Parcelforce clearance fee's (C&E duty etc)

[perplexity]

But my question is if Parcelforce are adding charges for contracts that are not in place,

Can we add our own fee for collecting or a fee for admin for them cashing our cheques.

 

To say that it is not a contract is to say that you can't be forced to pay the charge if you would rather not receive the goods, so the same would go for a fee you propose to charge: For as long as Parcelforce refuse to pay your fee you would not receive the goods.

 

In legal terms, the contract with the sender to deliver the mail is already fulfilled, the same as any other occasion where mail is presented to an addressee who would rather not accept the delivery.

 

P.S.

 

The terms are in effect a unilateral contract, which means that the offer is defined by Parcelforce, to be accepted by an addressee who so sees fit, so the contract is concluded when the offer is accepted,:

 

http://www.parcelforce.com/portal/pw/content1;jsessionid=1QDB0Z2QAHTPQFB2IGVFEOQUHRA0WQ2K?mediaId=26100661&catId=2500042

 

8-)

Edited February 6, 2011 by perplexity
P.S.

[Fenris]

To say that it is not a contract is to say that you can't be forced to pay the charge if you would rather not receive the goods, so the same would go for a fee you propose to charge: For as long as Parcelforce refuse to pay your fee you would not receive the goods.

 

In legal terms, the contract with the sender to deliver the mail is already fulfilled, the same as any other occasion where mail is presented to an addressee who would rather not accept the delivery.

 

8-)

 

But the big sticking point here is your statement of: "

In legal terms, the contract with the sender to deliver the mail is already fulfilled, the same as any other occasion where mail is presented to an addressee who would rather not accept the delivery" which is incorrect. The contract is only fullfilled when the item is delivered to the addresee, something which doesn't happen when one has a "fee" to pay. In order for the contract to be properly fullfilled by Royal Fail I have to PAY THEM to deliver the goods for which I have already pad a delvery charge. We're not refusing delivery, RM are refusing to deliver until charges THEY have deemed in order, are paid. Ransom seems to fit here.

[perplexity]

The contract is with the sender of the mail, so the policy with regard to import duty is in effect a part of that.

 

In other words:

 

If we receive a parcel we will pay any relevant import duty, excise duty and VAT to HM Revenue and Customs. Before the import parcel can be released to the recipient, we require the recipient to repay this sum, together with our own clearance fee, details of which will be sent in a letter.

 

In so far as that is fulfilled, they are thus in the clear.

 

P.S.

 

If you pause to think it through, this is actually a service provided to the sender, similar to cash on delivery. The sender would otherwise have to pay the duty in advance and with alternative sorts of service may do so.

 

You could just as well say that a cash on delivery service holds the buyer to ransom, which of course it does. It is the seller, not the courier who wants to be sure that the money is paid before the buyer gets the goods.

 

Another sort of service (some from the USA for instance) insists that the goods are delivered as usual and the sender is made to pay the duty when a buyer refuses to do so. With that sort of system in place in Europe most of what is available across the borders because of the European Union would simply not be available. A large proportion of online sellers in the USA refuse to send abroad because of this.

 

8-)

Edited February 6, 2011 by perplexity
P.S.

[hinge]

So as i look at it there is no contract with the buyer/receiver . if one was not to have the internet they could not read any information regarding postal charges.

Thus it must be stated by the seller which has never been mentioned to me.

 

So if i got them to deliver the package without the handling charges and invoice me after (just paying vat/duty) i get the parcel .

But when they send the invoice for their charges i could send a cheque with a covering letter stating cashing this cheque will promt a admin fee of blah blah ( equal to their charge) and doing so will be acceptance of the contract.

Then wouldnt it be down to them if they cash it or not.

[perplexity]

Then wouldnt it be down to them if they cash it or not.

 

The same applies.

 

Your proposal is therefore a unilateral contract, to be accepted or refused by Parcelforce, so before they conclude the contract by cashing your cheque, for as long as they prefer to take no notice, they are bound to nothing but the contract with the sender.

 

For a contract to exist there has to be the mutual consideration. Something of value must pass from both of the parties to the contract, to each other.

 

8-)

[hinge]

Ill just pay it . will be easier but i do feel hidden charges are more of the line of back street traders or loan sharks. and they should realy think about it harder.

 

I have no problem with the likes of tnt , They get the package to me asap and invoice me after which i pay.

But with parcelforce i feel im paying for them to hold it up.

 

But 1st and last time i use ems / parcelforce express 24 . cough cough 24 days

[perplexity]

You have probably not yet bothered to study TNTs terms and conditions.

