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[citizenB]

If there are missing statements - make an application on an N244 for an order that they supply them - explain on the N244 what your personal circumstances are and ask for an order without a hearing

 

This N244, seems to be quite versatile

 

Perhaps if there is anything else missing PF you can pop in one form for the lot

[pompeyfaith]

Yes ill do that and send the EX160 with it too

[I've got no money]

Thank You all,

 

I will get this week end out of the way first then start collating all my info.

 

Shadow thanks for the offer the reason the post is long is because Optima have made so many errors with this case its unbelievable.

 

Late filling of documents to the court and me,to which they think by just apologising to the court everything will be fine.

 

Unfortunately in legal terms so long as they have complied by now everything is fine

 

Not complying with my CPR request until end of December 08 which was 2 weeks before summary judgement so denying me my right to submit a full defence.

 

It's now May 2009 - providing they have complied in full then there is no issue

 

Applying for the summary judgement in november 08 before they had supplied me my documents.

 

Again - that's water under the bridge - presumably you were awarded costs

 

Falsifying the Default Notice which they are in contempt of court for as they did not supply the court the original DN but the fraudulent one which also does not comply.

 

I wouldn't worry about the contempt issue - just concentrate on the fact that it is a fabricated forgery

 

Bring the claim to court on an agreement they now say in a witness statement is not an agreement but a pre-contractual application form.

 

That of course is one of the most important points and goes to enforceability

 

and finally if both DN do not comply this case should not even be in the court system.

 

I'm not sure if they can actually serve two DN - PT and Viscount Stair have an argument that I haven't got my head round yet that says you can only serve one

 

Do you all agree I have plenty to go on

 

Regards

 

PF

 

I've made some comments on your list in bold italics

I think that you need to concentrate on the issues at trial rather than, unless it directly relates to the actual trial, what has happened up to now.

 

IMO - the first thing you need to do is negotiate a proper case summary

 

The other observation is does the claim involve account charges - if so they're arguably likely to invalidate the DN

[pompeyfaith]

Again - that's water under the bridge - presumably you were awarded costs

 

Nope no costs

 

Account charges yes and a whole load of PPI charges for which the box is clearly not ticked.

[pompeyfaith]

And Thats just it they have not served two Default notices as they are both dated 14th April 08 but the second one rectifies the breach date and breach clause plus it has no company details on.

[underdog13]

I thought they could issue a second DN if the account was still open?

If they have terminated however, it's game over, according to the superb and much missed surfaceagentx20.

 

IGNM - which thread is the DN issue debated between PT and Viscount Stair? Sorry for that mini hi-jack PF:)

[pompeyfaith]

Underdog so if that is the case my account must be terminated as in my case they did not issue a second one but forged the first to make it look legit only that one aint ether lol

[underdog13]

oops sorry PF, didn't see your post 932 (cross posting) - of course they didn't serve you with two DNs; I remember now the second DN was an invention of theirs.

 

Do I understand it correctly from your docs on the previous page that they are adding legal costs to your account? Isn't it for the judge to award costs?

[underdog13]

Underdog so if that is the case my account must be terminated as in my case they did not issue a second one but forged the first to make it look legit only that one aint ether lol

 

Lol, an (alleged:rolleyes:) forgery to correct a faulty DN that is also faulty:D

 

They'd be funny if they weren't such a pain in the posterior;)

[pompeyfaith]

Yes they did underdog before charging off the account they put two court fees on first which optima is charging me for too

[underdog13]

Yes they did underdog before charging off the account they put two court fees on first which optima is charging me for too

 

How very, very dare they! I'd bring that to the judges attention too - hope he's hacked off with them for being so presumptuous:mad:

[I've got no money]

Nope no costs

 

Account charges yes and a whole load of PPI charges for which the box is clearly not ticked.

 

What was the costs order then - was it costs in the case or no order

 

I know that Rankine says that the issue of default charges doesn't affect the validity of a DN BUT there is a counter argument - in Rankine the DN was issued pre - April 2006 so you could argue that the Creditor may not have known BUT for all DN's issued after April 2006 the Creditors knew that the Default charges were unlawful - April 2006 was when the OFT produced its' report saying that they were unlawful - so in this case its' not a creditor acting in ignorance - they are acting in bad faith.

[pompeyfaith]

All court costs so far have been reserved

[I've got no money]

I thought they could issue a second DN if the account was still open?

If they have terminated however, it's game over, according to the superb and much missed surfaceagentx20.

