Locked in car park

[Patma]

I've sent you an email, TLD. Another opinion received.

[Bookworm]

Good question, Natalie, In fact Fred 's dyslexia etc hadn't, at that point been diagnosed, so although he knew that he had problems he didn't have a diagnosis. It's certainly possible that the college could have noticed though.

He had a full assessment and diagnosis in 2007.

Sorry, just thought to bring a bit of caution here. "The college" is not one person, and whilst it is possible that some of Fred's teachers may have been aware of him having some kind of difficulties, I think it is pushing the conspiracy theory too far to suppose that the admin side would have been aware or taken advantage of a yet undiagnosed condition. That's the kind of supposition which could damage your credibility in court, tbh. ;-)

 

As for the caution "not existing" if he couldn't understand it, I'd be careful with that too. Dyslexia doesn't mean an impairment of intelligence, far from it, and it could be reasonably argued that someone who managed to attend college and successfully (presumably?) follow the course etc would be quite capable of understanding the wording of a caution. Again, I'd be very careful in using that tack.

 

[2 very early p]

[Bookworm]

The more I think of it, and seeing this thread is now 39 pages long, it may be salutary to remind all of this very simple fact: He who accuses must prove. By all means, block all escape routes for them, but the basis of the defence still should be: "Prove your case".

 

 

 

THEN go for the throat.

[labrat]

more for the wallet than the throat.

 

carpie sacculus

 

as long as the defence is successful of course.

 

just a point if successfully defended is fred allowed to claim costs?

[foolishgirl]

 

just a point if successfully defended is fred allowed to claim costs?

 

Oh, yes. And how!!

[Toulose LeDebt]

Sorry, just thought to bring a bit of caution here. "The college" is not one person, and whilst it is possible that some of Fred's teachers may have been aware of him having some kind of difficulties, I think it is pushing the conspiracy theory too far to suppose that the admin side would have been aware or taken advantage of a yet undiagnosed condition. That's the kind of supposition which could damage your credibility in court, tbh. ;-)

 

As for the caution "not existing" if he couldn't understand it, I'd be careful with that too. Dyslexia doesn't mean an impairment of intelligence, far from it, and it could be reasonably argued that someone who managed to attend college and successfully (presumably?) follow the course etc would be quite capable of understanding the wording of a caution. Again, I'd be very careful in using that tack.

 

[2 very early p]

 

I agree BW. There are already sufficient grounds for having the caution expunged without muddying the waters trying to introduce anything new especially anything as difficult to prove as this.

The application has been made on a straightforward point of law (breach of process) which is eminently provable, the evidence to prove the breach of process has been forwarded to the police who dealt with the original arrest and upon checking with the solicitors who attended at his arrest Fred was startled to learn that not only does the solicitor corroborate Freds assertion but quite shockingly really, made Fred aware that there had been further breaches of process along exactly the same lines.

Judging by the way the police are dealing with the matter it's a bit of a hot potato for them as ultimately the caution can only be expunged by an officer of chief inspector rank or above and such are the 'breaches of process' that I don't imagine for one minute any of the officers involved particularly want to be the officer who approaches said CI on the matter.

[Toulose LeDebt]

The more I think of it, and seeing this thread is now 39 pages long, it may be salutary to remind all of this very simple fact: He who accuses must prove. By all means, block all escape routes for them, but the basis of the defence still should be: "Prove your case".

 

 

 

THEN go for the throat.

 

As it stands there is no proof of (any) damage caused. They will of course be put to strict proof, just hope the Judge understands this is by no means an unreasonable request.

[Toulose LeDebt]

I've sent you an email, TLD. Another opinion received.

 

Right had a look at this latest engineers review. Anyone care to hazard a guess if this barrier engineer also agrees that the motor casing could have been sheared in the incident? Or do we put it in the pile marked 'Impossible'

[natalie]

I wasnt suggesting Fred's learning difficulties to be used to gain advantage, rather I am still gobsmacked that a college would treat its students in this way, and it would have been made somewhat worse if they had known he had learning difficulties (I wasnt aware that it was dyslexia when I posted) and had exploited that fact knowing he was perhaps more vulnerable.

