Metropolitan Collection Services don't have CCA agreement

[financialdunce]

I’m on a Debt Management Plan administered by the CCCS, but as I wrote recently I’ve sent S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) and CCA requests to all my creditors. The info has been dribbling in, although I’m having to prod the creditors pretty hard to get some of it, and it’s interesting to see how hard some of them try not to comply.

 

But today I received an interesting letter from Metropolitan Collection Services, who are handling an HSBC credit card account. The letter was in reply to my reminder that they hadn’t replied to my CCA request, and that under the act they could not pursue any alleged debt until they comply with the request. They wrote:

 

“With reference to your letter and the requested Credit Agreement, we are unable to produce a copy of this. This is due to the fact that the Credit Card was opened in 1996 and as our client is not required to keep documents that are older than 6 years, they no longer hold a copy.

Therefore we now require a full income and expenditure breakdown incorporating all other creditors. Would you please submit this by return.

We trust this clarifies matters.”

 

I’m interested in two things from this letter. Firstly, they admit they don’t have any of the original paperwork, and try to justify this with the age of the account. I’m sorely tempted to write back saying that since they don’t have the paperwork they can’t have any money: it’s not my problem that they or their client don’t maintain their files. I have read that legally that is the situation: but is that “really” true? I find it pretty incredible that banks would risk losing the ability to collect on debts by not bothering to keep original contracts on file, and if they don’t have the contract they surely must be able to enforce the debt some way. It’s a large sum of money, so I can’t see them giving up without a fight. I’m happy to slug it out with them, but I’d like to have some idea what the chance of success is, rather than just blunder in and make things worse. So can anybody point me to the legal chapter and verse stating that a creditor can’t enforce a debt in this situation? Anyone had a similar experience, especially with Metropolitan or HSBC?

 

The second interesting point is their request for an income and expenditure breakdown. They try to make a connection between their lack of paperwork and needing to see mine, but of course there is no logical connection: they’re completely different matters. I’m quite happy to send the I&E breakdown, but the thing is Metropolitan already have a copy of that from the CCCS, so why would they want it again?

 

Any advice welcome, and thanks in advance.

[stikky62]

CCA 1974

 

77.

Duty to give information to debtor under fixed-sum credit agreement.

— (1) The creditor under a regulated agreement for fixed-sum credit, within the prescribed period after receiving a request in writing to that effect from the debtor and payment of a fee of [F1£1], shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it, together with a statement signed by or on behalf of the creditor showing, according to the information to which it is practicable for him to refer,—

(a)

the total sum paid under the agreement by the debtor;

 

(b)

the total sum which has become payable under the agreement by the debtor but remains unpaid, and the various amounts comprised in that total sum, with the date when each became due; and

 

©

the total sum which is to become payable under the agreement by the debtor, and the various amounts comprised in that total sum, with the date, or mode of determining the date, when each becomes due.

 

 

(2) If the creditor possesses insufficient information to enable him to ascertain the amounts and dates mentioned in subsection (1)©, he shall be taken to comply with that paragraph if his statement under subsection (1) gives the basis on which, under the regulated agreement, they would fall to be ascertained.

 

(3) Subsection (1) does not apply to—

(a)

an agreement under which no sum is, or will or may become, payable by the debtor, or

 

(b)

a request made less than one month after a previous request under that subsection relating to the same agreement was complied with.

 

 

(4) If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1)—

(a)

he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement; .........

 

 

 

No CCA - Unenforceable

[FunkyFox]

They are legally required to provide you with a copy of your agreement relating to your credit card account. I wouldn't worry too much about all the other compliacations on enforceable agreements, no agreement = no pay. Without an agreement they cannot possible hope to enforce it.

 

You are right that it is 'incredible' that banks would make such monumental procedural and administrative errors. Welcome to the world of CAG.

 

As for the I&E, unders the circumstances I would ignore them.

 

Only consideration, if you are paying an affordable and reasonable amount through CCCS you may want to consider what you do as I doubt the CCCS would take kindly to refusing to pay one of your creditors. You then can relax safe in the knowledge that if MCS start making demands to review your account and asking for more (so it becomes unaffordable and unreasonable) then you have a VERY strong fall back position. MCS reguarly do this with my accounts with them.

 

It may not be a great idea, if the repayments are fair and reasonable, to appear as a debt avoider at this stage and just keep it up your sleeve for when MCS up the ante.

 

I'm sure in the circumstances (i.e. an admission of no agreement) others may advise you otherwise, its up to you in the end.

 

Best of luck

[ScarletPimpernel]

Frankly, I'd just stop paying them. MCS are HSBC's in-house clowns, and whilst they puff and blow a lot, it's all pish and wind. I had a similar situation, and whilst they sent acouple of letters threatening 'further action', though they were careful not to specify just what they meant, they soon stopped.

 

I have also, on behalf of a client, had CCCS stop payment to HSBC because they failed to comply with a CCA request. I just wrote and said that this particular account was to be removed from the schedule - and that was it.

[cashins]

If it was a stand alone, I would very firmly tell them to......