 

IGNM - which thread is the DN issue debated between PT and Viscount Stair? Sorry for that mini hi-jack PF:)

 

I don't know - I just know that I've read it somewhere...

[I've got no money]

Costs reserved is fine - you need to make sure that you have a schedule setting out all of your costs etc - If I were you (and you don't have to) I would serve it on them the day before the hearing - don't forget to factor in time estimates for the actual hearing

[pompeyfaith]

Anyone know if there is a costs order template on here

[I've got no money]

Anyone know if there is a costs order template on here

 

I'm not sure what you mean...

[alanalana]

hey PF try this out for costs...

 

Unreasonable Court Costs Orders - About Small Claims (UK)

 

aa

 

not sure if this is what you want but google turned this up.

 

have a look here too....

 

http://www.justice.gov.uk/civil/procrules_fin/pdf/preview/cpr_update_49_amnd_3_si_20083327.pdf

Edited May 16, 2009 by alanalana

[StayingCalm]

Hi PF

 

This is what x20 posted about costs after Discontinuance.

 

Re: arrow global receivables/cope's solicitors Post No. 89

I have prepared a draft bill of costs for detailed assessment and draft notice of commencement. Both are attached in pdf format.

 

In drawing the bill I have tried to keep it as uncomplicated as possible whilst seeking to demonstrate how to maximise the amount which might be allowed. The documents may be of general application in litigation to include for example, dealing with a costs claim after successfully obtaining an order setting aside a Statutory Demand, after making all such necessary modifications to suit.

 

The bill begins with a narrative dealing with the nature of the case and the complexity of it as I imagined it may have appeared to the LiP. My imagination should not be treated as a statement of how the complexity in truth appeared to the LiP.

 

Next is a chronological statement of the steps taken in the case as they will appear on the court file. I have not bothered to go through the entire thread to establish what occurred on what day. The LiP will have to do that.

 

I have included provision for time spent which has been charged at an hourly rate of £9.25 in accordance with The Litigants in Person (Costs and Expenses) Act 1975. I can not stress enough that where time is included this is only a statement of time for the purpose of demonstrating how the figures would appear in the bill. My statement of time is not an estimate of time. Only the LiP can say how much time was spent and my statement of time may be an under- statement or an over-statement, I would not know.

 

It is worth pointing out however that the court will recognise that a LiP will most likely spend more time in a case than a solicitor. The relevant Rule is CPR 48.6 with guidance appearing in The Supreme Court Costs Office Guide (COG) Practice Direction at CPR PD 48 COG 22.4 and .5.

 

The question for the Judge considering the bill is if this case had been conducted by a solicitor, what would that solicitor’s reasonable total charge have been for doing that work? Having arrived at that hypothetical figure, the costs judge will assess the bill but disallow whatever the total bill comes to from exceeding two-thirds of the hypothetical figure.

 

It seems to me the hypothetical solicitor may have spent say 6 hours dealing with all the work set out in the bill from beginning to end. At an average charge of £150.00 per hour, that produces a hypothetical figure of £900.00. In other words therefore, if the Judge held my view about what the hypothetical solicitor may have charged, the amount to be allowed to the LiP ought not to exceed £600.00. As you will see, my draft works out at £573.50.

 

What to do Next

Complete the bill adapting the narrative to your personal experience in terms of actual work done and actual time spent. Feel free to add to it where I have not imagined work which you actually did. Insert the dates and sign and date the bill.

 

Next complete Form N252 available from the HMCS website here.

 

You will ned to complete the court and party details in the box on the RHS.

 

The draft N242 I have completed gives the position as if my figures were used. Where the total used in the bill is to be different, put that figure in the first figure box where N252 says: ‘The bill totals £xxx.xx’. (figure [1])

 

Next, add £300.00 to figure [1] and put whatever this figure in the next box where N252 says:

the full amount payable (including the assessment fee) will be £xxx.xx). (figure [2]).

 

Next insert a date in the box before which is written: ‘You must serve your points of dispute by’. This date will be a date being not less than 21 days after the date on which your opponent receives the bill and the N252. In practice, add 25 days to the date on which you post the bill out to your opponent. If that date should fall on a Saturday or Sunday, insert the date for the following Monday.

 

Next fill out the box which provides a name and address at which the opposition may deliver any response to the bill of costs. The response will be entitled ‘Points of Dispute’. I don’t imagine one will arrive and if one does, how to deal with it will be dealt with in a later advice.