 

TNT delivers the mail directly to the addressee (without the ransom) because it is one of the companies I mentioned before, where the sender has to pay when a receiver refuses to cough up:

 

We may in some countries make advance payments of import duty, taxes, penalties or have to post bond on behalf of the importer and where this additional service is provided a local administration fee will be charged to the receiver and you will be liable for this charge if he or she does not pay us.

http://www.tnt.com/express/en_gb/site/terms_and_conditions.html

 

8-)

[hinge]

No i dont study terms on postal companies. my hobby is using the items i order

 

But as i said tnt play fair and delivery the item in a timely manner so i pay there invoice in the same way.

 

I dont even mind them losing my parcel every so often they are polite and do there best to recover whats lost etc.

 

I would be the same with Parcelforce but the delay is something i just dont like so i feel unhappy about the service fee. I even get the feeling they dont update the tracking when they should and blame it on customs so they can have time to get letters out.

 

But its cool i just wont use them again its no problem and i wont buy from a retailer that uses them.

If more people just stopped using them in time thibgs would have to change

[dragonkeeper]

 

 

I would of thought that this 'Chicken' before or after 'Egg'

would of died of old age by now.

 

Its that old that the "Gold" tv channel have bought the rights to show it.

 

Buzby nice to see you have not give up yet

 

 

 

 

dk

[perplexity]

I would of thought that this 'Chicken' before or after 'Egg'

 

It is a question of when the contract to finally deliver the mail to the addressee is concluded.

 

Parcelforce undertake to deliver a package to the addresses if and when the handling charge is paid, and do so because there is no way to force the addressee to pay were they rather to deliver and wait to be paid. Parcelforce is therefore obliged to deliver, if and when the contract to do so is concluded.

 

TNT undertake to deliver whether or not the charge is already paid, because an enforceable contract with the sender exists, whereby the sender already undertook to pay if the recipient fails to do so.

 

Which of the two ways to go about it gets to be the way it is done is eventually a question of market forces or the practicality of it. Parcelforce deliver on behalf of local postal services all over the Word, literally, so are not in a position to make the sender pay if the receiver would rather not. It would cost too much to administrate and fail too often.

 

I would also point out that the handling charge in some parts of the World is astronomical, compared to what happens in the UK, so if you reckon you're better of with TNT's arrangement you may yet live to regret it.

 

[hinge]

My next question is..

 

My package was sent ems hong kong which i guess is part of parcelforce . the service was express 24

 

Ive tried looking but i cant find the delivery times they have to keep to ( not including customs holding )

 

 

I ask because i found something out today.

 

I phone parcelforce local delivery office and asked why has my tracking still not changed.

They said sorry still with customs nothing we can do.

We only have the 2 tracking details since in the country the 31st/jan 1st/feb ( there was no 1st of feb on my tracking list)

 

I said what is the tracking for the 1st.

They said erm erm sorry my mistake i was looking at the wrong screen there is no 1st/feb.

 

I ended the call thinking ill wait another day.

 

After i thought no ill phone customs, After taking ages getting through i asked when would thay be sorting out the lot of parcels that include mine.

They asked my tracking number and informed me that it had been released vat / duty added and passed back to parcelforce on the 1st

 

So have they lost my parcel and not letting on or just holding up the parcel so they can get the invoice out to me.

 

Either way it does'nt look good

 

i smell something fishey

 

[perplexity]

This is the other old chestnut, the international tracking of parcels and the signed for delivery that you might have thought you paid for but may or may not happen.

 

There is a simple reason why it does not look so good: ... It is not so good.

 

The problem is mainly that the tracking systems and bar codes they use in the different countries may or may not be compatible, and if you're guessing which of the two is more likely you are probably right.

 

I am going to have a cup of coffee now. This is far too depressing to want to think about.

 

[hinge]

LOL you enjoy your cup of tea. Its all new news for me but for you i guess its not so exciting lol cough cough.

 

I did fianlly get my answer from PF they said its 24 hours after customs release the package and not including any over sea's shipping.

 

So they are late. ill make them ditch the admin fee for me not complaining about the very late delivery . thats if i ever get it

 

Hmm tea i think ill do the same.

 

Enjoy and thanks

[adastratech]

Here we have another one:-

 

Ordered a small quantity of parts from the states a few weeks ago and when the package arrived, the quantity was 68, when the order was for 75. Value around $15.00 total. Got in touch with the vendor, profuse apologies and sent me another 10 to make up for the shortfall and goodwill .

 

Card through the door today and off to the local office to collect, paid cheque and was handed the jiffy bag. Package value on bag shown as $2.50, more or less correct.

 

Customs Label Reads:

 

Import Duty: 0.00

Excise Duty: 0.00

Vat: 6.25

RM Fee: 8.00

-------------------

Total: 14.25

 

So, query this, but local office said get in touch with rm and no, you can't have cheque back, nor will we send package back to mount pleasant.

