Amex 60-second Application Form - 2000

[Desperate Daniella]

Just a quick update on this thread.

 

I asked about securitisation and basically got told it was none of my business. I will write again and say I want a statement from a notary to say it has not been securitised.

 

They are also stating categorically that the Conditions were on the back of the application form - even though with a tight squeeze they could only actually fit two thirds of what were the conditions at the time on the back of the copy of the application form they sent which they are insisting is the agreement. I think the time has now come for me to request a visit to see it for myself.

 

The Default Notice did not give me time to remedy - same as everyone else's: 14 days from the date of their letter, not allowing for postage.

 

I will draft a letter and post it here for any advice you can give me.

 

DD

[pelham9]

Just a few words on the importance of %APR in agreements.

 

Schedule 1 of the 1981 regs of CCA 1974 requires the following to be shown

 

a) the annual rate

 

b) the manner in which the annual rate is to be applied.

 

c) certain circumstances where the %APR must be shown.

 

Now Schedule 1 is nearly always ignored by the banks. Why? - because deficiencies in the above only make the agreement unenforceable if a judge says it is and judges are unlikely to make an agreement unenforceable if the requirements of Scedule 1 are incorrectly shown.

 

Schedule 6 makes certain terms (the prescribed terns ) mandatory and judges cannot (but still sometimes do) make an agreement enforceable if certain things are left out of an agreement.

 

For interest it is - the rate of any interest to be applied. This must be shown accurately.

 

So an annual rate is OK provided this corresponds with a monthly rate if shown.

 

A monthly rate is OK provided this corresponds with a yearly rate if shown

 

An APR is not OK because it is an approximation to the annual rate (to one decimal place).

 

So forget the accuracy of APRs in agreements - in most credit card agreements where there are no charges they do not have to shown at all and it is very unusual for the %APR to be equal to the annual rate.

 

 

NB The APR is NOT the annual rate,.

[castella]

Hi D.D.

When you received your 60 second application form, it would possibly have been a tear off at the bottom of a letter inviting you to apply.

Do you recall this?

Also the 60 second application would possibly have been a folded in three document which was then to be posted back to Amex. Therefore would not include any terms & conditions-do you recall this.

Also when you received your card -this document would be possibly the first document which had your credit limit on (which would be on the front along with the include credit card) and on the back would have been your terms & conditions-- do you still have this document somewhere? do you recall it at all?

Just thoughts for you

Regards Castella

[Desperate Daniella]

Thank you, Pelham. I haven't gone into that side of things yet as I am still arguing about the back of the agreement and securitisation, and I haven't even told them yet that their DN is faulty, so will do the sums soon. I have finally got a scanner so when I work it out I will scan up the document.

 

Castella,

 

The form was 2/3 A4 in its entirety. I cannot remember where it came from but it definitely wasn't a tear-off. The argument is what is on the back. I am going to ask for sight of the document.

 

I don't recall any document or any terms and conditions coming with the card. I am a hoarder so I suppose it could be in the attic somewhere, but I haven't found it yet. In any case if the T&Cs were in a separate document that doesn't comply with the regulations of CCA 1974 - House of Lords' Authority on that, and a judge upheld the same thing in the Court case in Yorkshire which you've probably read about.

 

DD

[castella]

Hi

The one I received a little earlier than yours, was a tear off slip at the bottom of the invitation letter--there were no terms and conditions on the back. The first terms & conditions sent as such were with the gold card approx 10 days later.

I still have the original of that, and also the terms & conditions on the further gold card that Amex sent a couple of years later. (I am also a horder)

Just trying to help you in any way I can --as we are in similar positions with amex possibly.

They have put in a claim which includes a sixty second application form which they purport to be the agreement along with terms and conditions which appear to be from much later.Plus the usual default notice which only gives 14 days from the date of the letter.

Keep your spirits up

Regards castella

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi Castella,

 

It's clear from the copy of my application form that it almost certainly really was 2/3 A4. There is no sign of any tear off at top or bottom. It already had my name and address filled in so it must have been sent to me. The T&Cs they are saying were on the back don't fit. They are also only 2/3 of the T&Cs they were sending out on a separate document at the time.

 

You keep your spirits up too.

 

DD

[dp77]

Hi DD, I have exactly the same situation as you. A sixty second application form, with a very suspicious looking set of T & C's photocopied onto the reverse.

 

I am involved in court action, which they have recently brought against me. I am insisting on seeing the original, but nothing yet and frankly I doubt it exists. My feeling is that they will say the original has been destroyed but the cut'n'paste job they sent me is an exact copy.