 

Next, leave the box beginning: ‘I certify that I have also served’ blank

 

Next, at the very end of the bill is a third figure box before which is written ‘If I have not received your points of dispute by the above date, I will ask the court to issue a default costs certificate

for the full amount of my bill (see above*) plus fixed costs and court fee in the total amount of £’ . In this box take the figure [1] and add £45.00 to it. This is the figure which goes in this box (figure [3]).

 

Print the N252 off, sign and date it.

 

Next, send the bill and the N252 off to the opposition’s solicitor.

 

After Having Sent the Bill and N252.

Make a note when the 25 days will be up.

 

I would expect the opposition to make contact with you in an attempt to settle the question of your costs. So as to avoid hassle and heartache, I would be prepared to settle at anything which came to about one third rather than two thirds of the hypothetical solicitor’s bill. On my example, that would be around £300.00 plus the court fee. You may want to settle at something less just to be shot of it.

 

If any offer comes in which is wildly below £300.00 post to this site for advice. I would imagine the opposition will be very keen to settle since objecting will tie them into expense they will wish to avoid and any savings will soon be wiped out by employing a solicitor to deal with the objections.

 

When the cheque comes in, make a donation to CAG.

 

If you have not heard from the opposition by when the 25 days are up you will be entitled to apply to the court for a default costs certificate. When that moment arrives, post here.

 

Any queries, just ask.

 

x20

Attached FilesDraft LiP bill of costs for detailed assessment.pdf (56.6 KB, 157 views)Draft Notice of Commencement.pdf (29.9 KB, 111 views)

 

There's also more usfull info in other posts on this thread.

 

Regards

SC

Edited May 16, 2009 by StayingCalm

[supasnooper]

Good links from alanalana

 

 

Maybe worth having a look at the link below which Staying Calm was referring to, which may give you an idea of how to set your costs out - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-1701510.html

Edited May 16, 2009 by supasnooper
addition

[miss muppet]

PF, in my case, if its of any assistance, I was able to show the judge from the statements that interest had been added when our friends were in default of section 78(1). The cheeky blighters had even added legal fees and costs on one of the statements too. Also as we all know 78(6) prohibits enforcement of the agreement in curcumstances where section 78(1) request has not been complied with. A default notice is 'enforcement'. The default notice says it is. Schedule 2 Reg 4 compels the use of the following statement and its words indicate that what would follow would also be 'enforcement': "IF THE ACTION REQUIRED BY THIS NOTICE IS TAKEN BEFORE THE DATE SHOWN NO FURTHER ENFORCEMENT ACTION WILL BE TAKEN IN RESPECT OF THE BREACH".

 

In my case also, they said that the change of account numbers was due to charge off but in a reply to the ICO they stated that it was due to a system update.

 

Its a good idea to send in the schedule of costs the day before, I didn't, Optima Legal did but the Judge was kind enough to deal with my costs on the day.

 

Well done, dealing with this on top of everything else that has happened.

[pompeyfaith]

miss muppet i too have legal fees and costs on my last statement im still trying to find out if this is allowed

[pompeyfaith]

thanks alan staying calm supersnooper 4 the interesting posts plenty more to get my head around

[I've got no money]

Hi PF

 

This is what x20 posted about costs after Discontinuance.

 

 

Re: arrow global receivables/cope's solicitors Post No. 89

I have prepared a draft bill of costs for detailed assessment and draft notice of commencement. Both are attached in pdf format.

 

In drawing the bill I have tried to keep it as uncomplicated as possible whilst seeking to demonstrate how to maximise the amount which might be allowed. The documents may be of general application in litigation to include for example, dealing with a costs claim after successfully obtaining an order setting aside a Statutory Demand, after making all such necessary modifications to suit.

 

The bill begins with a narrative dealing with the nature of the case and the complexity of it as I imagined it may have appeared to the LiP. My imagination should not be treated as a statement of how the complexity in truth appeared to the LiP.

 

Next is a chronological statement of the steps taken in the case as they will appear on the court file. I have not bothered to go through the entire thread to establish what occurred on what day. The LiP will have to do that.

 

I have included provision for time spent which has been charged at an hourly rate of £9.25 in accordance with The Litigants in Person (Costs and Expenses) Act 1975. I can not stress enough that where time is included this is only a statement of time for the purpose of demonstrating how the figures would appear in the bill. My statement of time is not an estimate of time. Only the LiP can say how much time was spent and my statement of time may be an under- statement or an over-statement, I would not know.

