why you shouldnt use section 77/78 CCA 1974 if you want the signed agreement

[tendogs]

Thanks, again, Pete

[joneseyblod]

Thanks for that skemdosser!!

[The GodMother]

Found this other little gem on same site (for anonymity I have cited the respondents as "Poster number 1" and "Poster number 2".

 

 

 

Poster number 1

 

Does anybody have any comments on the numerous consumer forums that are popping up?

 

In response to letters seeking payment we often receive letters back requesting a copy of a "True signed copy" of a CCA.

 

It didn't take long for the penny to drop, and we realised that apart from the personal details of our clients, the letters were all very similar. Obviously being produced from a letter template of some sort.

 

We even have 2 clients who embelish their stationary with Consumer Action Group (CAG) stickers. I think this is done to make us think that they are part of some powerful organisation or something.

 

We have only been in business for 18 months and are already taking steps to utilise a debt collection agency.

 

What are your thoughts on these forums?

 

 

Poster Number 2

 

Well quite frankly it is your own fault. If you don't like it, issue credit facilities properly. Some companies, beleive it or not, actually do that.

 

Furthermore, you are powerless to stop the consumer forums such as Consumer Action Group. they are NOT breaking the law in ANY way shape or form.

 

Therefore, if you are finding it a struggle to comply with legal requests for CCAs and things, go and work in Asda.

 

 

 

 

....... Had me laughing out loud !!!

 

They removed my posts from that and that was posted by a fellow Cagger who was trying to get them talking.

[joneseyblod]

Hehehehe fantastic

[The GodMother]

Re post 47:

 

Inspection of documents by copying is a modern phenomenon. The historical right to make, to demand even, a physical inspection exists in all its glory. However, the disclosing party is under no obligation to cause the document to be moved from where it is stored to some place to suit the convenience of the inspecting party. If the document is in New Zealand and the inspecting party wishes to makes a physical inspection he will need to book his flight and hotel.

 

x20

 

 

Thanks x20.

 

Could i then ask the company for a meeting with a place that i can inspect the documents or even if they fail to produce them ask them to bring them to court for inspection.

[Ragtaggeorge]

Certainly is, thanks. Does not answer my ? why the 12 +2 I have seen quoted elsewhere. Green to you.

[The GodMother]

oh the 12+2 is for delivery and getting to you the original CCA request.

 

The 2 days is for first class recorded delivery and its 12 working, Monday to friday no includung bank holidays and any days the goverment has given as a bank holiday like christmas day and good friday.

 

does that help or is there something i have missed?

[foolishgirl]

Just setting aside the issue of getting a CCA declared unenforceable for a moment tifo, this is a great way of simply getting the other side to produce the CCA & for lots of CAGers this is their main concern - does a CCA exist or not?

 

We all know that DCAs rely on the 'unknown' to bully, threaten & cajole money out of people under false pretences, people who are intimidated by the thought of a court action brought against them. At the very least, this gives you a chance to examine exactly how strong the other side's case is before either (a) they take court action or (b) you decide to go the S142 route. You certainly wouldn't want to instigate action on the latter unless you were absolutely certain that whatever docs. were produced were enforceable but in the case of non-production of a CCA it would strengthen your hand immensely, either to settle or defend a case.

 

Thank you PT for this valuable resource, albeit it comes with the caveat of 'use with caution'.

[Ragtaggeorge]

Thats got it, thanks.

Been giving them 2 days too long - never more!

[tosh1]

subbing

[citizenB]

Quote:

I dont know about anyone else, but i really am getting fed up with these consumer advice web sites.

 

My company has had so many letters recently informing us of what we can & cannot do.

 

Everything from...not being able to visit debtors homes without prior permission to having to provide credit agreements etc.

 

What can be done about these websites?

 

They are costing us too much money/profit & i know they are having an effect on other debt collection companies as well.

