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    • Please see my witness statement below.  Please let me know what modifications I need to apply.  I haven't included anything related to "administrative charge while paying by credit or debit card" as I wasn't sure if I should include since sign says "it may apply"   Background  1.1 Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of November 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.    Contract  2.1 No Locus Standi, I do not believe a contract exists with the landowner that gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” From PoFA (Protection of Freedoms Act) 2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-  (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or  (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44  For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.    Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed  3.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.  3.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.  3.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.  3.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.    Unfair PCN  4.1         As stipulated in Exhibit 1 (Pages 7-13) sent by DCB Legal following the defendant’s CPR request the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows £60.00 parking charge notice and will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue. The defendant puts it to the claimant a request for strict proof when the signage changed to show £100.00 parking charge as the evidence provided by DCB Legal stipulated £60.00 parking charge was indeed the parking charge at the time defendant parked and included in Exhibit 1   4.3        The Claimant did not respect PAPLOC   4.4        It is also unfair to delay litigation for so long and claim nearly four years' interest.    No Keeper Liability  5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.  5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.    5.3        The claimant did not mention parking period instead only mentioned time 20:25 which is not sufficient to qualify as a parking period.   Protection of Freedoms Act 2012  The notice must -  (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;      No Breach of Contract  6.1      No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY.  6.2        The wording “Electric Bay Abuse” is not listed on their signs nor there is any mention on the contract of any electric charging points at all let alone who can park there or use them.    Double Recovery  7.1        As well as the original £100 parking charge and £50 allowed court/legal costs, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  7.2        PoFA Schedule 4, paragraph 4(5) states that “the maximum sum which may be recovered from the keeper is the amount specified in the notice to keeper”. Which in this case is £100.  7.3        The Parking (Code of Practice) Act 2019 is also quite clear that the maximum amount recoverable is £100.  Government ministers and government web pages explaining the Act refer to extra charges as "a rip off".  7.4        Unless the Claimant can clearly demonstrate how these alleged additional costs have been incurred this would appear to be an attempt at double recovery.  7.5        Previous parking charge cases have found that the parking charge itself is at a level to include the costs of recovery i.e. Parking Eye Ltd vs Beavis (2015) UKSC 67 which is the authority for recovery of the parking charge itself and no more, since the sum £85 was held to already incorporate the costs of an automated private parking business model and the Supreme Court Judges held that a parking firm not in possession cannot plead any part of their case in damages. It is indisputable that an alleged “parking charge” penalty is a sum which the Supreme Court found is already inflated to more than comfortably cover all costs. The case provides a finding of fact by way of precedent, that the £85 (or up to a Trade Body ceiling of £100 depending on the parking firm) covers the costs of all the letters. Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court V Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practise continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (...) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6        In Claim numbers F0DP806M and F0DP201T, Britannia vs Crosby the courts went further in a landmark judgement in November 2019 which followed several parking charge claims being struck out in the area overseen by His Honour Judge Iain Hamilton-Douglas Hughes GC, the Designated Civil Judge for Dorset, Hampshire, Isle of Wight & Wiltshire. District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgement or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating “It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverable under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgement in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for a addi8onal sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998.  7.7        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.  7.8        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).  7.9        The Defendant is of the view that the Claimant knew, or should have known, that to claim in excess of £100 for a parking charge on private lands is disallowed under the CPRs, the Beavis case, the PoFA AND THE CRA 2015, and that relief from sanctions should be refused.    In Conclusion  8.1        I believe the Claimant has got use to intimidation tactics and has got greedy. I believe the truth of the manor is the Claimant has used bullying tactics successfully for too long and is therefore assured that innocent drivers will fall into the trap of paying rather than going through the hours it takes to defend themselves. In the process, wasting the time of the Court, the time of the Defendant and everyone else who has advised the Defendant, out of sheer decency to help have a fair hearing and see justice delivered.  8.2        I am still in disbelief that I am being heard in this court, defending myself nearly 4 years after receiving a charge through my door. I have had to spend weeks’ worth of my life studying the letter of the law in order to defend myself from this ridiculous attempt at a swindle.  8.3        I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth. 
    • 'I thought why don’t we give it a try?' said student Swapnil Shrivastav, after inspiration struck during water rations.View the full article
    • honestly he/she just makes these ppc look so stupid everytime   fairplay lfi
    • Women share their stories of how they feel renting has held them back in life.View the full article
    • First, the Entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract. so it only  is an offer to treat.  Second, the sign does say % hours free without mentioning that it is also the maximum time one can stay. it would be logical to presume that there would be a fee for staying longer-but not £100. Looking at the PCN-as usual it does not comply with the protection of freedoms Act 2012 Schedule 4. First it does not specify the parking period since their figure includes driving from the entrance to the parking space, then later driving from the driving space to the exit. Second it does not inform the keeper that the driver is expected to pay the charge Section 9 [2]] (b)inform the keeper that the driver is required to pay parking charges in respect of the specified period of parking and that the parking charges have not been paid in full; What that means is that you as keeper are no longer liable to pay the charge-only the driver is. As anyone with a valid insurance can drive your car they will have difficulty proving who was driving especially as you haven't appealed. In addition the Courts should your case get that far, do not accept that the driver and the keeper ae the same person. So just relax and ignore all their threats even from their unregulated debt collectors and sixth rate solicitors.  Just do not ignore a Letter of Claim if you get one of those-come back to us so that you can send a snotty letter.
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Bank Error in My Favour


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No, I am not just in the middle of trying to buy Mayfair and all 4 stations!

