Joint account, claim issued, Help.

[questioning]

Hi, Hope everyone is OK, Well all was quiet but DG's have raised there ugly heads!!!

I have been offline, no PC for about 3 months, only just got back on, its been a real pain and it was not my fault either which made it worse.

I have just received a letter from DG sols, headed "Without predjudice save as to costs" asking me to withdraw my defence and pay up!!!

Its been 5 months and this is the first I've heard from them.

They have sent a print out of the default notice they say they sent,(I did not receive this nor did my hubby.) they also sent the credit agreement for the loan element of this claim.

Their letter was dated 26 jan, although I only received it yesterday, so they have not given me much time to respond, they want a responce by 12th feb, please read the letter, link below.

 

Can any one out there help me with ANY advice?thoughts on this? responce to this letter? Please, I have NO intention of signing what they want me to sign.

In my defence i did ask that if they produced the doc's i'd requested then could I amend my defence, (i sent a slightly edited version to what is posted in my thread)

 

 

It really peeves me that this debt is made up of bank charges mostly and if I had known I could have re-claimed them, then it would pretty much wipe the debt out.

Ok here are links to what they sent me. Copy of CCA doesn't look like the one we signed.......

1st page of dg's letter http://i658.photobucket.com/albums/uu306/DGsols/upload%20to%20cag/WithoutPfromDGsolsresized2ndpage002.jpg

2nd page of same letter http://i658.photobucket.com/albums/uu306/DGsols/upload%20to%20cag/WithoutPfromDGsols2ndpage004.jpg

1st page of Default Notice.

http://i658.photobucket.com/albums/uu306/DGsols/upload%20to%20cag/defaultnotice-1.jpg

 

2nd page of Default Notice.

http://i658.photobucket.com/albums/uu306/DGsols/upload%20to%20cag/2ndpageofDN-1.jpg

CCA (only part off it, but the main part, depends on judge with this one!)

http://i658.photobucket.com/albums/uu306/DGsols/upload%20to%20cag/creditaggreementloanbbbbb001-1.jpg

Edited March 27, 2009 by questioning
oops left account num in, i will just edit it

[42man]

Was the default compliant ?

 

Have a look at this

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/140032-hsbc-county-court-claim-2.html

[questioning]

thanks 42 man, Brilliant link thanks, I've posted a few things in that thread myself.

Trouble is they have now sent doc's for the loan element of claim, which is £800 ish, the rest of the claim is for overdraft with loads of charges!

The thread you linked is more for the case that they haven't provided doc's, our case is that they have, however they have not sent the t& c's with cca, goiong by other threads this would more than likely be enforced at court. The Default notice is a bit iffy.IMO

I think DN is borderline, not written in bold where it should be, No underlining of certain words, no date of when it was issued, just the date to remedy, no proof it was ever posted,

All the links to there letter, DN and CCA are in post 176 above.

Still don't know how to respond to this.

More help needed please, Anyone! Andyorch are you about?

Edited March 27, 2009 by questioning
added a wee bit

[questioning]

BUMP.

Is there any advice from anyone regarding my last two posts in this thread. Especially post 176? Please anyone,

Edited February 8, 2009 by questioning

[AndyOrch]

Hi Q

 

I trust you are well?

Have you recieved an AQ yet for your case?

 

 

Regards

 

Andy

[questioning]

Hi Andy, hope you are ok, I have really bad dental probs at the mo (sad as i brush & floss really well) but other wise ok.

 

The only things I have received is the letter from DG asking us to withdraw our defence, posted in 176? along with a cca and supposed DN,

 

No AQ has not been received.

DG want a reply by 12th feb, I wonder how to reply,

I did include in my defence that if I received docs from them could I then write an amended defence.

What do u think about DN & cca,?

I was thinking the best way to go might be to say we would counter claim for bank charges, but am not sure if thats possible.

 

Thanks Andy, Q.x.

[AndyOrch]

Ok Q

 

DG are testing the water if no AQ recieved then the claim is still in stay.As you are aware the Claimant as to pay to revive the claim they want you to roleover and withdraw your defence (a fine defence may I add).

Can you post up what you have recieved ie CCA loan element and DN.Let us see if they are infact valid.Does the DN include punitive charges?

The without pred letter you have recieved im sure you aware can not be used in court and is used as a mindgame to unsteady your nerve.

