BAILIFF OVERCHARGE - semi result - BUT THEY LIED BIG TIME!! what to do next?!

[elsdon.sarah]

Was overcharged by bailiffs collecting council tax,

 

fired off a letter, to the company in question, the enforcement services association and the local council.

 

The bailiffs have offered back all they overcharged 'as a gesture of goodwill, in full and final settlement'

with a form for me to sign saying thats the end of it....council think this is great and said if necessary they'd follow up if i didn't get refund as promised....

 

HOWEVER

 

the letters are full of lies...

he claims to have levied on a car (gave reg to council and its not ours or any of our neighbours)

 

told council he made 2 visits and one with a van,

told me one visit and levied car parked on street outside....

 

he for some reason changed date on receipt from 16th to 18th (can see where hes changed figure!)

think its because he claims to have visited me on 16th.

 

 

the 18th is a sunday....i paid friday...arrgh so annoyed

 

anyway....he never visited.

 

he even claimed to council that he eventually 'met with the debtor on xxxx at xxxxx and collected payment in full'

 

he never knocked let alone met me

CONVERSED ON PHONE ONLY.

He threatened to come and i paid next day...

 

i feel pleased to have got the chance to get back the fees - but feel disgruntled that they lied and have got away with it....

 

what would you do? what are my options here?

Edited July 20, 2008 by elsdon.sarah

[tomtubby]

I have sent you a private message.

[freakyleaky]

Information passed on via private message should be viewed with caution as if it is incorrect it can't be corrected.

Also PM's can often encourage the use of profit making websites.

CAG does not encourage the use of PM's for advice.

If you do decide to pass on personal information to other members then please be aware of CAG policy on this!

[Saffronflowers]

Personally i would not let it lie there - i would ask to hve a meeting with the Head of Revenues, a senior member of the bailiff firm (which one is it by the way) and yourself where you can put them on the spot and ask for compensation on top of your fees. I know how stressful this is so you may well just want to let it lie. i twill depend on how much fight you have left in you!

 

Congrats by the way.

 

SFx

 

PS i would always rate TT's advice

[elsdon.sarah]

was/is rundles & co

 

not sure what to do, not sure how much energy taking it further may take - other things going on too

[kermit2482]

Bailiffs in general always use vans to the best of my knowledge, otherwise they cant charge van call fees!!

[elsdon.sarah]

Bailiffs in general always use vans to the best of my knowledge, otherwise they cant charge van call fees!!

 

except in this case he did not call at all... in letter to council, which the sent me a copy of, they said the bailiff visited twice and left relevant paperwork....nothing ever posted through except letters via ordinary post.

 

makes me angry.

[kermit2482]

except in this case he did not call at all... in letter to council, which the sent me a copy of, they said the bailiff visited twice and left relevant paperwork....nothing ever posted through except letters via ordinary post.

 

makes me angry.

 

 

Please dont get me wrong here my post was in general im not doubting your post.

[robin9342]

Bailiffs in general always use vans to the best of my knowledge, otherwise they cant charge van call fees!!

 

Of course, they can only charge van fees once a legal, valid levy has been made, not just for turning up in a van. And even then, the fees have to be reasonable.

[elsdon.sarah]

can they levy on someone else's car? a random vehicle parked on the road outside???

 

the vehicle reg is not one i recognise at all, even from neighbours cars.

 

the fees they charged were as follows:

Our fees

£42.50

 

Levy Fee

£49.00

 

Attendance / Van fee

£90.00

 

Waiting fee

£60.00

 

debit card fee

£2.00

 

their offer is to refund all charges except the £42.50

in full and final settlement.

on a 'without prejudice' form

 

would it be best to complain to court or enforcement services association...?

 

their letter to local council they obviously didn't realise i'd ever see...said

'the notes on the system show that the bailiff met with the debtor on his 2nd visit, and eventually obtained payment in full'

 

I never met with him!!!

 

so frustrating!

[kermit2482]

No a bailiff cant just levy on any old car, it has to be the persons whom is named on the liability order!!

[elsdon.sarah]

so.

1) if i take this further... what could i gain (not necessarily in terms of cash....i mean what could happen?)

2) what could i lose?!

 

am worried about not getting anything at all back.

 

3) i believe from reading others threads there is a time limit on taking action?

 

it'll be 3 months since i paid on 19th Aug.

 

PLEASE can someone advise me of my options here?

or i'll end up having to just take their offer and not be able to make others aware of what they are like.

 

i feel if noone says anything they'll just keep getting away with this.

 

feel very strongly about it.

[Michael Browne]

...

[Michael Browne]

See here:

Bailiffs: Complaint about Certified Bailiff - Consumer Wiki

 

Bailiffs: Make a Complaint About a Certified Bailiff - Consumer Wiki

[elsdon.sarah]

if i go ahead with a form 4 complaint, what info should i use as grounds of complaint?

[elsdon.sarah]

anyone???

[freakyleaky]

'the notes on the system show that the bailiff met with the debtor on his 2nd visit, and eventually obtained payment in full' I never met with him!!!

 

the vehicle reg is not one i recognise at all

a random vehicle parked on the road outside???"