 

This week my wife and I were moving money from one bank to another to pay all the bills.

 

The queues were very long, and so I joined the queue for bank Y. This was the bank where we were going to put the money in. My wife went to bank X to get the money out.

 

We had previous phoned bank X and asked for them to keep £1800 for us to take out.

 

My wife came into the bank and gave me a brown envelope with cash and then went off to do a couple of things in the town.

 

I went to the till of bank Y and gave them the brown envelope. I said to the lady that there was £1800 in the envelope. My baby was screaming so I went to pick him up while she counted it twice.

 

She gave me the receipt for the money and I left the bank.

 

When I met up with my wife again I gave her the receipt as she is more trustworthy than I with keeping little bits of paper. She read it and said "how did you give the bank £1800".

 

I said isn't that how much was supposed to be in the envelope you gave me.

 

She said "No, they only had £1500 available, so I only gave you £1500. I thought you would have realized." (Please let's not even go to the place where we ask how she could have thought I would have realized!).

 

Now I have bank X showing I have taken out £1500.

I have bank Y showing I have put in £1800.

 

I have receipts for both transactions.

 

My question: will the banks ever notice? Will anyone ever notice? Should I even care? If I contact the banks what will they do? If I don't contact the banks what will they do?

 

Or does this mean that Bank Y is funding my Christmas money this year?

 

Any advice / ideas would be helpful.

 

Thanks,

NMAM.

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Hi NMAN and welcome to CAG.

 

As you are aware of the error, it's your responsibility to contact the bank and report it. Failure to do so could leave you exposed to allegation of fraud.

 

The error will, I'm sure, be quickly picked up by the bank when carrying out their till reconcilliations.

 

Do the right thing and contact the bank tomorrow. Looks like you'll have to fund Xmas yourselves again !! ;)

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The cashier should have obviously checked it, but Slick is correct. whilst it is possible that the bank may not notice (this happened to a friend but involved a much smaller amount and the bank did not find out), morally and legally you need to contact the bank to let them know.

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While I'm not questioning the legal and moral implications, I have to ask, even if the bank did pick this up how would it get linked to the OP. Unless the OP was the only person that cashier served that day, it could have been anyone!

All my posts are made without prejudice and may not be reused or reproduced without my express permission (or the permission of the forums owners)!

 

17/10/2006 Recieve claim against me from lloyds TSB for £312.82

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29/05/07 4pm Lloyds deadline for payment of CCJ expires. Warrant of execution ready to go

19/06/07 Letter from court stating Lloyds have made a cheque payment to court

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As you are aware of the error, it's your responsibility to contact the bank and report it. Failure to do so could leave you exposed to allegation of fraud.

 

The error will, I'm sure, be quickly picked up by the bank when carrying out their till reconcilliations.

 

Do the right thing and contact the bank tomorrow. Looks like you'll have to fund Xmas yourselves again !! ;)

Actually, I'd disagree (sorry, Slick and Gyzmo!). It is the responsability of the bank to check that it all tallies.

 

However, before our new member gets over-excited, I'd say check your bank statement, the receipt may say £1800, but the teller may well have keyed in £1500 anyway (depending on whether receipt was handwritten or printed out).

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Quite a dilema.As stated the correct thing to do is phone them up & tell them.

 

... or you could wait for them to write to you.

 

I once wrote a cheque to my second bank.The funds moved across but weren't deducted from the first account.Unfortunately it wasn't a nice "round" figure like yours and it showed up about 6 weeks later.

 

My phone wasn't working at the time.;)

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I doubt very much that if you opted to keep quiet, you'd risk allegations of Fraud.

 

Even if you did, the circumstances given do not meet all of the elements of the offence, namely that you:

 

made (you did this)

a false representation (you did this)

dishonestly (you didn't do this)

knowing that the representation was or might be untrue or misleading (you didn't do this)

with intent to make a gain for himself or another, to cause loss to another or to expose another to risk of loss. (you didn't do this)

 

(See Section 2, Fraud Act 2006)

 

Chances are that they won't be able to demonstrate that it was your transaction specifically that has caused the cashflow to be out (bearing in mind that, if they do accuse you, they'd ultimately have to demonstrate on balance of probabilities that it was, rather than you demonstrating that it wasn't).