 

Im not on my pc at the moment but will respond within the next 24 hours.

 

 

Regards

 

Andy

[questioning]

Hi Andy thanks,

Yes I have posted links of the CCA & default notice and the letter that we received from DG. they are in post 176 near the bottom.

 

I realised they just want us to give up, idiots that they are but would like to send them a "without predjudice reply" to try and put them off ,

I thought something like I will not withdraw my defence, perhaps mention that i would counter claim for the penalty charges?

 

Thats what I'm not sure of, I don't know how to respond.

 

They have not sent T's & C's with CCA regarding loan element and DN has no date on it, only date to remedy by, iffy, IMO.

 

Thanks Andy, I really appreciate your help, Are you OK Andy?

[AndyOrch]

Hi Andy thanks,

Yes I have posted links of the CCA & default notice and the letter that we received from DG. they are in post 176 near the bottom.

 

I realised they just want us to give up, idiots that they are but would like to send them a "without predjudice reply" to try and put them off , Excellent why not but head it without pred

I thought something like I will not withdraw my defence, perhaps mention that i would counter claim for the penalty charges? Excellent

 

Thats what I'm not sure of, I don't know how to respond.Will assist next week

 

They have not sent T's & C's with CCA regarding loan element and DN has no date on it, only date to remedy by, iffy, IMO.Will check it later

 

Thanks Andy, I really appreciate your help, Are you OK Andy?

Im excellent but not been around on a Cag as much as i would like

 

 

Regards

 

Andy8-)

[questioning]

Thanks Andy, I see I'm on the correct track, as usual I have no confidence.

 

I would love you to assist with a 'Without Pred. letter', written with your superior grammar.

 

Glad you are feeling excellent, was a bit worried when I got back on line and found you were not around much.

I have been off line for a couple of months, so have not been able to study all the info here as I was trying to do before.

 

Look forward to your help, love Q. xx

 

post 176 has link to letter from DG's, the CCA and Default notice. This post 176 is also an update on our case which was stayed after DG did not respond to our defence written in july of last year.

Edited March 21, 2009 by questioning

[AndyOrch]

Hi Q

 

Firstly as you quite rightly state the DN is bobbins and i am sure with all your knowledge gained here on CAG the reasons why no date no bold no underlining etc.Is this the DN for the loan element? and does it contain punitive charges or is it just the arrears of your loan payments?

you may wish to check out a thread of mine re changes to the CCA DN Oct 1st 2008

Amendments Default Notices CCA 1974 from Oct 1st 2008

 

Read carefuly Q knowledge is power in effect they have relinquished their balance on the loan and if said DN was valid (which it is not ) are only allowed to claim the arrears.

 

Moving on to the O/D no Termination Notice, original or copy ever recieved(dont forget they need two DNs as per their amalgamated P.O.C) I summise that this will contain the penalty charges,So in theory DN 1 + DN 2 + loan balance= P.O.C amount the bases of their Claim.

 

CCA Have you recieved page 2 as stated and referred to in the main body of the agreemet?

 

If you would give the above your attention Q and then we will prepare your response to DGs dribble.

 

Kind Regards

 

Andy;)

[AndyOrch]

Hi Q

 

 

If you would give the above your attention Q and then we will prepare your response to DGs dribble.

 

Kind Regards

 

Andy;)

Edited February 9, 2009 by Andyorch

[questioning]

I copied this post & pasted below in #189 for clarity.

Edited February 11, 2009 by questioning
added a little. removed post & copied it into next post

[questioning]

Hi Andy & thanks for your time.

Sorry I haven't replied earlier,. I've posted links to their "with out pred. letter, DN and CCA" Links at the end of this post...

 

The Default notice only contains arrears, no charges and is for the loan,

I notice DN says "further action set out below 'maybe taken against you," not sure if the fact they wrote 'may' instead of 'will', makes any difference.?

 

They sent this to me & duplicate to Mr. Q.

 

As for the overdraft no termination notice has been received and they have not supplied a copy of one, or mentioned one.

 

 

As for the CCA, I only received that copy posted, that one page, they have not sent page two, nor have they said they have original CCA. However the page they have sent does contain the prescribed terms, so on iffy ground here, depends what the judge is like I suppose!

 

 

 

Thanks Andy & sorry again for the late reply. love Q I'll read the link you posted now, thanks.

