BCW - reprise (a legal notification)

davey_weir · January 3, 2009

The above "demand" has no legal authority whatsoever.

How so?

KER · January 8, 2009

Here's an interesting thread:

Refund on ebay - item not returned to me - Advice - Digital Spy Forums

I wonder how this is different from your situation? Do you think that the seller should automatically just refund the money too even though they never got the item?

blind-as-a-bat · January 8, 2009

Here's an interesting thread:

Refund on ebay - item not returned to me - Advice - Digital Spy Forums

I wonder how this is different from your situation?

The instructions from the seller on how it MUST be returned is a BIG differance.

In that case the seller covered there back insisting it was sent recorded, which if O2 had done the same in this case would meen there was no argument.

The OP in this thread cannot prove the item was returned, but claims it was returned as per the sellers instruction by there pre-paid envolope, it was the sellers responsibilaty that some form of tracking was atached to it, unless they clearly stated that was the resbonsibilaty of the sender, and the envolope was just for there conveniance.

Look at it from the other side if you had returned an item, as per the instructions you where given by the seller, and then the seller denied reciept, why does there claim they never recieved it hold more truth than the senders claim it was sent back?

Yes there are people that will claim things had been returned when they have not, but there is also the chance the item was stolen in transit, or miss filed on reciept in such a large organisation.

While i understand your view Ker, and getting proof of postage would have been prudent, hindsight is a wonderfull thing, but as the seller provided the means by which to return the item, by doing so they have to accept responsabilaty for the loss IF the buyer followed the sellers instruction on how to return the item to the letter.

KER · January 8, 2009

I think you have written an excellent piece there to be honest (although as has been made plain, I think it's basic common sense to get a record for sending something like this - whether they give you specific instructions or not - if there is no tracking attached, you get some for your own protection!)

However, I think maybe the OP should use that as a basis for a template and send something off to 02 directly and send it RECORDED DELIVERY!!!!

davey_weir · January 8, 2009

The instructions from the seller on how it MUST be returned is a BIG differance.

In that case the seller covered there back insisting it was sent recorded, which if O2 had done the same in this case would meen there was no argument.

The OP in this thread cannot prove the item was returned, but claims it was returned as per the sellers instruction by there pre-paid envolope, it was the sellers responsibilaty that some form of tracking was atached to it, unless they clearly stated that was the resbonsibilaty of the sender, and the envolope was just for there conveniance.

Look at it from the other side if you had returned an item, as per the instructions you where given by the seller, and then the seller denied reciept, why does there claim they never recieved it hold more truth than the senders claim it was sent back?

Yes there are people that will claim things had been returned when they have not, but there is also the chance the item was stolen in transit, or miss filed on reciept in such a large organisation.

While i understand your view Ker, and getting proof of postage would have been prudent, hindsight is a wonderfull thing, but as the seller provided the means by which to return the item, by doing so they have to accept responsabilaty for the loss IF the buyer followed the sellers instruction on how to return the item to the letter.

Spot on, took the words out of my.....keys?!?! Thank you. Plus I had returned phones to them by following the same instructions and by going to the same post office before without problem.

I think you have written an excellent piece there to be honest (although as has been made plain, I think it's basic common sense to get a record for sending something like this - whether they give you specific instructions or not - if there is no tracking attached, you get some for your own protection!)

However, I think maybe the OP should use that as a basis for a template and send something off to 02 directly and send it RECORDED DELIVERY!!!!

Dont worry, I will!!!! Thank you. Im starting to like you again!!

KER · January 9, 2009

And don't forget to send a copy of it to the current debt collectors too - RECORDED!

The GodMother · January 9, 2009

just remember to send everything by recorded delivery.

davey_weir · January 9, 2009

And don't forget to send a copy of it to the current debt collectors too - RECORDED!

just remember to send everything by recorded delivery.

Recorded Delivery is a definite now. Im sending everything ever by recorded delivery!

Philips have sent me another letter.

KER · January 9, 2009

Recorded Delivery is a definite now. Im sending everything ever by recorded delivery!

Philips have sent me another letter.

If I find you haven't sent something by recorded delivery in the future, I'm going to come and find you and slap you with a wet kipper!!! :-o

The GodMother · January 9, 2009

you dont need to mail your mums birthday card by recorded delivery, unless they may be late, but i think u will find anything important like docs do need to go by recorded delivery.

KER · January 10, 2009

you dont need to mail your mums birthday card by recorded delivery, unless they may be late, but i think u will find anything important like docs do need to go by recorded delivery.

Well I was going to reply "surely common sense would tell you that"..... but then I remembered what thread I was in ;):D

The GodMother · January 10, 2009

actually no common sense does not always say that. U see the only time i tend to visit the PO is to send a letter either recorded or special delivery now so when i had to post some cards i automatically posted them recorded delivery.