 

My 2p. :)

If I've been helpful, please add to my rep. :)

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But how do we know that it is not the first bank that made the error. The op says that she counted it 'twice', is a cashier likely to make a counting error twice? If the answer is yes, then it could have easily been the paying out banks error.

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Hi Sefton,

 

Call it what you want. I used the word fraud loosely. :)

 

The OP knows that an error appears to have been made leaving them with £300 more than believe they paid in.

 

Leaving aside the moral duty to check and sort this out, is the OP exposed to ANY possible allegation for wrong-doing? Theft, deception, etc.

 

If not, are most of you saying that OP should do nothing and hope for the best.:confused:

 

Haha, I'll bet this is all a waste of time and the error was corrected at close of business anyway. :p

 

It does seem strange that the receiving cashier counted the money twice without noticing it was £300 short.

 

Or is NOTMYACTUALNAME really........................Derren Brown. ;)

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Leaving aside the moral duty to check and sort this out, is the OP exposed to ANY possible allegation for wrong-doing? Theft, deception, etc.

 

The elements of the offence of theft are markedly similar to those for fraud...

 

A person is guilty of theft if he -

dishonestly (there is no dishonesty if the OP did not know there was less money in the envelope than he stated)

appropriates property (this was done)

belonging to another (this was done)

with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it (if he doesn't inform the bank of their error he has permanently deprived, but the test isn't met because he did not intend to permanently deprive when he paid the money in)

 

(See section 1 of the Theft Act 1968 )

 

There is no offence of dishonesty on its own.

 

No other offence appears to have been committed prima facie.

 

If not, are most of you saying that OP should do nothing and hope for the best.:confused:

 

I'm just playing Devil's Advocate :grin:

If I've been helpful, please add to my rep. :)

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I'm just playing Devil's Advocate :grin:

I realise that! Some of us, however, can be more Advocate than Devil. ;)

 

So, if you don't mind me asking, how would YOU advise NMAN:-

 

1) Legally

 

2) Morally

 

:)

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I realise that! Some of us, however, can be more Advocate than Devil. ;)

 

So, if you don't mind me asking, how would YOU advise NMAN:-

 

1) Legally

 

No crime has been committed and, whilst the police could in principle be involved, no reasonable prosecutor would charge and no reasonable jurist would convict.

 

In civil terms, if the bank could prove that the mistake occurred, and that the OP was the beneficiary, they would be able to recover the money in civil proceedings. However, firstly I'd doubt that they could pinpoint a specific transaction as having been the cause, secondly I'd doubt that even if they could, they could gather sufficient evidence to be successful in court, and thirdly if they had managed these two, or at least were bluffing, I'd put them on strict proof of the same before I parted with the money.

 

There's no duty to notify them of their error.

 

2) Morally

 

I don't think I'd have a moral objection to keeping the money - there has been no deception; it is a relatively minuscule sum of money compared with the profit a bank makes; and I doubt the bank would go to too much trouble if the tables were turned.

 

That said, if the "victim" were a person, or a charity/good cause, the money would go straight back.

If I've been helpful, please add to my rep. :)

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I would have to agree with Coniff in asking how a cashier who sits there and counts money all day 5 days a week could posibly mis-count £300, if it were a few pound then yes that is easy enough, or at most £50 (mis-count one £50 note). But £300 doesn't seem possible unless the cashier is very careless in what they are doing.

 

I would check both accounts to see if the numbers match up as it may just be an error on your receipts.

 

Personally, if the bank has made the error, I wouldn't inform the banks and just wait for them to come to me with enough proof that i owe them money. I would also put the extra £300 away somewhere safe in case they do come back later to get their money.

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All i want to add to this, is that the cashier would have a difference of £300 on their till. This could potentially lead to them being sacked(worse case scanario) but they are more than likely to find that amount and debit the account the remaining £300. The cashier did make a mistake and they did debit less than they should have and the repercussions for them could be no job.

I am not making any further responses to this thread.

.

FSA Waiver on Bank Charges:http://www.fsa.gov.uk/pages/Doing/Regulated/Notify/Waiver/pdf/dir_quart_0709.pdf

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All i want to add to this, is that the cashier would have a difference of £300 on their till. This could potentially lead to them being sacked(worse case scanario) but they are more than likely to find that amount and debit the account the remaining £300. The cashier did make a mistake and they did debit less than they should have and the repercussions for them could be no job.

I am not making any further responses to this thread.

 

The return of the money would not likely save their job either - the issue therein being that the cashier has demonstrated negligence. This argument isn't a legitimate one to follow because the mistake is the fault of the cashier for not doing the job properly. This may be harsh, but it's true.

If I've been helpful, please add to my rep. :)

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tbh can you really see a cashier making such a mistake i don`t think so

there may be two things that happened

 

1. wife got £1800 out of bank 1 and £1800 was paid in

 

2. This is a fairy story, proftional people like cashiers do not make mistakes like this

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