 

1ST page of DG's letter http://i658.photobucket.com/albums/uu306/DGsols/upload%20to%20cag/WithoutPfromDGsolsresized2ndpage002.jpg

2nd page of same letter http://i658.photobucket.com/albums/uu306/DGsols/upload%20to%20cag/WithoutPfromDGsols2ndpage004.jpg

 

1st page of Default Notice.

http://i658.photobucket.com/albums/uu306/DGsols/upload%20to%20cag/defaultnotice-1.jpg

 

2nd page of Default Notice.

http://i658.photobucket.com/albums/uu306/DGsols/upload%20to%20cag/2ndpageofDN-1.jpg

 

CCA (only part off it, but the main part, ) This is all that was received for CCA, NO other pages, just this.How ever this has the prescribed terms ......... http://i658.photobucket.com/albums/u...bbbbb001-1.jpg

 

Edited March 21, 2009 by questioning

[AndyOrch]

Good Morning Q

Hope the tooth is a little better.

 

Ok having perused all the posted documentation and giving it considerable thought IAOTO to ignore DGs request for you to withdraw your Defence.

We could respond without pred but see little point and would serve no purpose.There idle threats of applications etc are a smoke screen to frighten you into throwing in the towel.

The DN is totally invalid the CCA is incomplete of the T&Cs and also being a microfiche copy you can bet there is no page 2.Along with the failure to provide the O/D termination Notice.

They are fully aware of how the CPR works and other points made in your defence ie S69 interest, penalty charges, etc.

So I would tend to call their bluff after all this would be case of SCT (Small Claims Court) and costs would be restricted.

Before they can make any attempt of application for Summary Judgement they need to revive the claim first and file an AQ along with yourself which would enable you to reiterate your points of defence and the fact that the claim contains penalty charges.You can flag in your AQ that you are willing to try to settle but the claim must be adjusted to reflect the true figure.Which lets face it if the claim would have been made fairly and open in the first place all the above could have been avoided.

 

I trust the above is of help but it is your decision how to proceed

 

Regards

Andy

[questioning]

Hi thanks Andy, as always you never let people down, you are always there when needed. Really bad pain has subsided, thanks

 

I agree to not bothering with a detailed reply, I thought they just want us to roll over.

The letter asks for me to give them a detailed response to points they highlight. Why should I, the claim is stayed and as they initiated court action I feel I should only act when the court orders me to do so, rather than give detailed information in response to a letter, especially as all along they have given me little info regarding the claim.

 

I will however just pop a 'without pred', letter to them simply saying something like 'thanks for the letter but I do not wish to withdraw my defence.' That way they will know that I have received the letter and that they can bring it on.

 

If they carry on with court then so be it, I will keep fighting them all the way and at the end of the day, I and Mr. Q both work, Mr. Q full time, I part time, 2 kids, and we don't have much surplus income so they wouldn't get much more than a token payment anyway. We DO NOT own our own house either.

Edited March 21, 2009 by questioning

[angel_1]

hiya questioning

 

was referred to your thread from another, and so glad i was as ive learnt a lot yet again

 

i cannot believe the problems you have faced and still facing and how crafty and sly creditors can be with solicitors trying to watch their backs all the time, however, we mere litigants in persons have CAG,,,, and im so very grateful for the day i came here

 

the guidance you have had from the experienced gaggers you all know who you are so i wont mention so you wont blush:smile:

 

its fantastic to see the thread moving on with the guidance and help at just the right time, i feel so more positive in myself and its when you get a letter from the other side you start to have doubts because its all new and scary but once you come back here posting your concerns, Help is always there

 

what a community spirit we have here - amongst us we have people from all sorts of life and that is truely majical.

 

Huge thanks to everyone who reads this and has helped me personally - i will never forget it

 

So huge good luck and good wishes to you questioning and family - keep positive laters angel x;-)

[questioning]

Thanks for the kind words.

 

Update; I didn't get any sort of reply sent to DG's as I was in too much pain,(glad to say thats all over with now) so couldn't manage to sort out any correspondence, I would of liked to let them know that I had received there letter but didn't wish to proceed in the way they wanted!

 

Not heard anything yet! Problem that i see is the longer this goes on for (this stay) then if they revive the claim time has passed so if I then counter claimed for the penalty charges I can only go back for six years which then wipes the early charges. Early charges commenced sept 2002.