KER · January 11, 2009

actually no common sense does not always say that. U see the only time i tend to visit the PO is to send a letter either recorded or special delivery now so when i had to post some cards i automatically posted them recorded delivery.

Errr ok..... I think "most" people sort through their mail as they are at the post office saying "this one recorded, this one special, this one to America" etc etc Perhaps you were just having a lack of concentration day :grin:

davey_weir · January 14, 2009

Ok, I am sending this today to both o2 and Philips:

14 January 2009

Telefónica O2 UK Limited

260 Bath Road

Slough

Berkshire

SL1 4DX

CC:

Philips Collection Services

PO Box 997

Doncaster

South Yorkshire

DN1 9GD

RE PHILIPS REFERENCE – O2 REFERENCE

You are pursuing me via a debt collection agency for £714.85 in relation to a mobile telephone contract, which I was miss-sold and cancelled during an extended cooling off period.

Wescott were satisfied I had no case to answer and told me they I would hear no more from them, which I didn’t.

I then received a letter from Buchanan Clark & Wells requesting the sum of approximately £711 that I owed to o2. I contacted BCW to question this and to explain that I had already had communication with another credit agency that closed the case. To date I think received six telephone calls from whom I presume are BCW. As previously stated, I regard this as harassment under section 40 of the Administration of Justice Act 1970, and the Protection from Harassment Act 1997.

Can I also draw your attention to the letter from o2 dated 3rd November 2008. In this etter, Simone Tiffin states that “(o2) provided a jiffy bag for you to return your phone to us, to take you out of contract taken out in july 2007. Unfortunately, as you’re already aware, we’ve never received the return of your phone.”

I used the said jiffy bag and pre-paid label to return the phone via Royal Mail. It was the responsibility of o2 that some form of tracking was attached to the jiffy bag as it was not stated that this would be my responsibility. I followed the instructions of o2 who now deny receipt of the phone. Why does your claim hold more truth than mine? I agree, people will claim items have been returned when they haven’t. However, I also agree that the item may have been mis-filed on receipt in such a large organisation or stolen in transit. Bearing in mind the phone was used after the date of return, this seems likely and I have reported this to Royal Mail. However, Royal Mail has stated that as no tracking was attached to the item then it would be impossible to trace it.

AT NO POINT THROUGHOUT WAS PROOF OF POSTAGE OR ANY TRACKING METHOD REQUESTED BY O2.

Hindsight is a fanctastic thing. I now send everything of value with some form of tracking attached to it.

I have received communication from Philips Collection Services – a “specialist bailiff & debt recovery agent.” This means that o2 have allowed my details to be distributed without my authorisation to THREE separate external parties. I am familiar with the Office of Fair Trading Debt Collection Guidance which states that it unfair to send demands for payment to an individual when it is uncertain that they are the debtor in question.

I would also point out that the OFT say under the Guidance that it is unfair to pursue third parties for payment when they are not liable. In not ceasing collection activity whilst investigating a reasonably queried or disputed debt you are using deceptive/and or unfair methods.

Furthermore ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment amounts to physical/psychological harassment.

Should it be your intention to arrange a “doorstep call”, please be advised that under OFT rules, you can only visit me at my home if you make an appointment and I have no wish to make an appointment with you.

There is only an implied license under English Common Law for people to be able to visit me on my property without express permission; the postman and people asking for directions etc (Armstrong v. Sheppard and Short Ltd [1959] 2 Q.B. per Lord Evershed M.R.). Therefore take note that I revoke license under Common Law for you, or your representatives to visit me at my property and if you do so, then you will be liable to damages for a tort of trespass and action will be taken, including but not limited to, police attendance.

I must admit that I am rather bemused as to why this account has been passed to Philips, as it is in dispute with the O2 and has been for some time. This is in breach of OFT collection guidelines.

I would respectfully suggest that this account is returned to the O2 for resolution of these defaults and breaches, as Philips cannot lawfully pursue any enforcement activities.

If Philips chooses to ignore my dispute and attempt enforcement, I may initiate legal action and file reports with the appropriate authorities, including, but not limited to, Trading Standards, Office of Fair Trading and the Information Commissioners Office.

After taking advice, I am of the opinion that any continued pursuit is in breach of a number of the OFT Collection Guidelines.

2 UNFAIR BUSINESS PRACTICES

Physical/psychological harassment

2.6 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

e. not informing the debtor when their case has been passed on to a

different debt collector

f. pressurising debtors to pay in full, in unreasonably large instalments,

or to increase payments when they are unable to do so

h. ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment

In light of this, I would like your assurance that any further collection activity will cease.

If I receive no further communication within 14 days of the date of this letter, I will conclude the matter resolved.

Thank you in advance for your assistance.

Yours truly,

Viscount Stair · January 14, 2009

Here is the letter sent by Philips. (I have myself a scanner now!!!)