 

The injustice of it all speaks volumes and something needs to be done. I mean to say, people should be free to turn up at other peoples' houses unannounced and late at night, and then demand money without having to provide any evidence of a right to it. Kids do it every year at hallowe'en and no one complains. So why can't grubby debt collectors?

 

x20

 

NIce one, x20. It seems as though I have to spread the clicks around a bit more before giving you another one:lol:

[DMD12577]

Hi again people, im asking very nicely hehe if anyone can advise on my question in post 136 pretty pleeeeease !

[foolishgirl]

Just a quick one, ive not grasped this too well, i read this thread late last night and still a bit sleepy. I currently had letters from cabot financial collecting for halifax credit card, saying that although the original cca is not available here is a copy of it. What they sent was 2 application forms with only my details on clearly headed application form with eg: address,employment,wage etc...then with a number of 8-10 pages long conditions of use for a halifax credit card with a header at the top saying it was a credit agreement and for me to keep as my copy. It has handwritten ref number which is my own credit card number but they have sent 2 copies of this one from a long time ago with the old 25 quid charges and a recent one with the 12 quid charges and my new home address, when i applied in 2003 i was living elsewhere plus my new home address is wrong. My question is after rambling a bit is do i send this CPR cos they state they have sent the info required on 2 separate occasions now and stating that it is a credit agreement and they will probably keep resending the same info saying they are resuming collections and that interest has been accruing whilst the account was on hold?

Whats my next move to this one please advise someone

 

diane

 

You really need to start a seperate thread of your own diane, in the halifax forum & then you are more likely to get advice from those who have experience of this OC. This thread is too long & contains other issues so your query is likely to get lost.

 

But if you could answer the following in your 'new' thread, it could help fill in the background for people.

 

Did you send them a letter after receiving the first applic. form telling them the debt was unenforceable due to no prescibed terms?

 

Did you put the account in dispute after you requested the CCA & all they sent was the applic. forms? If so, unless there is a clause in the CCA or the T&Cs pertaining to it (which seems unlikely as so far they have failed to supply a CCA) they cannot accrue the interest for the period the account was in dispute.

[DMD12577]

Thanks foolishgirl, just to answer you, yeah i did send original request for cca back in august they put account on hold till halifax got back to them which was sometime in the last few weeks, they then sent me the application form and conditions of use, i then sent them a letter stating they had not provided me with the info required and wanted a copy of my agreement, i then received the same letter back with the same application form with a letter saying they had provided me with a cca and wanted me to get in touch with them with a proposed payment plan and that my argument was unfounded.....ill go try get my own thread started and see of someone can help advise me there, sorry if ive butted in, newbie cant ya tell haha

cheers for that though x

[BlueSquirrel]

Re post 47:

 

Inspection of documents by copying is a modern phenomenon. The historical right to make, to demand even, a physical inspection exists in all its glory. However, the disclosing party is under no obligation to cause the document to be moved from where it is stored to some place to suit the convenience of the inspecting party. If the document is in New Zealand and the inspecting party wishes to makes a physical inspection he will need to book his flight and hotel.

 

x20

 

Now all the banks will be setting up storage facilities in Auckland

[BlueSquirrel]

Just a few questions to clarify this for me. If in response to a CCA request a bank send an agreement, do they have to stand by what they said or can they produce a different one down the line. If they say they don't have it, can they produce it later on?

In one case I am dealing with I did a CCA and got a "true copy" reply and when I did an Subject Access Request they said they couldn't find it. If they can't find it how can they be sure the true copy is correct, are they just relying on some notes on the file that that say I was issued with such and such agreement?

And if they can find an application form from the same time, how come no agreement then? Where can I find the definition of relevent filing system and how this affects what they need to supply under Subject Access Request?

And one final thing - what if you have a copy of the agreement and the "true copy" they send is not a copy of that after all....