 

I think you have pointed out a few things there that you can use as grounds for complaint.

[WWOW]

Was overcharged by bailiffs collecting council tax,

 

I have sent you a private message.

 

anyone???

 

Do you still need help?

 

You have plenty of recourse here. A Form 4 complaint against the bailiff, a criminal enquiry and compnesation claim from the Council or through Local Government Ombudsman. Let me know if you want me to knock up some letters for you.

[elsdon.sarah]

if i sign the without prejudice form does that mean i can't complain to council/about council?

[WWOW]

Signing that document benefits the bailiff so don’t sign or return that form just yet. I'm assuming (for now) it was bailiffs that approached you with an offer to settle without prejudice.

 

Complaining to Enforcement Services Association achieves nothing, they are a private Ltd company having a voluntary code of practice and have no authority at all. Send this letter to the bailiff - tweak as necessary.

 

Name of Bailiffs

Address 1

Address 2

Address 3

Address 4

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re: YOUR NAME + ANY REF: Refund of Fees £0.00

 

Thank you for your letter of [DATE] and received by me on [DATE] along with your form you have asked me to sign & return. I have now had an opportunity to seek advice and I am making further enquiries.

 

I am passing the matter to Police for committing offences under Sections to and 4 of the Fraud Act 2006 because you tried to obtain a money transfer from me under false pretences.

 

I am also making an official complaint addressed to the bailiffs certificating court for attempting to defraud me with fees which he is not entitled to, claiming to have made house visits he did not make and committing fee extortion by threatening to charge further fees if I fail to pay existing fees according to a deadline. I also understand the law doesn't provide for you to charge me 'van fees' and 'waiting time'.

 

I’ll be writing to the council and the Local Government ombudsman asking for compensation for receiving your bailiff who sought to defraud me with fees and pretending to be collecting unpaid council tax when no council tax is due, charging for visits he did not make and falsifying a date on a document after he realised it fell on a Sunday.

 

Once my enquiries are complete I'll seek further advice on whether I should sign your document.

 

This letter has been delivered to you by Royal Mail and I deem it good service on you by the ordinary course of post in the meaning of Section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978. It is therefore your responsibility and in your best interests this letter is handed to the relevant person within your organisation. I regret I am unable to discuss this matter by telephone or in person.

 

Yours Truly

 

 

YOUR NAME

 

Write to the council – they are liable for its bailiffs. Tweak as required.

 

Name of Council

Address 1

Address 2

Address 3

Address 4

 

[DATE]

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re: [COUNCIL TAX REF]: Visit by your bailiff on [DATE] Complaint Stage 1

 

I have had an opportunity to seek advice and I write on the understanding that case law rules an authority is liable for its bailiffs. I received a bailiff claiming to be acting under your instruction to collect (recover) unpaid council tax.

 

As I have no outstanding council tax and received threats of fee-charging and the bailiffs attempts to defraud me with bogus fees contrary to Section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006. I now ask you to pay me reasonable costs being the sum of £250 for:

 

a) Discovery of information and researching the legal background to the case and

 

b) Receiving an over-zealous bailiff making seeking to commit offences under the Fraud Act 2006.

 

For the avoidance of doubt I will automatically escalate this complaint to the Local Government Ombudsman in the absence of the above amount within fourteen date of the date of this latter.

 

This letter is delivered by Royal Mail and I deem it good service on you by the ordinary course of post under Section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978 and therefore it is your responsibility and in your own interests this letter is handed to the relevant person within your organisation. I regret I am unable to discuss this matter by telephone or in person.

 

Yours Truly

 

 

[YOUR NAME]

 

You can make an official complaint against the bailiff by completing a Form 4 which you can download from the Court Service website: http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/form4_0606.pdf

 

In the Details of Complaint – tweak as necessary.

 

On [DATE] I was visited by the bailiff collecting an unpaid council tax. He demanded £[AMOUNT] of which his fees were £[AMOUNT].

 

I had no outstanding council tax so I understood no money was due. The bailiff charged me fees for levying on somebody else’s car parked on a public road in the vicinity of my home on the date of his visit. He also charged me fees for visits he did not make and falsified a date on a document after realising it fell on a Sunday and I enclose a copy of the document.

 

No bailiff has entered my home or had contact with my goods and moved them from one place to another with a van.

 

I understand the bailiff’s fees shown on the document such as 'van fees' and 'waiting time' are inconsistent with prescribed law regulating bailiff’s fees, namely Regulation 45(2) of the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992. I understand defrauding people in this way is an offence under Section 2 and 4 of the Fraud Act 2006.

 

I tried to reach an amicable resolve with the bailiff and his firm but they became defensive and vexatious in nature and continued to make unrealistic demands of money and fees that are not lawfully due.

 

I ask that I am compensated the sum of £[AMOUNT PAID TO BAILIFF] and reasonable costs in receiving an over-zealous bailiff, seeking discovery of information and bringing this matter to court.

 

Send the form and a copy of the document with the amended date to the court that issued the bailiffs certificate along with a covering letter asking for them to be placed before a judge.