 

Where did you get with your efforts?

[castella]

Hi DD Hi dp77--

The terms &conditions on the rear of the sixty second application-do you have your original copy of your agreement as sent with your first amex card-if you do have it, look at ponts 7 & 8 and 12on their conditions and on your actual agreement as sent--also does their 60second application on the back under terms& conditions have any cancellation rights--if its a true copy of the actual agreement they would be on there would they not

Have they started a claim against you DD- I'm at the AQ stage, what stage are you at dp? Have either of you sent a cpr 31.14 yet

Regards castella

[dp77]

Hi Castella,

 

They have started a claim, I submitted a CPR 31.14, and they responded by asking for more time "verify the document". I'm just weighing up what sort of defence to file, either a holding one, or a fuller one.

 

I don't have my original agreement, it was processed in 2001. However the T&C they photocopied onto the back of my application form have no right to cancel.

 

I will respond in more detail later, there is an interesting twist, but I have to take my dog to puppy training now

[castella]

hi dp77

Remember what BRW has said about Amex---you cannot trust them --you ought possibly to file as full a defence as possible with a note to the court that once you have received a response to the cpr 31.14 requests to be permitted to amend the defence in due course--that is only my thoughts & opinion no one elses, as you have in my opinion 'to cover all the bases' and try to leave no stone unturned with them. There are some excellent defences on the site as such, many from PT -purely my thoughts for what they are worth, & I have no legal background as such. Just common sense

Can you recall when you signed your original application many years ago was there any conditions on the back, or where you to fold the application form up and seal the edges down and send it back to them.

I have the original invitation letter as sent with the sixty second application, a letter of acceptance from amex of the application and the actual copy agreement as sent with the card.

Be carefull how much time they take to respond to the CPR 31.14 as regards (here's one I pre- - red ear - ier) which I leave to everyone's imagination.(purely my thoughts only)

How is the default notice they sent you is it compliant or does it state 14 calendar days from the date of this default notice? Have you had a notice of cancellation from Amex?

A further thought ref your defence-you could always write a reply to amex or their solicitors saying that you request them to agree to give you 14 days to file your defence after receiving their responses to your cpr 31.14 .

Regards Castella

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi dp77 and Castella,

 

I've been out on the road all day but will get the stuff out later or first thing tomorrow.

 

The DN will definitely be wrong. They all are, and Amex won't change them because to do so would admit them are in the wrong.

 

dp77, have you asked if the account was securitised?

 

There is another thread here with exactly the same form as I had for 2000, and there will be for 2001.

 

It's clear from my comparison with the other poster and the T&Cs they posted him that they could not have all been on the back.

 

I have twice asked them to visit my agreement which they have told me is a true copy, but they ignored it. I got a letter from a DCA but sent them a copy of my letter to Amex and didn't hear anything back.

 

As Amex said it was their final response I must get on with my FOS complaint.

 

BRW is absolutely right. You can't trust them. As you'll see from my early posts what they said was on the back just couldn't have been and they only went up to 18 or 19 T&Cs when they were currently using about 27!

 

Will check it again and come back to you.

 

DD

[Desperate Daniella]

Also, the very photocopying of my agreement was dodgy. Page 1 starting at the top, and the apparent Page 2 placed a third of the way down the page. Almost the same size and if you didn't look carefully and measure they could hope to get away with it.

[dp77]

I intend to file a holding defence, reserving the right to submit a full defence once I see this document they claim to have. Who is PT, one of the posters on site? I will search for his defences, thanks for the tip.

 

I am certain the form I filled in had nothing on the back, although it was 8 years ago. In response to a SAR I got a copy of my original application, with some more recent T&C's photocopied onto the reverse. Those T&C's were not on the original, and there is no way they will produce that original in court, they are going to claim it has been destroyed and what they have presented is a micro file copy. We will see if they can convince the Judge of that, even then the document is not properly executed, it has no signature from Amex and it has no right to cancel.

 

I never received a default notice, and although I intend to bring that up in defence, and put them to strict proof they issued one in the correct format I think the key issue is the original agreement. Judges have found for the defendant in cases where the original cannot be produced, I don't know if the same can be said for an improperly served Default Notice. I have a pretty good proof that the T&C's on the copy they cut'n'pasted together were not on the original.

 

Re the CPR 31.14; Amex have already said they will allow me a further 14 days from when they provide the document, but as I say I intend to file a holding defence anyway.

[dp77]

Desperate Daniella; I will scan in and post this evening the T&C's that mysteriously appeared on the back on my application. I would be very interested to hear how they compare to what you received. My photocopied list of T&C's also has 18 itemised points, which sounds very similar to what you described, I'm wondering if we got the same T&C's?