 

Am waiting for a couple of other items as well, otherwise would have refused to pay had I known what was in the package.

 

After 6 minutes wading through the treacle which is rm's phone menu system, managed to speak to real person, who tells me that I must get in touch with hmrc. Call them, who tell me that I should send the package back to uk border agency at mount pleasant. Then sent email via rm website to the business section, quoting ref number and telling them that the cheque will be stopped.

 

Will they ever get their act together ?...

 

Regards,

 

Chris

[cactuskid]

another example of how stupid the import tax system is for consumers. It just doesn't work unless you are VAT registered and equipped - as required by legislation btw

[perplexity]

another example of how stupid the import tax system is for consumers.

 

 

Really?

 

An example of the stupidity of a consumer is what I would call it.

 

It is in fact possible to claim a duty relief for goods repaired or replaced by a seller:

 

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageImport_InfoGuides&propertyType=document&id=HMCE_CL_001183

 

8)

[cactuskid]

yeah but in a so called 'free trade environment' have you ever tried doing that?

[perplexity]

yeah but in a so called 'free trade environment' have you ever tried doing that?

 

 

I have no idea of what the 'free trade environment' is supposed to allude to.

 

We got a refund from HMRC. That was not at all so much of a problem.

 

The refund of a courier's handling charge may not be so much of a foregone conclusion but we didn't think it worth the time to spend, so made no claim .

 

8-)

[cactuskid]

so there is nothing to gripe about then. You get refund from HMRC etc and I do not get charged anything at all when importing non commercial packages. Everyones happy

[perplexity]

so there is nothing to gripe about then. You get refund from HMRC etc and I do not get charged anything at all when importing non commercial packages. Everyones happy

 

 

In my experience it is far from the case that everyone is happy, because the definition of what it is to count as "non commercial" is so frequently misapprehended.

 

If you want to look it up, the Council Directive 2006/79/EC covers the exemption from taxes of imports of small consignments of goods of a non-commercial character from third countries.

 

8-)

[Fenris]

I posted this in another thread but will post it here too. Like I said before, the extortion is being enacted by HMRC and PF are simply being rewarded the processing fee for their part in the [problem]. VAT is a way of extracting money from you via the manufacturer who has commercial liabilities so can be taxed. You as a personal buyer are not VAT registered so have no tax duties to perform. You have never paid VAT and will never pay VAT unless you are VAT registered. The VAT you pay at a shop is not your VAT, it is the shop keepers VAT that you are forced to pay by the price being inflated. That is very important to understand.

 

PF or HMRC cannot charge you VAT personally because there would then be no VAT reciept or invoice. You can not be issued a VAT receipt or invoice because you are not commercially liable so are out of that game. So you have not won anything until you realise that being charged VAT for your delivery is like paying road tax for a push bike! You are not liable!

 

 

Royal Mail sent a very hefty pile of defense paperwork to the court in response to my initial claim so that stuff about the cost of attending is crap. They did not even need to attend court.

 

Chris

 

I've decided to send RM a letter today asking for the money they've taken from me back. I hope I'll get a letter like the above in due course!

 

Yeah, I know the pro-fee people will jump all over me, but, meh. If I get a result, what do I care?

[perplexity]

Yeah, I know the pro-fee people will jump all over me, but, meh. If I get a result, what do I care?

 

 

If you really want to know, if you are really so sure of yourself you should take it to court, to prove the point.

 

If you lose and have to pay the costs, then you will know if you care.

 

8)

[Fenris]

I've fought RM through the Small Claims Court before and won, so I'm not scared of them. Besides, I'm on IS, won't cost me a penny so I litterally have nothing to loose.

 

Frankly I don't really care what people here think of me for standing up to the bullies, I'm only posting so that others like me who feel the "fee" is extortionate can see that RM can be fought, that we don't have to take this lying down and that, if you don't fight for what you think is right and fair, you'll be walked over for the rest of your life.

 

It worked for cactuskid, it may work for me too.

 

As I said, I don't care what you think of me if I win or if I loose; you're someone on a forum I'll never meet. How shallow must someone be if the opinions of total strangers affect them?

[perplexity]

 

That's rich.

 

With "nothing to lose" you're depending, a parasite who lives on the back of the bully at the expense of the rest of us, not "standing up" for yourself at all.

 

[Fenris]

 

That's rich.

 

With "nothing to lose" you're depending, a parasite who lives on the back of the bully at the expense of the rest of us, not "standing up" for yourself at all.

 

 

Again, only someone with no self worth would care what someone on a forum thinks of them. *Shrugs*

 

Please feel free to fling insults; you're the one showing yourself for your true colours here. Getting personal and calling me a parasite just goes to show you in your true light.

 

And I'm depending... what? Sorry, that makes no sense.