Car Hire Purchase Agreement Question

[andrew1]

A chum of mine has a car on a Hire Purchase Agreement with RCI Finance and has fallen behind with a couple of payments. They are now getting heavy on him.

 

Can someone tell me how long an agreement needs to be in force before they can come and repossess the car or how many payments have had to have been made? He's concerned they may try and take the car back.

 

Ta

[boyfalldown]

Hi Sarah,

 

It depends on how much he's paid already. If less then 1/3rd of the total amount of the agreement they'd need to issue a default notice and then they could reposses regardless of time of agreement. Of course this depends on hime not complying with the default notice and it been valid

 

If he's paid 1/3 or more than they need to get a court order to reposses. Once he'd paid half he could terminate the agreement by handing the car back.

 

Cheer

 

H

[eastendboy]

Just to reiterate boyfalldown above, he is spot on

[andrew1]

Thanks to both of you, I'm just trying to find out the exact detail so I can establish the position. It looks like there has been one default already probably for the 2 missed payments and they have just issued another for the £25 late payment charge which seems a bit strange, but I'll check it out and come back as this is one of those balancing acts and playing with dates and amounts games by the looks of things before they come knocking on the door.

[lookinforinfo]

Hi Andrew-long time since we last spoke- I am pleased to see you are still here.

While BFD is quite right, bear in mind that many companies totally ignore the law and will often repossess regardless of the legal situation. In the light of what you have said about two defaults and only two payments missed, your friend might be in danger of losing the car, so they should keep it well hidden when not in use and the doors locked while driving.

Probably doubtful if either default is legal-have you seen them?

 

Regards Cynthia.

 

To all readers of this post except Andrew, my name is not Cynthia -that name is just a private thing between Andrew and myself.

[andrew1]

Hi Andrew-long time since we last spoke- I am pleased to see you are still here.

While BFD is quite right, bear in mind that many companies totally ignore the law and will often repossess regardless of the legal situation. In the light of what you have said about two defaults and only two payments missed, your friend might be in danger of losing the car, so they should keep it well hidden when not in use and the doors locked while driving.

Probably doubtful if either default is legal-have you seen them?

 

Regards Cynthia.

 

To all readers of this post except Andrew, my name is not Cynthia -that name is just a private thing between Andrew and myself.

 

Hi LFI, sorry I'd missed this...

 

One further question, I believe this has had at least half the payments made on this, if he kept the car - (can he keep the car legally?) after that time, what is the position with regard the remaining payments or can they repossess it until it's paid for in full?

 

..and, I've only seen the default notice for the £25 additional charges which seem to be added, they appear to be adding each late payment charge to their defaulted total by issuing a new default notice.

 

Sarah

[postggj]

hi andrew

if he has paid more than half, they can onl repo with a court order.

i helped out a cagger on this one ref welcome finance

they ended up paying him eight grand as they did not have a court order

 

have you thought about a vt

[andrew1]

hi andrew

if he has paid more than half, they can onl repo with a court order.

i helped out a cagger on this one ref welcome finance

they ended up paying him eight grand as they did not have a court order

 

have you thought about a vt

 

Okay, so once that half is paid, do they have to issue a summons to get the court order,? I guess they do, that's why they try and repo the vehicle ( sorry, thinking aloud) cos it's easier. what process did you need to go through to get that 8 grand? I take it the vehicle was actually taken back in that case?

 

sorry, what is a ' vt ' ?

 

Sarah

[postggj]

vt is a voluuntry termination

as you have paid half, you can hand back the vehicle and owe nothing

you can only do this as long as the account is not in arrears at the time of the vt request

 

ref the welcome repo

 

country wide, welcomes repo agents just turned up and took the car,

more than a third had been paid and they did not have a court order.

the repo was unlawful so he got back every penny he paid them through a court order

[lookinforinfo]

As he has paid over half, he has a choice.

He can either hand back the car voluntarily amd have no further payments to make [except the outstanding payments and if there is no damage to the car], or he can keep the car as long as he keeps making the payments.

If he wants to keep the car he is best to contact the lender and make an arrangement to bring the payments up to date. At the same time it might be advisable to point out that to recover the car would require a Court Order, just so they know that your friend knows the situation.

[andrew1]

My chum still has problems and unable to keep up with his payments, however, he made a request for a copy of the agreement under the CCA request and they have not complied. They keep threatening to come and get the car.

 

His position is that he would rather keep the car just now ( Mum just died-not a convenient time) and try and sort this in the new year and whilst they have not come up with a copy of the agreement they are obviously in default.

 

I'm again thinking aloud, but I presume that whilst in default they cannot apply dca's or bailiffs. To collect the car, they would have to issue a summons and get judgment for the arrears or full remaining balance before making any attempt to retrieve the car?