 

However, I have never got involved in the CCCs scenario and don't know the implications, so in this case, best I don't advise.

 

David

[financialdunce]

Thanks everyone for all your advice.

 

It’s an interesting situation, and I agree that my CCCS DMP complicates the situation somewhat. To be honest, CCCS have been a big help during a difficult period, so I don’t want to mess them about. But I seem to be moving toward a situation where I may be able to raise enough money to cover most of my debts, meaning that if even if I can’t pay them off entirely I ought to be able to negotiate reduced settlements. And obviously if the HSBC account is unenforceable that will help me deal with the others, so I’ve got a pretty good incentive to fight it out with MCS.

 

I think my best approach may be to follow Scarlet Pimpernel and simply remove HSBC/MCS from my DMP and deal with them separately. One question SP: when you had CCCS stop payment to HSBC did you specify to CCCS why you wanted HSBC removed from the schedule? Or did the CCCS not care why?

 

Thanks again everyone.

[miaow99]

A common misconception is that large institutions such as banks, governments etc are well established, and "know what they are doing". The institutions do, of course, everything in their power to maintain this facade.

 

I would lay a large sum on money on a wager that NONE of the people involved in selling, accepting and processing your original 1996 application are in the same job or department. I'd be surprised if any are still working for HSBC. (or Midland Bank as it was then if I recall correctly).

 

The reality is that most big organisations are run by people that move jobs every 2 years, and so never have to deal with the mess they create (they just collect the annual bonus and run), and staffed by poor overworked *****s whose morale is at rock bottom due to cost cutting and outsourcing. Hence, in my experience, most of them are utterly incompetent.

 

All these people care about is meeting the stock analysts forecasts at year end, and keeping the FSA off their back. If they do things which means that bank is gonna be screwed 10 years on, why should they care?

 

Great news about HSBC!

Edited September 10, 2008 by miaow99

[ScarletPimpernel]

CCCS didn't seem bothered as to the reason why the account was to be removed. I have had discussions with them about CCAs and disputed accounts, and their line has always been that if the individual wants to pursue that line, it's a matter for them; CCCS' see their role only as arranging payments to the industry that funds them.

[smt37]

A very interesting thread indeed.

 

I've had an HSBC credit card for about 10 years now and MCS are handling it on behalf of them. I've not asked for a copy of the CCA, but recently offered a F&F of 50%. They declined.

 

Now I've seen this, I'm going to request the CCA and use that as a bargaining tool. My average balance over 10 years has been about £8,000, so they've had a huge amount of interest off me in that time. I don't feel bad about offering them half of the outstanding.

 

I've also got other credit cards with MBNA (12 years), Natwest (15 years), Mint (5 years) and Morgan Stanley (now Goldfish/Barclays) (3 years).

 

Does anyone know if there's a general timescale when CCA's were enforceable from? I'm pretty sure the Natwest and MBNA ones are missing by now!

[louise1111]

I had a call today from Central Debt Recovery/MCS re HSBC credit card. (it's ok as i can handle calls!)

 

I had a blank cca sent to me in march 08 as they did not have the original.

 

The woman threatened me with bailiffs etc. (she actually said 'it is not a threat but a fact') so i asked to speak to her supervisor. He apologised for her threats but he did not know what a cca was! He then said he would get a copy to me and hold the account until then. So it will be a long wait!

[huggy41]

short and sweet no cca no payment

[mexico86]

Metropolitan's call centre is an offshored operation somewhere in south asia, based on the accent of all the operatives I have spoken too. However, when asked, they say they are in 'Birming ham'. Trying to talk to them is utterly pointless, because their telephone operatives know absolutely nothing apart from what their scripts tell them. Most don't even know what a cca request is.

[OnMyWayOut]

Just tell them your number is listed with TPS and they are not allowed to call you - that'll confuse them!

[FunkyFox]

They are in Manila. To be fair by most UK based DCA standards they are at least civil and polite (well always have been to me). They may well have a 'be threatening' script too !

 

Just one other point to the OP and a common misconception. I certainly made it in the begining.

 

Not enforceable does not mean non existant. It does not mean that whatever the rights and wrongs and what the OFT guidelines say that you won't be pursued for it until its well past statute barred, probably by every DCA under the sun.

 

Getting an non enforceable debt removed from you credit file is a different matter altogether. Good luck.

[financialdunce]

Just tell them your number is listed with TPS and they are not allowed to call you - that'll confuse them!

 

I'm afraid you've lost me. What's TPS?

 

Thanks

[FunkyFox]

TPS = Telephone Preference Service. Debt collection is excluded from its remit as they would argue they already have a relationship with you and therefore they are not preventing from calling you. It is predominately used to stop unwanted cold calls and works very well for this purpose.

[cashins]

I've also got other credit cards with MBNA (12 years), NatWest (15 years),

 

CCA them pronto, as there is an excellent chance that these will be missing, illegible or totally unenforceable.

 

David

[rhino666]

Sorry to bump this thread as it's a carbon copy of what I'm going through. Would I be right in saying that Debt Collection agencies just buy debts blindly and don't check the debt exists,and legally entitled collect ?

[themagician]

you got it!.