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why you shouldnt use section 77/78 CCA 1974 if you want the signed agreement


pt2537
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routinely hiding behind disposable company fronts

 

I must admit, I'd not seen this. I would have thought it would be too much hassle - surely they'd need a separate consumer credit licence for each one? Do you have any examples?

 

Personally, I think the disclosure approach has merits in some situations but the ineffible nature of the courts cannot be discounted. A weird surprise is always around the corner.

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I must admit, I'd not seen this. I would have thought it would be too much hassle - surely they'd need a separate consumer credit licence for each one? Do you have any examples?

 

Personally, I think the disclosure approach has merits in some situations but the ineffible nature of the courts cannot be discounted. A weird surprise is always around the corner.

 

They can do all sort of things especially as they have access to the banks legal teams e.g.RMA Risk Management Associates, look at the registered address, 'NCO Europe ltd trading as RMA...

Part of the NCO group of companies'.

Looks like people hiding behind fronts to me.

Plus it costs them £350 to get refered to the OFT how much is the mean defaulting balance.

Judging by the reactions and past experiences of people on this site it is worth the risk.

Quite often the first attempt to intimidate customers into paying is successful, once an agreement has been registered with the court they have the customer body and soul, before they are aware of their rights and obliged to pay all the unfair interest and charges added to the court recognised agreement.

Personally I think the licence holder should be a specific person who has to be identified by name and address on all the licence holders stationary - fat chance.

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I was told this afternoon by Next that they do not have a signed CCA because I never returned one to them when I opened the account. My forgetfullness will hopefully come in handy for once :D

 

BUT they are sending me a template letter, he says this is what I would have received!

 

Shall I follow the instructions in THIS thread or should I demand a CCA via the 'N' letter on Bankfodders thread?

 

I really want the default removed, it's a big one affecting me in a big way.

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If Next have admitted they have no signed CCA, cadencealex, there is no point in sending them letter N. You are now in a strong position regarding the non-enforceability of the debt but the matter of a default removal is more difficult as I think Bankfodder has pointed out before.

 

You could start by asking them nicely to remove the defaults as in the absence of a signed CCA, they had no rights to place them & see where you get from there. You might hit lucky, otherwise it could be a long road with no guaranteed success at the end.

  • Haha 1

Any knowledge I possess or advice I proffer is based solely on my experiences in the University of Life. Please make your own assessment of legality, risks & costs before taking any action.

 

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If Next have admitted they have no signed CCA, cadencealex, there is no point in sending them letter N. You are now in a strong position regarding the non-enforceability of the debt but the matter of a default removal is more difficult as I think Bankfodder has pointed out before.

 

You could start by asking them nicely to remove the defaults as in the absence of a signed CCA, they had no rights to place them & see where you get from there. You might hit lucky, otherwise it could be a long road with no guaranteed success at the end.

 

 

I am happy to pay the debt, I will pay every month.. I just want the default removed from my account :(

 

How can they place defaults though if there is no signed agreement?

 

What reasons does Bankfodder give for them not removing the defaults?

 

MAny thanks for your reply foolish girl :)

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Re. removal of the defaults, there is OFT opinion that you may like to quote in support of your case & you may find the info. provided on this thread useful particularly post 57:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/125119-ccas-post-april-2007-a-3.html

 

And this thread of car's has invaluable info on it:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/111211-defaults-background-removal-methods.html

 

However if you want more detailed help on this subject, I suggest you start a new thread.

Edited by foolishgirl
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Any knowledge I possess or advice I proffer is based solely on my experiences in the University of Life. Please make your own assessment of legality, risks & costs before taking any action.

 

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Not aware the oft charges a fee. they don't get involved in individual complaints so why would they?

 

I only asked because there seems to be a fair bit of work involved (and cost) to get a licence so I would be surprised if companies were repeatedly setting up a number of different companies.

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Ragtaggeorge:

 

....If they have a valid agreement or do not they will not want you to have a copy. It is cheaper to intimidate you into paying than take you to court. If they have something like the front part of a microfiche agreement that might or might not be enforceable by a court, they might try it on for size with you, as again it is cheaper than court ...

 

SD:

I know what you are saying here and in the rest of your post and agree that you cannot trust creditors/DCA's as far as you can throw them, but I don't think in the vast majority of cases they are motivated [or bright] enough for a great deal of subterfuge. I reckon in most cases if a valid CCA is available they will produce it, if only for the immediate satisfaction of shutting you up.