 

He is and will remain in arrears for a few months as his business is going through a hard time and may fold, and he doesn't want to just hand the car back until he has sorted himself out or made alternative transport arrangements, he'd rather let the debt collection process, with or without the agreement continue and use the time fruitfully...any thoughts or suggestions at the best way?

[boyfalldown]

Hi Sarah,

 

I'm really very sorry to hear about your friends Mum.

 

With the caveat that our DCA friends *allegedly* don't alway act within the letter of the law and may *allegedly* try and collect anyway.

 

The lack of a CCA would present a very clear and complete defence to them applying for a court order for repossession. This does of course assume that he's paid a third of the original amount off. If he's yet to pay a third then they would have to issue a default notice which as the account is in dispute they cannot now do.

 

When he's sorted himself out should he wish to terminate the agreement he should of cleared the arrears before doing so. Of course in the absence of a Credit Agreement how can the OC say what was owing but I think that is probably a bridge best crossed when we come to it.

 

 

I think the caveat above is worth resating though

 

BFD

[lookinforinfo]

Ideally the best thing that could happen would be for the bailiffs to repossess the car. As he has paid more than half, it should require a Court Order and that would not be granted whilst they are in breach of the CCA. So your friend would get all the payments back plus probably some sort of compensation for his out of pocket expenses after the repo. So best leave the car on his drive way.

 

If he doesn't want that to happen then he can do as you suggest. Best to contact the company though and tell them that the lack of the executed document makes the contract unenforceable but as he wishes to carry on using the car, he will continue to make the payments. But point out that in breach of the Act, they cannot pursue him -ie repo the car.

[andrew1]

Ideally the best thing that could happen would be for the bailiffs to repossess the car. As he has paid more than half, it should require a Court Order and that would not be granted whilst they are in breach of the CCA. So your friend would get all the payments back plus probably some sort of compensation for his out of pocket expenses after the repo. So best leave the car on his drive way.

 

If he doesn't want that to happen then he can do as you suggest. Best to contact the company though and tell them that the lack of the executed document makes the contract unenforceable but as he wishes to carry on using the car, he will continue to make the payments. But point out that in breach of the Act, they cannot pursue him -ie repo the car.

 

Thanks guys/gals , I think his biggest fear is that his cash flow has all but dried up and Christmas is not going to help, the business is struggling badly and is affected by Christmas anyway-always a low earning period in his type of business. So keeping up with the payments I don't think is an option just now, it's over £300 a month. I know he wants the best of both worlds in keeping the bailiffs/dca's off his back and from knocking on his door and keeping the car just now. He has a short fuse and as mentioned earlier, it's not a good time, so if they do come and take it, he will have recourse, what I want to help him do is bridge the gap between now and after Christmas.

 

Matter of interest, how long was the process between the taking of the car and getting the money paid back in your case? My chums paid more than half the payments so well over the one third level. I can give him the CAG/Cabot Fan Club script for keeping the finance co/ dca's off the harassment angle

but his delivery might not be so sweet

[postggj]

hi andrew

 

hear is the thread on how i stung welcome for eight grand on behalf of a cagger

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/repossessions/150726-car-repossession-welcome.html

[andrew1]

..and so it goes on...the car was repo'd a few weeks back after the company got a court order, he is in court tomorrow with the finance company asking for a Money Order for balance between what they sell the car for and what's left on the agreement Hes actually paid £7107.79 off the agreement which is here:[ATTACH]11782[/ATTACH]

 

I'm clutching at straws for him but can anyone find anything wrong with this agreement?

 

It's not a very good copy, but the best I can do...I know he had trouble getting a legible copy of the agreement and I'm just waiting to find out if he was still awaiting that when the car was repo'd. LFI may have hit on that point above and it may be useful, but it's a long shot and time has almost run out for him - the cars gone anyway, but now the finance company are in for the kill. We do have the signed agreements by both parties supplied.

Edited August 18, 2009 by andrew1

[andrew1]

I've just found out that the Original CCA request was way back in October 2008 and they sent an illegible copy, tiny writing. The original court Order came in April 09 and it was brought up in court that the agreement was illegible and the court gave the finance company a week to provide a legible one..they didn't but the car was repo'd in July so effectively the finance company were in default of their CCA requirements when the car was repossessed...now that changes things doesn't it?

 

If he goes to court tomorrow and states this to the Judge, that the company effectively took nearly 8 months to come up with a readable agreement and they repo'd the car whilst in default what might one expect the judge to do about this. what can my chum ask him to do? He'd already found for the finance company but stayed the case pending the production of the agreement. The hearing is tomorrow...what can he ask the court to do?

