why you shouldnt use section 77/78 CCA 1974 if you want the signed agreement

[mikek]

Update:

 

I used the standard letters in this forum for three major high street banks + a request for the signed agreement under the Data Protection Act.

 

All three of them have now given me copies of the signed agreements and they are (as expected) defective as the prescribed terms are nowhere and illegible. No wonder why they were hiding behind the copy regulations.

 

In other words, this works if you need a copy of your signed agreement.

[davey77]

I should think everyone needs a copy of their signed agreement!

[pt2537]

Update:

 

I used the standard letters in this forum for three major high street banks + a request for the signed agreement under the Data Protection Act.

 

All three of them have now given me copies of the signed agreements and they are (as expected) defective as the prescribed terms are nowhere and illegible. No wonder why they were hiding behind the copy regulations.

 

In other words, this works if you need a copy of your signed agreement.

Hi Mikek

 

Thats great news, Lenders know that you will be entitled to this information if you went to court and they know that they have to provide it in an 31.16 application

 

Im glad you got what you need

 

Regards

 

Paul

[davey77]

That still leaves the accounts out there though and of course they will still try to get their money (as they see it). I suppose then to bring it to a conclusion the only method thereafter is the N1 route?

[mikek]

I have now consulted with a number of legal firms. I cross referenced their comments. They all agree I have good cases as there are serious flaws in the true copies they hold.

 

It is now the case of deciding who to allocate my cases to on a no win no fee basis for declaration of unenforceability.

[foolishgirl]

It is now the case of deciding who to allocate my cases to on a no win no fee basis for declaration of unenforceability.

 

You can do this for yourself mikek & it will cost you nothing save your time.

[davefirewalker]

You can do this for yourself mikek & it will cost you nothing save your time.

 

I agree....why pay someone between £200-£500 to do something you can do yourself easilly

 

think about it....no win no fee....hmmmm if they win and you get you debt written off. you still end up paying them

 

Dave

[pt2537]

I agree....why pay someone between £200-£500 to do something you can do yourself easilly

 

Dave

of course you could find a solicitor who will run the case on a CFA thus costing you nowt and costing the other side a huge legal bill plus a CFA provides for a success fee, thus costing the other side a Sh!te load more

[pt2537]

I agree....why pay someone between £200-£500 to do something you can do yourself easilly

 

think about it....no win no fee....hmmmm if they win and you get you debt written off. you still end up paying them

 

Dave

Incorrect Dave

 

No Win No Fee is a Conditional Fee Agreement. the lawyer will recover costs from the other side

[davefirewalker]

Incorrect Dave

 

No Win No Fee is a Conditional Fee Agreement. the lawyer will recover costs from the other side

 

Hi Paul ...

 

the no win no fee might not be a CFA......they might just ask you to pay their fee yourself if they win. I suppose it depends on the agreement that you have with them. MOST want the fee upfront though

 

rgds

dave

[pt2537]

sorry Dave, you are incorrect

 

The Law Society - Paying for legal services

 

Apart from family or criminal matters, many types of claim are suitable for a Conditional Fee Agreement, commonly known as 'no win, nofee'.

 

The Conditional Fee Agreements Regulations 2000 (No. 692) - Statute Law Database

[davefirewalker]

You may well be right (again)....I was just going off the blurbs I have seen on the front of these sort of advertisers....usualy it says something like "one off fee" and usually its about £500....not thta I have looked too deeply as we know what a rip off they are...which is the point I was initially trying to get accross.

 

rgds

 

Dave

[tmjlad]

Hi All

 

I'm a newbie on this forum and I've been reading this thread and it's really interesting indeed. I'm sure the information I've learnt from here would be greatly useful for me at some point.

 

However, I do have a burning (or somewhat stupid) question? Sorry I did try to put a search on it but there were far too many results being returned and it might take me days if nto weeks to trawl through all of them to find the answer.

 

My question is...what exact is defined as a "defective agreement"? What does it mean in layman terms? I understand that a defective agreement could allow you to seek a court order to declare it unenforceable.

 

I hope to hear from you all. Many thanks in advance.

 

tmjlad

[davefirewalker]

Basically put an enforceable agreement should have

 

amount of credit or credit limit (or how it will arrived at) or whether there is no limit

 

Rate of interest

 

repayment schedule

 

YOUR SIGNATURE

 

without all of these the agreement is unenforceable

 

see here...>http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/162851-consumer-credit-agreements.html

 

Dave

Edited January 12, 2009 by davefirewalker

[Kraken1]

the one-off fee might be for an insurance policy to cover costs.

[pt2537]

the one-off fee might be for an insurance policy to cover costs.

yes it could be, many law firms use ATE insurance to protect the client from costs in the event it all goes wrong

[tmjlad]

Thanks Dave.

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi Mikek,

 

You mentioned that three high street banks have come up with defective agreements. Was one Barclays? (Sorry if I have missed a post somewhere.)

 

DD

[mikek]

Yes one of them was BC. A friend of mine also got his and has the same problems. BC seem to have put applications prior to 2004 in micrifiche which destroyed the legibility.

 

Also there were other serious problems, the prescribed terms were not in the document.