 

Like you said in the rest of your post, a disputed account stops them from applying interest/charges/repayment demands, so what's the point in messing around, particularly as they don't want the expense of going to court anyway?

 

The production of a valid, executed agreement puts them completely in charge again and saves for a lot of hassle. If they have it, I reckon they'd sock you right back with it.

 

If you don't get it within the first few weeks of requesting it, then I think it's pretty safe to assume it doesn't , like I said, in the vast majority of cases, exist :)

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Quick question... MBNA have not replied to my CCA request under section 78 within the allotted time. If I want to get it from them using the CPR part 31.16 method as posted here do I then HAVE TO take them to court? Or can I just get the copy from them and decide what my next step is?

 

31.16 is to determine if it is worth taking them to court, it should get you the info to make an educated choice.......they need to supply the agreements and docs asked for, if they dont you can make it official and force their hand. AT NO POINT ARE YOU FORCED INTO TAKING ACTION...(I think)

 

the whole point of that reg is to try to AVOID court action and settle it amongst yourselves.

 

Dave

** We would not seek a battle as we are, yet as we are, we say we will not shun it. (Henry V) **

 

see you stand like greyhounds in the slips,

Straining upon the start. The game's afoot:

Follow your spirit; and, upon this charge

Cry 'God for Harry! England and Saint George!'

:D If you think I have helped, informed, or amused you do the clickey scaley thing !! :D

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Ragtaggeorge:

 

....If they have a valid agreement or do not they will not want you to have a copy. It is cheaper to intimidate you into paying than take you to court. If they have something like the front part of a microfiche agreement that might or might not be enforceable by a court, they might try it on for size with you, as again it is cheaper than court ...

 

SD:

I know what you are saying here and in the rest of your post and agree that you cannot trust creditors/DCA's as far as you can throw them, but I don't think in the vast majority of cases they are motivated [or bright] enough for a great deal of subterfuge. I reckon in most cases if a valid CCA is available they will produce it, if only for the immediate satisfaction of shutting you up.

 

Like you said in the rest of your post, a disputed account stops them from applying interest/charges/repayment demands, so what's the point in messing around, particularly as they don't want the expense of going to court anyway?

 

The production of a valid, executed agreement puts them completely in charge again and saves for a lot of hassle. If they have it, I reckon they'd sock you right back with it.

 

If you don't get it within the first few weeks of requesting it, then I think it's pretty safe to assume it doesn't , like I said, in the vast majority of cases, exist :)

 

 

Perhaps you are right and they are not up to the job of proper strategic thinking.

They do seem to be rather good at getting legislation passed like The Consumer Credit Act 1974 (Electronic Communications) Order 2004, which opens the field for them to make up agreements on the fly, that might suggest different.

The correct strategic move is to deny the enemy access to documents as above.

Simply put this allows doubt and so fear into the camp and increase the effectiveness of terror tactics before any full frontal engagement

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Not so,

 

Part 31.16 allows you to seek disclosure of documents which support your case full stop!!

PT2537 -

 

Firstly, just wanted to thank you for creating this thread. You are incredibly knowledgeable about these issues and have been extremely helpful.

 

I was hoping you could clarify 2 points for me:

 

1. Can a credit card / loan company register adverse credit information about you with Experian/Equifax without a signed agreement?

 

2. Can a credit card / loan company begin proceedings in court against you without producing a copy of a signed agreement in their intial petition to the court?

 

Thank you so much in advance for your assistance :)

 

Mrs B

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In answer to your questions NO & NO however they will process your data & they will take you to court:mad:

 

In my two court cases currently on the go they are yet to provide me with a copy of my cca.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/175566-upto-eyeballs-cl-finance.html

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/176523-upto-eyeballs-hsbc-no.html

Lowell Financial (Monument) No CCA - File Closed ** WON**:D

1st Credit (Citi Financial) No CCA - Credit Report Marked 'Satisfied' ** WON **:D

American Express No CCA - Pending

RBS Mint No CCA - Pending

CL Finance (Morgan Stanley) No CCA - In Court:eek:

HSBC - No CCA - In Court:eek:

Link Financial (MBNA) No CCA - Pending

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Hi Mrs B

 

I'm sure I'll get corrected if this isn't right, but from trawling the forum this is what I've gleaned:

 

1) They shouldn't, but that doesn't stop them. It is apparently technically possible to get defaults removed due to an unenforceable/non-existent agreement, but the general concesus (sp?) seems to be it's a long road to get there with no guarantee of success.