 

It is worth pointing out however that the court will recognise that a LiP will most likely spend more time in a case than a solicitor. The relevant Rule is CPR 48.6 with guidance appearing in The Supreme Court Costs Office Guide (COG) Practice Direction at CPR PD 48 COG 22.4 and .5.

 

The question for the Judge considering the bill is if this case had been conducted by a solicitor, what would that solicitor’s reasonable total charge have been for doing that work? Having arrived at that hypothetical figure, the costs judge will assess the bill but disallow whatever the total bill comes to from exceeding two-thirds of the hypothetical figure.

 

It seems to me the hypothetical solicitor may have spent say 6 hours dealing with all the work set out in the bill from beginning to end. At an average charge of £150.00 per hour, that produces a hypothetical figure of £900.00. In other words therefore, if the Judge held my view about what the hypothetical solicitor may have charged, the amount to be allowed to the LiP ought not to exceed £600.00. As you will see, my draft works out at £573.50.

 

What to do Next

Complete the bill adapting the narrative to your personal experience in terms of actual work done and actual time spent. Feel free to add to it where I have not imagined work which you actually did. Insert the dates and sign and date the bill.

 

Next complete Form N252 available from the HMCS website here.

 

You will ned to complete the court and party details in the box on the RHS.

 

The draft N242 I have completed gives the position as if my figures were used. Where the total used in the bill is to be different, put that figure in the first figure box where N252 says: ‘The bill totals £xxx.xx’. (figure [1])

 

Next, add £300.00 to figure [1] and put whatever this figure in the next box where N252 says:

the full amount payable (including the assessment fee) will be £xxx.xx). (figure [2]).

 

Next insert a date in the box before which is written: ‘You must serve your points of dispute by’. This date will be a date being not less than 21 days after the date on which your opponent receives the bill and the N252. In practice, add 25 days to the date on which you post the bill out to your opponent. If that date should fall on a Saturday or Sunday, insert the date for the following Monday.

 

Next fill out the box which provides a name and address at which the opposition may deliver any response to the bill of costs. The response will be entitled ‘Points of Dispute’. I don’t imagine one will arrive and if one does, how to deal with it will be dealt with in a later advice.

 

Next, leave the box beginning: ‘I certify that I have also served’ blank

 

Next, at the very end of the bill is a third figure box before which is written ‘If I have not received your points of dispute by the above date, I will ask the court to issue a default costs certificate

for the full amount of my bill (see above*) plus fixed costs and court fee in the total amount of £’ . In this box take the figure [1] and add £45.00 to it. This is the figure which goes in this box (figure [3]).

 

Print the N252 off, sign and date it.

 

Next, send the bill and the N252 off to the opposition’s solicitor.

 

After Having Sent the Bill and N252.

Make a note when the 25 days will be up.

 

I would expect the opposition to make contact with you in an attempt to settle the question of your costs. So as to avoid hassle and heartache, I would be prepared to settle at anything which came to about one third rather than two thirds of the hypothetical solicitor’s bill. On my example, that would be around £300.00 plus the court fee. You may want to settle at something less just to be shot of it.

 

If any offer comes in which is wildly below £300.00 post to this site for advice. I would imagine the opposition will be very keen to settle since objecting will tie them into expense they will wish to avoid and any savings will soon be wiped out by employing a solicitor to deal with the objections.

 

When the cheque comes in, make a donation to CAG.

 

If you have not heard from the opposition by when the 25 days are up you will be entitled to apply to the court for a default costs certificate. When that moment arrives, post here.

 

Any queries, just ask.

 

x20

Attached FilesDraft LiP bill of costs for detailed assessment.pdf (56.6 KB, 157 views)Draft Notice of Commencement.pdf (29.9 KB, 111 views)

 

There's also more usfull info in other posts on this thread.

 

Regards

SC

 

 

Hang on a second folks

 

You only go through the detailed assessment procedure if there is an Order for detailed assessment. Which comes at the conclusion of the trial and you do within three months AFTER the trial

 

What I would do at this stage is prepare a schedule of my costs and tell the Judge that I am an LIP and try to persuade him/her to order summary assessment - that is order the costs on the day - that Costs Order would be payable in 14 days

 

I would try to avoid going down the detailed assessment route - cos its' a nightmare

[pt2537]

I don't know - I just know that I've read it somewhere...

The 1974 Act allows for a second default to be issued, in certain circumstances, in fact you could over the course of an account have 100s of default notices issued if they are remedied