Where, in this letter, is the option for "If this debt is in dispute contact us and we will back off until such debt is accepted"

And, aren't o2 breaking the law here by passing the debt and my details onto a FOURTH party?? (Nelson Solicitors, BCW and Philips)

I am somewhat wary of venturing into this thread and I have no intention whatsoever of expressing any opinion on the merits of O2's claim.

However, two quite important points about the above letter seem to have got lost in the crossfire.

1. Messrs Phillips may well be bailiffs but unless or until both a judgment and a warrant for execution are obtained then they are not acting in that capacity and to claim to be doing so is a flagrant breach of the OFT Debt Collection Guidelines and the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Guidelines.

2. Messrs Phillips might like receiving donations of £2 per payment but that is what they would be: donations. There is no basis for the "standard fee" and even asking for it is another breach of the Debt Collection Guidelines and CPUTR.

davey_weir · January 14, 2009

I am somewhat wary of venturing into this thread and I have no intention whatsoever of expressing any opinion on the merits of O2's claim.

However, two quite important points about the above letter seem to have got lost in the crossfire.

1. Messrs Phillips may well be bailiffs but unless or until both a judgment and a warrant for execution are obtained then they are not acting in that capacity and to claim to be doing so is a flagrant breach of the OFT Debt Collection Guidelines and the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Guidelines.

2. Messrs Phillips might like receiving donations of £2 per payment but that is what they would be: donations. There is no basis for the "standard fee" and even asking for it is another breach of the Debt Collection Guidelines and CPUTR.

Thank you, I think I will amend my letter and include what you have just said.

bazaar · January 14, 2009

HI Davey

you could also add to your letter:-

Please be advised that any further correspondence that requires my time to respond will be charged at my self employed rate of £27 per hour. Should you continue to send correspondence to this address, I will assume that you are willing to enter into this agreement.

davey_weir · January 14, 2009

Updated letter, to be sent tomorrow, RECORDED DELIVERY!!!!!

15 January 2009

Telefónica O2 UK Limited

260 Bath Road

Slough

Berkshire

SL1 4DX

CC:

Philips Collection Services

PO Box 997

Doncaster

South Yorkshire

DN1 9GD

RE PHILIPS REFERENCE – O2 REFERENCE

You are pursuing me via a debt collection agency for £714.85 in relation to a mobile telephone contract, which I was miss-sold and cancelled during an extended cooling off period.

Wescott were satisfied I had no case to answer and told me they I would hear no more from them, which I didn’t.

I then received a letter from Buchanan Clark & Wells requesting the sum of approximately £711 that I owed to o2. I contacted BCW to question this and to explain that I had already had communication with another credit agency that closed the case. To date I think I received six telephone calls from whom I presume are BCW. As previously stated, I regard this as harassment under section 40 of the Administration of Justice Act 1970, and the Protection from Harassment Act 1997.

Can I also draw your attention to the letter from o2 dated 3rd November 2008. In this letter, Simone Tiffin states that “(o2) provided a jiffy bag for you to return your phone to us, to take you out of contract taken out in July 2007. Unfortunately, as you’re already aware, we’ve never received the return of your phone.”

I used the said jiffy bag and pre-paid label to return the phone via Royal Mail. It was the responsibility of o2 that some form of tracking was attached to the jiffy bag as it was not stated that this would be my responsibility. I followed the instructions of o2 who now deny receipt of the phone. Why does your claim hold more truth than mine? I agree, people will claim items have been returned when they haven’t. However, I also agree that the item may have been miss-filed on receipt in such a large organisation or stolen in transit. Bearing in mind the phone was used after the date of return, this seems likely and I have reported this to Royal Mail. However, Royal Mail has stated that as no tracking was attached to the item then it would be impossible to trace it.

AT NO POINT THROUGHOUT WAS PROOF OF POSTAGE OR ANY TRACKING METHOD REQUESTED BY O2.

Hindsight is a fantastic thing and, as a result of all of this, I now send everything of value with some form of tracking attached to it.

I have received communication from Philips Collection Services – a “specialist bailiff & debt recovery agent.” This means that o2 have allowed my details to be distributed without my authorisation to FOUR separate external parties (Nelson Solicitors, Wescott, BCW & now Philips). It is my understanding that to pass or to sell on an alleged debt whilst it is in dispute to a third and/or external party is illegal.

Philips may well be bailiffs but unless or until both a judgement and a warrant for execution are obtained then you are unable to lawfully act in this capacity. To claim so is a flagrant breach of OFT Debt Collection guidelines and the consumer protection from unfair trading guidelines. Philips may also like receiving donations of £2 per payment but they would simply be that – donations. There is no basis for the “standard fee” ad even asking for this is another breach of the Debt Collection Guidelines and consumer protection from unfair trading guidelines. I therefore hold the notices sent by Philips to have no legal standing whatsoever.

I am familiar with the Office of Fair Trading Debt Collection Guidance which states that it unfair to send demands for payment to an individual when it is uncertain that they are the debtor in question.