 

2) Again they shouldn't, but they do. However, it does appear that although they like to go through the motions, actually ending up in a court room without an agreement doesn't happen too often. Plus, with the help you can get on here you really lessen the chances of it going pear shaped!

 

HTH

 

Lexis:)

Time flies like an arrow...

Fruit flies like a banana.

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PT2537 -

 

Firstly, just wanted to thank you for creating this thread. You are incredibly knowledgeable about these issues and have been extremely helpful.

 

I was hoping you could clarify 2 points for me:

 

1. Can a credit card / loan company register adverse credit information about you with Experian/Equifax without a signed agreement?

 

2. Can a credit card / loan company begin proceedings in court against you without producing a copy of a signed agreement in their intial petition to the court?

 

Thank you so much in advance for your assistance :)

 

Mrs B

I think the answer to your first question is Yes they can,there is nothing to actually stop this, however we have to ask is it lawful and is it likely to cause you damage to your credit reputation by doing so. there is a very good case on damage to credit reputation called Durkin v HFC Bank and Dsg retail

 

in answer to the second question , again yes, infact i could launch proceedings against you for a million pounds, without you owing me a penny, although the claim would be a farce and would be struck out.

 

the key thing is , if they are not in compliance with their obligations under s78 as set out within para 16 of Rankine vs Amex, the correct procedure is to seek an injunction stopping the creditor from bringing proceedings or idf proceeedings are already started then you can seek a stay until they are in compliance

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Paul, sorry to but in on your thread but i am desperate for help. No-one seems able to advise me on this one. My last page link is

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/158086-cl-finance-not-playing-4.html

 

I would much appreciate some advise.

 

Thank you

Welcome Finance PPI ***WON***£650

 

Black Horse PPI ***WON*** £1200

 

CL Finance-County Court Claim-***WON***(well sort of-stopped them continuing with the claims)

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Paul, sorry to but in on your thread but i am desperate for help. No-one seems able to advise me on this one. My last page link is

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/158086-cl-finance-not-playing-4.html

 

I would much appreciate some advise.

 

Thank you

I have replied on your thread Chris

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I think the answer to your first question is Yes they can,there is nothing to actually stop this, however we have to ask is it lawful and is it likely to cause you damage to your credit reputation by doing so. there is a very good case on damage to credit reputation called Durkin v HFC Bank and Dsg retail

 

in answer to the second question , again yes, infact i could launch proceedings against you for a million pounds, without you owing me a penny, although the claim would be a farce and would be struck out.

 

the key thing is , if they are not in compliance with their obligations under s78 as set out within para 16 of Rankine vs Amex, the correct procedure is to seek an injunction stopping the creditor from bringing proceedings or idf proceeedings are already started then you can seek a stay until they are in compliance

Thanks to everyone for their quick response. I really appreciate your help.

 

So I am clear on the issues with the Adverse credit information being reported, we will have to threaten them with action if they propose to do such a thing and quote the case you mentioned PT.

 

Regarding the issue of court proceedings - when would the lender have to show the agreement if they chose to take you to court?

 

Thanks again for all the help :)

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In reply to previous post. The FOS charge £450 upon the 4th complaint within a 12 month period:

http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/technical_notes/QG1.pdf

 

 

Also, i would be interested to know PTs opinion of CCA replies that do not contain signatures (but a tick in a box) and their legal standing. Such as:

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t42/davey77_2007/MBNA4.jpg

:!: -Any advise I give is based purely on my own experience. It should not be solely relied upon as I am NOT a legal expert and any major decisions you make should not be based on my opinion alone -

HFC Bank - Davey vs HFC

Barclays - Monthly payments made

Cahoot - Agreement received, awaiting 2nd agreement after DCA.

MBNA1&2 - Agreements received. (Currently in limbo)

Halifax - Davey vs Halifax/Cabot

MINT - Davey vs Mint

Amex - Davey vs Amex

Cap1 **WON** £1,500 Written Off Davey vs Cap1

 

Never Sign Anything

 

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Sorry to hijack but i received the exact same form with a tick box yesterday so i will follow this with great interest

If you feel I have helped please tickle my scales;)

 

 

MBNA - Ongoing

Egg Loan - Ongoing

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