[Patma]

Sorry, just thought to bring a bit of caution here. "The college" is not one person, and whilst it is possible that some of Fred's teachers may have been aware of him having some kind of difficulties, I think it is pushing the conspiracy theory too far to suppose that the admin side would have been aware or taken advantage of a yet undiagnosed condition. That's the kind of supposition which could damage your credibility in court, tbh.

 

As for the caution "not existing" if he couldn't understand it, I'd be careful with that too. Dyslexia doesn't mean an impairment of intelligence, far from it, and it could be reasonably argued that someone who managed to attend college and successfully (presumably?) follow the course etc would be quite capable of understanding the wording of a caution. Again, I'd be very careful in using that tack.

Thanks Bookworm,

Don't worry I wasn't implying that Fred's several specific learning difficulties would be raised in challenging his caution because we wouldn't need them. There's so much other evidence as TLD said.

[Patma]

I wasnt suggesting Fred's learning difficulties to be used to gain advantage, rather I am still gobsmacked that a college would treat its students in this way, and it would have been made somewhat worse if they had known he had learning difficulties (I wasnt aware that it was dyslexia when I posted) and had exploited that fact knowing he was perhaps more vulnerable.

No worries,I understood where you were coming from, Natalie. In fact dyslexia is just one of his problems, but neither he nor I wish to make use of them in arguing against his caution, but I agree completely with what you say.

[My Real Name]

No worries,I understood where you were coming from, Natalie. In fact dyslexia is just one of his problems, but neither he nor I wish to make use of them in arguing against his caution, but I agree completely with what you say.

Whilst I can appreciate not wishing to use the argument, I would be hesitant hesitant in holding back when dealing with the police. It's an unfortunate stat of affairs, but common sense and fairness have next to no place in the relationship between the police and the rest of us.

[Patma]

Fred is very busy now working on preparing his court bundle. I'm going to help as much as poss but I don't have experience of this, so practical suggestions welcomed please about organising and presenting the paperwork.

[Bookworm]

You could check out the Library for the bank charges bundles, the basic one written by me, the other one by Zootscoot, to show you how to possibly organise yourself. ;-)

[labrat]

remember 3 copies of everything, your copy, judges copy, their copy

[banker_rhymes_with]

...remember 3 copies of everything, your copy, judges copy, their copy

 

And if the Judge's copy is delivered to the Court beforehand, then take another 4th copy with you on the day, just in case the Judge cannot seem to find the one he/she has already been given.

 

Don't want Fred to find himself sitting in front of an empty desk.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[Patma]

Thanks everyone for your ideas,will pass them all on and I'll check out the links, thanks Bookworm.

[Toulose LeDebt]

And if the Judge's copy is delivered to the Court beforehand, then take another 4th copy with you on the day, just in case the Judge cannot seem to find the one he/she has already been given.

 

Don't want Fred to find himself sitting in front of an empty desk.

 

Cheers,

BRW

 

Crikey what a good idea!!

 

Imagine how disadvantaged the defendant would be if he had to say pass his copy of the Court bundle to the Judge in such circumstances?

[Patma]

Crikey what a good idea!!

 

Imagine how disadvantaged the defendant would be if he had to say pass his copy of the Court bundle to the Judge in such circumstances?

Oh don't please!

That's like a bad dream.

I can just imagine Fred having nightmares of something like that happening.

Thank goodness our documents are safe with the police and courts so that sort of thing can't happen.:grin:

[JonCris]

And if the Judge's copy is delivered to the Court beforehand, then take another 4th copy with you on the day, just in case the Judge cannot seem to find the one he/she has already been given.

 

Don't want Fred to find himself sitting in front of an empty desk.

 

Cheers,

BRW

 

Excellent idea In fact I would go a step further I would also take a further copy just in case the opposition have 'lost' theirs;)

[JonCris]

& don't forget to paginate (number) the pages BEFORE copying

[JonCris]

Numbering the pages so the parties & in particular the Judge can identify them is VERY VERY important

[Toulose LeDebt]

Small update for the interested followers of this thread.

 

In just over a week the criminal aspect of this case has been escalated from being dealt with by a Police Sergeant to being dealt with by a Police Chief Superintendent.

[kiptower]

great news, well done to those involved in helping

[natalie]

Small update for the interested followers of this thread.

 

In just over a week the criminal aspect of this case has been escalated from being dealt with by a Police Sergeant to being dealt with by a Police Chief Superintendent.

 

Brilliant news!