[postggj]

Ime Going Over The Agreement At The Moment Andrew And I Believe Ive Spotted A Few Things

 

Now Was The Cca Request Sent Recorded Delievery

If It Was, The Finance Co Have Big Problems

 

Recession Of Contract

 

Still Going Over The Agreement

[postggj]

Where Was The Agreement Signed

Was It In A Car Show Room (silly Question I Know)

 

Why Has Vat Been Added

 

A Minimum Futre Value Of Three Grand And Excess Milage To Pay In The Final Installment

 

Credit Facilty Fee (whats This)

 

Now Option Fee

Is Interest Being Paid On That As Its An Option To Purchess

 

And I Thought Welcome Were Bad

 

Shafted Big Time

 

We Need To Get The Case Suspended For A Few Weeks So We Can Go Through This With A Fine Tooth Comb

 

It Might Be An Idea To Send Stephen A Pm To Give The Once Over

[andrew1]

Where Was The Agreement Signed

Was It In A Car Show Room (silly Question I Know)

 

Why Has Vat Been Added

 

A Minimum Futre Value Of Three Grand And Excess Milage To Pay In The Final Installment

 

Credit Facilty Fee (whats This)

 

Now Option Fee

Is Interest Being Paid On That As Its An Option To Purchess

 

And I Thought Welcome Were Bad

 

Shafted Big Time

 

We Need To Get The Case Suspended For A Few Weeks So We Can Go Through This With A Fine Tooth Comb

 

It Might Be An Idea To Send Stephen A Pm To Give The Once Over

 

 

Thanks, I'll be about on and off tonight and I have my chums phone number so I can ring himn. He's in court tomorrow afternoon so I need to prepare him.

[postggj]

We Need To Get This Case Adjorned

[andrew1]

We Need To Get This Case Adjorned

 

right, what happened is that there were various verbal requests for a copy of the agreement ( he's not a cagger:D ) back in Oct 08 but a letter went in in Feb this year asking for a copy and they sent a bad copy which could not be read. The Judge at the hearing in April Set aside the case demanding the finance company presented the agreement in legible format and they didn't and hadn't until June, but they took the car back in May so they were still in default of supplying this when they took the car.

 

Whether he can get the set aside again or even get the case struck out I know not, but it would be a result if he got it struck out and even got back what he'd paid. They don't seem to be able to produce a copy legible enough ( ignore this one! ) as their record keeping seems to be very poor and they just keep trying to produce blown up copies which still can't be read. What do you think he should say to the Judge ...It's being heard in Dartford...

[elizabeth1]

Andrew there is a problem with this agreement the VAT figure is wrong I am sure it shouldn't be there.

 

Also isn't there something with car agreements if there has been more than a certain amount repaid on car loan (half or two thirds not sure what figure is hoping someone here knows this) company can't repo without a court order = they are supposed to renegotiate repayments.

[postggj]

MY THOUGHTS EXACTLY LIZ ON THE VAT

 

WHY IS IT ON THERE

 

YOU NEED TO TELL THE JUDGE ABOUT THE COURT ORDER FOR A LEGIBLE COPY OF THE AGREEMENT AND THERE FAILURE TO PRODUCE

 

 

PRINT THIS OFF AND GIVE IT TO THE JUDGE

A LEGIBLE COPY IS NEEDED OR THEY ARE IN DEFAULT

 

WE NEED AN ADJORNMENT FOR THEM TO PRODUCE A VALID/LEGIBLE COPY OF THE AGREEMENT

 

DID HE HAVE A DEFAULT NOTICE

 

 

Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY

Action against an account whilst it remains in dispute.

 

The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

 

* You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

* You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.

* You may not pass the account to a third party.

* You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.

* You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

 

 

THEY REPO THE CAR WHILE IN DISPUTE WHICH IS A RECESION OF CONTRACT

[andrew1]

MY THOUGHTS EXACTLY LIZ ON THE VAT

 

WHY IS IT ON THERE

 

YOU NEED TO TELL THE JUDGE ABOUT THE COURT ORDER FOR A LEGIBLE COPY OF THE AGREEMENT AND THERE FAILURE TO PRODUCE

 

 

PRINT THIS OFF AND GIVE IT TO THE JUDGE

A LEGIBLE COPY IS NEEDED OR THEY ARE IN DEFAULT

 

WE NEED AN ADJORNMENT FOR THEM TO PRODUCE A VALID/LEGIBLE COPY OF THE AGREEMENT

 

DID HE HAVE A DEFAULT NOTICE

 

 

Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY

Action against an account whilst it remains in dispute.

 

The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

 

* You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

* You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.

* You may not pass the account to a third party.

* You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.

* You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

 

 

THEY REPO THE CAR WHILE IN DISPUTE WHICH IS A RECESION OF CONTRACT

 

 

Thanks you guys sorry, been tied up with family issues..( Lizzy's a guy ) So, what does this mean ' a recesion of contract' and what effect does on have to my mate. If he says to the Judge this is a recesion of contract what will it mean he can have done?

 

As for the VAT, why are you saying the VAT shouldn't be on there - do hire purchase agreements not have vat?