 

I'm used to the Amex section of the forum, where there are one or two posts a day, this section is absolutely crazy, hundreds of posts every day, it seems everyone needs advice and I had no idea this many people were in trouble.

 

Castella; I think by PT you mean pt2537? You mentioned that he had posted some esxcellent defences, which I would very much like to read. I checked the threads pt2537 started, but there are quite a few! Do you have a link to any of his suggested defences, or can you remember which threads they were in?

[dp77]

Desperate Daniella; I have found another poster who appears to have the same T&C's as us; I don't know if you have seen this thread;

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/200454-amex-cca-received-enforceable.html#post2181276

 

The original poster has a slightly different front page to us, i.e. an application form although not the 60 second one, but the OP was sent the same T&C's that we appear to have, which Amex claim was the reverse page.

 

The point in that thread that concerns is the statement; "agreement is enforceable as I am sure a court would rule that the two pages are opposite sides of the same docuement. It has everything needed to be enforceable - signaure, prescribed terms, cancellation rights"

 

That comment was made by someone with 13,000 posts, so I assume they know what they are talking about.

[Desperate Daniella]

So sorry, dp77, the last day or so has been really frantic. Will get everything out tomorrow.

 

DDxx

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi dp77,

 

I've gone to the thread and can't open the Amex pdf showing the agreement. Apparently it's damaged. Did you manange to open it?

 

What they have said was on the back of my application clearly can't have been there.

 

Will just check a couple of things on other threads and come back to you.

 

DD

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi,

 

It's Elgrand's thread Is this Amex application enforeceable post 90. That leaflet has almost the same conditions I had - there's just one tiny difference, but the point is that they could only get part of them on the back of a piece of paper (the application form) which is 2/3 of A4. They have not sent me the leaflet because I've already told them that the T&Cs cannot be on a separate piece of paper, so they have to stick to their original line that they were on the back. Of course they didn't reply at all to my request to visit them to see my agreement.

 

Quiet at the moment, but if I hear anything more from anyone I'll start the FOS complaint.

[castella]

hi dp77 &DD

dp 77 items to consider ref suggestions for defence are:

Post 24 stayingcalm vs abbey with no cca & won

Hhalifax

[castella]

Hi dp 77 sorry ref post 69 -more defences to consider

Halifax Platinum CCA POST 86 9from steven 4064-

How to Defend a Loan post 32 Jools 63

County Court Summons -can I defend it post 39 Stephen7

Court papers received re: HFC post 68

[castella]

dp77 holding defence to consider from scabhunter post 44

RE:court papers and filing a defence - help please

Also a good site to read through is:

Zhanzibar vs Amex/AIC/Newman/Brachers Solicitors

and also

Surface agent x20-Tale of a dodgy default notice. (just surface agentx20 reasoning on this site) (no offence meant to anyone else who has posted on that site).

and also peterbard Re: Agreement Enforceability post 26

 

All those should be of interest to you -hope they help

Regards castella

[Desperate Daniella]

Thank you, Castella.

 

I'll have a look at those too.

 

DD

[castella]

hi DD - hi dp77

would you believe it -amex have sent a further default notice after termination in an attempt to rectify some of the mistakes in the original default notice which I stated in the defence

The original default notice was issued in autumn 2007 with a termination notice being issued some two weeks plus later in 2007.

This new default notice is dated oct 2009.Issued nearly two years post termination.

anyone got any thoughts on this

regards castella

[dp77]

Thanks for all your help. I have just sent off my embarrassed defence, and will now wait to see what the claimant come up with in response. Meanwhile I am going to devote some time to working out when the T&C's that were photocopied onto the back of my 2001 application were actually printed.

 

Castella; I am certainly no expert but it seems Amex are bending every possible rule in order to enforce claims. The tactics used by them, or their representatives - sending court papers to old addresses, making up twin sided agreements which were originally one sided, denying all access to any original documentation, to name a few - suggest they are desperate for cash and will resort to whatever they feel will bully people into paying. Or indeed whatever will bully some courts into siding with them.

 

It seems common knowledge that Amex default notices did not conform to statutory requirements, perhaps you are among the first to experience a belated attempt by Amex to rectify this? I wish I had the legal expertise to offer more constructive advice but sending out a DN two years late sounds highly dubious. Someone with more experience will have to answer on whether it is 'legal'.

 

Meanwhile if I find anything that will help I will let you know.

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi Castella,

 

Are they trying to change the dates to imply they gave you enough time?

 

Is it on your thread?

 

DD