Thanks everyone who puts their time into this site. You're all fab (although I have a special soft spot for x20)

[foolishgirl]

In one case I am dealing with I did a CCA and got a "true copy" reply and when I did an Subject Access Request they said they couldn't find it. If they can't find it how can they be sure the true copy is correct, are they just relying on some notes on the file that that say I was issued with such and such agreement?

 

That would be 'true' copy but not an 'exact' copy. They might claim that the original copy was kept in files not covered by the DPA, in which case they wouldn't have to provide a copy of it under a SAR. However they would need to produce it in court to prove enforceability.

 

And if they can find an application form from the same time, how come no agreement then? Where can I find the definition of relevent filing system and how this affects what they need to supply under Subject Access Request?

And one final thing - what if you have a copy of the agreement and the "true copy" they send is not a copy of that after all....

 

Ah, well in that case it wouldn't have been a true copy then would it?

Thanks everyone who puts their time into this site. You're all fab (although I have a special soft spot for x20)

 

Oooo....lucky x20 :grin:

 

FG

[The GodMother]

Hi all.

 

Please can i have a answer to question 141.

 

I am assuming i can demand they be made to bring the docs to the court?

[mikek]

So for the first letter asking for a copy of the signed agreement under CPR 31.16 we give them 21 days.

 

How many days are reasonable for the second letter? 14 or 21?

 

Thanks

[Wilma Shoozfit]

So far B/C have supplied me with two copies of T & C's and a long winded letter telling me why they don't have to supply me documentation with any of my details on it and therefore as they've addressed this they no longer consider the account in dispute.

 

From my SAR I have a chunk of statements showing the account brought to a nil balance, with nil balance statements for about 18 months. This is in one card number. There's a six month gap, then a brought forward balance on a statement with a different card number. ?????

 

In a final response letter to my disputing and cancelling PPI they refute that I have cancelled the "optional" PPI in spite of the fact that they have signed for and replied to the cancellation letter.

 

To say that Barclays are being deliberately obtuse is an understatement.

I've posted the waffle letter from B/C on my thread but with Xmas folks have had better fish to fry! (Or turkeys to cook) and as yet I've not had anyone come back with a suitable and pithy response that I can send.

 

So I have prepared a version of PT's Nº1 letter and will send it off special delivery on Monday and see where that gets me.

[davey77]

I would be interested in PT's view regarding Credit Agreements applied for entirely online and the documentation supplied in response to a CCA request which therefore only contains a 'tick' in a box and the wording to the effect that 'this tick is a valid signature'.

 

Also, as per the first letter of this thread. Would it be appropriate to amend it in response to a CCA request that did contain signatures but, very little, or no prescribed terms within that signature document? (i.e Prescribed terms being on other unlinked and seemingly separate pages.)

 

For instance:

 

"I respectfully request that you provide me by return a copy of the credit agreement which bears my signature as well as the Prescribed Terms...

..I must stress this request is NOT made pursuant to section 78 Consumer Credit Act 1974 but is made pursuant to the Civil Procedure Rules ( Pre action protocols and Part 31.16) and therefore an unsigned copy that does not contain the Prescribed Terms embodied within any signature document as defined in Law will not suffice, only a copy of the original and Full contract in its unaltered form will suffice in these circumstances."

 

Or something to that effect?!

[The GodMother]

bump to my question i post number 141

[Falcokeith]

I just recived a response to a CCA request from CITI informing me that 78 CCA 1974 does not require them to provide me a copy of my agreement.

 

Having been pointed in the direction of this thread from another member i can see excatly what PT is talking about.

 

His first letter will be sent to them first thing.

 

Thanks PT and very well done

 

P.S. Well done to all on this thread very informative

[mikek]

My requests under CPR 31.16 were posted 10 days ago recorded.

 

Will keep you posted.

[Dgoldston]

Hi!

If this is the way to proceed, then presumably we are not able to argue that the account is officially in dispute while the lender is going through this process and need to keep making payments etc?

 

I am in the middle of using the CCA process and most lenders have indeed sent me a current and not original copy of the agreement.

 

Thanks