamna]

I can't see that it's proof without a picture of the sign. As you were not the driver this is all the more important. And you did tell them that you weren't the driver didn't you?

[jfish]

I can't see that it's proof without a picture of the sign.

 

Good point.

 

And you did tell them that you weren't the driver didn't you?

 

Yes I did tell them. And that was the reason for asking for clearer proof.

 

-------------

 

So what do you all suggest I do now???

[jfish]

The Council does not have to provide any proof to you other than to allow you to see the original tape.

 

But they never ever gave me the chance to see this!!!

 

 

 

You cannot just keep asking for more proof you either appeal or pay. You need to make your mind up what you are doing you have confused me so its not surprising the Council do not know your intentions.

 

Why is this confusing?

My intentions are to pay - but only IF I DID THE SAID OFFENCE.

Have I got no right to ask for proof before allowing them to take payment?

 

 

 

If you wish to pay explain that you never intended to appeal and ask them to except your first offer.

 

How & where should I explain this. Should I write them a letter now? or wait to explain this in court?

 

And why should I pay without them giving me proper proof which I can use to get the payment back from the driver?

 

 

 

The reason they have not accepted your payment is because when you first sent it you filled out the form stating they should NOT take payment without proof being sent.

 

So? They had the choice to send proof AND collect payment!

It was their decision not do either of them.

Is this really considered as if it was not paid in time?

Edited February 8, 2009 by jfish

[green_and_mean]

But they never ever gave me the chance yo see this!!!

 

Why is this confusing?

My intentions are to pay - but only IF I DID THE SAID OFFENCE.

Have I got no right to ask for proof before allowing them to take payment?

 

So? They had the choice to send proof AND collect payment!

It was their decision not do either of them.

Is this really considered as if it was not paid in time?

 

You do not seem to have grasped any of my posts! They do NOT have to send you proof, if you are not convinced the photos are proof enough you have the right to appeal. If you draw a comparison with the criminal system what you are doing is like refusing to go to Court unless they sent you proof you were guilty. You have to ask to see the video if you didn't ask how would you expect to see it? You cannot just sit back, say you are not convinced the contravention occured and expect the legal process to stop.

The Council are obliged to accept all representations regardless of whether they are relevant, so by writing on the form stating the photos were not enough evidence that had to be considered as a representation which it was and was rejected.

You then got another chance to pay, which is were the problem occured as you tried to email the payment which obviously for security reasons it would not be accepted, you should have paid by the means shown on the PCN.

Leaving the matter until this stage has not helped at all if you had asked for advice at the PCN stage we could have been more helpfull.

 

This may help you understand the process...

 

http://www.parkingandtrafficappeals.gov.uk/movingtraffenforce.htm