 

Print a hard-copy of Regulation 45(2) of the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 from http://www.england-legislation.hmso.gov.uk/si/si1992/Uksi_19920613_en_14.htm and make a copy of the bailiff’s receipt showing the fees and falsified date, and send them with the following letter to your local police station. Tweak as needed

 

 

To whom it may concern

Name of Police Station

Address line 1

Address line 2

Address line 3

Postcode

 

[DATE]

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re: Report of offences under Sections 2 and 4 of the Fraud Act 2006

 

I was visited on [DATE] by [NAME OF BAILIFF(S)] who I understand might be a bailiff from [NAME OF FIRM] collecting an unpaid Council tax. I enclose a document with a falsified date and list of fees that contradict the law prescribing fees for collecting this type of debt.

 

The bailiff charged me fees for visits he did not make then falsified the date on a document after he realised the date fell on a Sunday. He also levied on somebody’s car parked on a public road parked in the vicinity of my address and charged me fees thereto. I understand the law doesn't provide for bailiffs to charge me 'van fees' and 'waiting time'.

 

I was charged [£AMOUNT] as fees but I do not have any outstanding council tax and no money is due. I now understand I have been defrauded with bogus fees and further fees for visits the bailiff did not make and the enclosed document with a falsified date confirms culpable mens rea. I confirm no baliff has enetered my home, had contact with my goods or moved them with a van.

 

I tried to seek a sensible resolve with the bailiff but they have become defensive and vexatious in nature and continued to demand money with threats of fee extortion. I now understand defrauding me in this way commits a criminal offence under Sections 2 and 4 of the Fraud Act 2006.

 

To enable police to perform a thorough and objective criminal investigation, I enclose the following:

 

1. A copy of the prescribed fees for bailiffs collecting this type of debt as published by the Office of Public Sector Information.

 

2. A document left by the bailiff confirming over-charged fees contradicting the above legislation and having a falsified date.

 

I understand the correct fees should have been [£AMOUNT] when legitimate unpaid council tax is due. I am happy to stand as a prosecution witness and provide a statement for the proceedings and you can contact me on [PHONE NUMBER] to arrange this. Meanwhile, please provide me with a crime reference number.

 

The approach taken by the bailiff and his firm indicates they are routinely and systematically defrauding people en-masse in this way and this incident is not a one-off. I ask that any personal feelings you may have on reporting bailiffs for committing criminal offences must not cloud anyone’s judgment in this matter.

 

Yours Faithfully

 

 

[YOUR NAME]

 

Sometimes police can be awkward when handling situations like this. If you are fobbed off with excuses then write down the police officers name & rank and quickly escalate your complaint to the Independent Police Complaints Commission http://www.ipcc.gov.uk/index/contact-us.htm.

 

Independent Police Complaints Commission

Address line 1

Address line 2

Address line 3

Postcode

 

[DATE]

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re: Complaint against Police Officer(s) [NAME AND RANK]

 

I enclose a copy of a letter and enclosures sent to [NAME OF STATION] police reporting offenses under the Fraud Act 2006.

 

The police responded saying they are unable to perform a criminal investigation and say [it does not fit the criteria for the CPS to prosecute / there is insufficient evidence / it’s a civil matter / deliberately interpreting or subverting a point of law as to avoid a criminal investigation / OTHER]. I now understand the responding police officer [NAME & RANK] has made a factual error in their interpretation of the law.

 

I place this complaint before the IPCC understanding the officer may be professionally incompetent, and their failure to report a crime where sufficient evidence is available may be guilty under common law of Perverting the Court of Justice and Assisting an Offender contrary to Section 4 of the Criminal Law Act 1967.

 

I respectfully ask this matter is investigated by police objectively and professionally, and a full and thorough report is passed to the CPS without further delay.

 

Yours Faithfully

 

 

YOUR NAME

 

If this still doesn’t trump up the results then send all the above letters & documents to your MP and ask why the police are covering for a bailiff who had committing criminal offences in the course of his employ.

[elsdon.sarah]

WOW!

thanks for your help, wish me luck!

[tomtubby]

There was a similar case to this in Court 2 weeks ago and the bailiff has had his certificate and bailiff bond cancelled. Because of the seriousness of the complaint there is ongoing action and for this reason nothing more can be discussed about the particular case.

 

It was for this reason that I sent a private message to elsdon.sarah to ask the name of the bailiff and the company he works for in case it was the same company.

 

I did not receive a response to my message.

 

................................

 

 

The following is from our website:

 

Bailiffs's "levying" upon a vehicle not owned by you.

 

This is now also becoming commonplace with "less reputable" bailiffs, in particular when collecting for unpaid council tax.

 

How it works is this:

 

The bailiff will make a visit to your premises with "a view to levying distress" (this is the legal term). He can charge just £24.50 if this is the 1st visit and you are not at home and no levy is made. In order to generate more income for him and his company,the bailiff will instead post a form through the door to say that he has attended and "levied" on a vehicle either on the driveway or on the road outside. The bailiff will then charge both an additional "walking possession" fee and a "levy fee". The bailiff knows that there is case law that provides that he can "assume" that the car is yours and that it is up to you....not him..... to prove otherwise.

[elsdon.sarah]

tomtubby you have mail