[Ragtaggeorge]

Thanks Mikek

Your info might explain why none of my BC CCAs have produced anything at all since submitted at the begining of November.

Just received a Loan agreement copy from Abbey 2000 that seems to have had the same treatment, the small print is completly missing in places and no back of the agreement.

[Desperate Daniella]

Thanks Mikek,

 

I applied at the beginning of November too, and obviously haven't got my CCA. Last time Calders called they said it was my fault as I had sent the second request to the wrong address (as though the BC offices in NN4 have no internal postal system!) and I had to write again. My first response was just he current T & Cs and I wrote back to the woman who had sent them at that address, but it should have been 1234 Pavilion Drive according to Calders and this is why they hadn't sent it. Yeah.

 

They also helped themselves to a payment from my current account on the day my child allowance came in. I hadn't even paid the mortgage and they told me I had disposable income. I have just reported them to FOS, and their own complaints office, and told the woman there I was waiting for the agreement and I considered their action "spiteful". The guy at FOS was pretty appalled too.

 

I think we need to watch this setting off. If they know they have no enforceable agreements they are going to grab what they can by whatever means they can.

 

Glad they have been caught out here.

 

DD

[joneseyblod]

Could the Civil Procedure Rules part 31.16 be used in a situation with a bank account with overdraft on?

 

I.e. where they dont supply anything under a 77/78 request as they advise it is exempt.

 

And a SAR request does not provide any type of agreement, letter or anything either.

 

They have defaulted the account yet no default notice was issued, and the SAR also shows no default notice.

 

It has gone out to collections company, but is on hold with them due to advising of a dispute.

 

Have received a letter from the banks legal team re-iterating about it being exempt and collection procedures will be followed, and suggesting take immediate legal advice.

[joneseyblod]

This was an interesting case about overdrafts Coutts v Sebastyen

 

I asked for proof that the bank was using the OFT waiver and under the relevant register, but they did not respond to that.

 

Also if they avail themselves of this waiver, the OFT advised that it was subject to comment above AND

 

) that where there is an agreement between a creditor and a debtor for the granting of credit in the form of an advance on a current account, the debtor shall be informed at the time or before the agreement is concluded:

- of the credit limit, if any,

- of the annual rate of interest and the charges applicable from the time the agreement is concluded and the conditions under which these may be amended,

- of the procedure for terminating the agreement;

and this information shall be confirmed in writing.

If there is NO proof that they have done the latter (s77/78 and SAR request bearing no fruit) and there is a letter confirming there would be no agreements in relation to the current accounts.

Then surely they have breached the determination and cannot use the protection of the waiver??

Therefore they would have to provide a full agreement under s77/78 or the debt could be declared unenforcable through court.

Any thoughts, views on this?

[Muffintop]

the problem as i see it on here is that too often we see users who are sent a blank set of terms and conditions in reply to a cca request,

 

then they start saying that the debt is unenforceable and they aint gonna pay blah blah blah. next thing they know the debt has been sold and the new company pull a properly executed agreement out of the hat but its too late for the OP at that point cos they are being sued

 

my point is that this is only to get the agreement. this thread is not intended to be the first step towards suing your lender but it is intended to assist in getting the correct docs so that people who come here can do so with the docs that we need to identify if the agremeent is enforceable or not

 

Hya Im confused by post 22 and 23.. I have followed threads and advise and read and subscribed to many posts since i requested my ccas, not signed anything and gone along the correct proceedure with letters as advised. Now in my 3rd month of not paying cards as they have been disputed, if they are sold on to a dca I dont understand how the dca can suddenly turn up with the copy of the agreement signed sealed delivered if the original credit card company in my case barclays didnt have it??? They had an obligation to produce it didnt they within the statutory period of time... I also thought that you could only ask the bank to disclose the document prior to the court case as disclosure if a court claim had been lodged by them or me?

[Ragtaggeorge]

Muffintop More reading required I think. Not sure about some peoples logic, this is my take on this question. If they have a valid agreement or do not they will not want you to have a copy. It is cheaper to intimidate you into paying than take you to court. If they have something like the front part of a microfiche agreement that might or might not be enforceable by a court, they might try it on for size with you, as again it is cheaper than court and they might lose at court. According to pts logic they will give you a copy of the agreement if you just have the right piece of law to throw at them... According to my logic they can always say, ~ "one of our minions was digging about in the stock room when would you believe it" and this way keep all options open. The CCAct agreement request failure is just that, produce an enforceable agreement at court and they have complied. Obviously for the period of non- compliance they will not be able to add interest, penalty charges or fees In the meantime if they do not follow all the correct steps to assign the debt and have carried on with enforcement action the judge may rule they have made an otherwise enforceable agreement unenforceable. Stay cool MT, if they produce a valid agreement just pay the amount you have withheld or not, if you are on benefits offer £0.50 a week. In my opinion pt is wrong you will have options even in the worse outcome, the contract works both ways, they can not ask you to pay more than you can afford, if they do let it go to court. pt produces lots of useful posts but he is a lawyer not a practitioner of eck e thump like the DCAs so perhaps he overlooks that they will push the law to its limits routinely hiding behind disposable company fronts, free from the risk of personal prosecution. Hang tough

Edited January 13, 2009 by Ragtaggeorge
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