Cheers Q

Edited March 21, 2009 by questioning

[questioning]

Quick Question,

As this claim has been stayed for these past, (how ever many) months, while it is at this stage ..."stayed"

:idea: Does it mean I cannot go and start a claim for the bank charges on this over draft.?

 

I suppose it means I can't, just checking.

I never claimed before as I was not clued up on it, thought u could not claim if you were not in credit with the account, Dumb, yes I know.

[citizenB]

Thanks for the kind words Angel,

 

Update; I didn't get any sort of reply sent to DG's as I was in too much pain,(glad to say thats all over with now) so couldn't manage to sort out any correspondence, I would of liked to let them know that I had received there letter but didn't wish to proceed in the way they wanted me to.

 

Not heard anything yet! Problem that i see is the longer this goes on for (this stay) then if they revive the claim time has passed so if I then counter claimed for the penalty charges I can only go back for six years which then wipes the early charges. Early charges commenced sept 2002.

Cheers Q

 

I was going to say that if you had started your claim before the waiver then nothing would drop off the end so to speak. However, I noticed you hadnt. There is no reason why you cant start your claim now and then you will be the system.

 

I would get your spreadsheet sorted with all the charges and get your first letter off to the bank thereby starting the process.

 

Just yell if you need links to things.

[questioning]

Hi CB,

Thanks for your reply, I hope you are well,

I have been reading on the forum and it looks like I am in the same boat as others.

From what I gather it looks like DG's will go ahead with their threat of applying for summary judgment, (See post 176 for their letter.)

Obviously I have no idea if they definitely will or not but if they follow suit with what has happened to other posters they probably will.

I don't know if I should get the claim in now for the reclaiming of penalty charges or wait and see if they do apply for summary judgment.

If they do go for SJ then I could go for counterclaim of charges, BUT if I wait too long then the early charges are dropping off as they were over 6 yrs ago.

Since completing the spread sheet, four charges cannot be included now.

Obviously the more time passes more charges will drop off.

 

So I don't really know the best move. Sorry if you don't understand what I'm saying. I've typed quikly as kids will be home from school soon.

Part of the defense in this claim bought against us were the fact that it contains penalty charges!

[JonCris]

Even though it will almost certainly be stayed submit your claim now

[citizenB]

Hi Q,

 

My advice is the same as JC's in the post above. Get the claim in now, else you will lose more. The sooner you are in the system, the sooner you willl be paid out when all of the hoohaa is over.

 

They said for you to respond by 12th February, I would have thought they would have paid the fee by now were they going to proceed. Although that doesnt mean anything and they could do it tomorrow. I just think they would have done it already. It could be that they are aware that you would counterclaim for the charges and a stay would have been required a 2nd time...

 

The DN is rubbish, that is allowing for the fact that there is no date of issue, so you cant be sure they had allowed sufficient time.

 

I hope you are feeling better now {{{}}}

[questioning]

Hiya CB,

Feeling much better now thanks, I was in quite a bad way, even the anti biotics couldn't help, I think that pain is the worse pain out.

 

I am hoping that they were just bluffing, but as we know, there's no way of telling.

They didn't mention the bank charges in the letter to us, I'm sure you noticed.

OK to get this straight in my head, I'll follow the guide and get this claim in, It only needs one of us to do it doesn't it? even though its a joint account.

So I get my claim in and then 'if' they take this case further what will happen, would we cover the loan element of it and then say something like 'we have now put a claim in for the bank charges as we didn't know what was going to happen to this case, as it was stayed due to claimant not responding to our defense.'

Thanks for your help guys and gals.

Edited March 27, 2009 by questioning

[AndyOrch]

Hi Q i see your still not 100% fit then.

 

Just to put my 2 penneth in irrespective of the limitations act the fact remains the claim contains penalty charges at the date the claim was issued and therefore the amount in question also.Now irrespective of how long this case is stayed the penalty amount is in question and all activity on that account was frozen at the time of litigation.

Its not a case of you worrying that as time moves on the penalty charges will decrease because eveything remains status quo.I would not advocate you starting your own claim re penalty charges lets just off set the amount in question at the time the claim was made the debt remains the same as also the penalty charges value.

I trust the above makes sense but however knowing you Q you will be on to clarify.

 

Regards

 

Andy;)