MacKenzie Hall - Final Notice, please help?!

[brydonj]

Hello there again folks,

 

Following on from all the excellent advice I got on these forums when it came to re-claiming some bank charges a couple of years back, I'm hoping someone will be able to advise on a letter we have recieved from a company called MacKenzie Hall.

 

First off..sorry, this might drag on a bit..

 

We got a letter on 26th Feb asking my wife (using her maiden name - been married for 7 years this year) to call them regarding a personal matter. Had a quick look on the internet and realised they are a debt collection agency, and not very friendly apparently, so advised her to ignore it as there was nothing for which we had any debt outstanding for. However she did phone as she was so worried about it, and asked them to send out more information.

 

Had nothing from them until we got a final notice letter this morning, asking for £2300. When my wife called them a few weeks back, they advised her it was for a Providian Credit Card in 2002. She did have a card with this company, however the limit on it was approx £500 and is adamant that it was paid off at the time.

However, in the final notice letter today, it states the debt is being pursued by Cabot Financial, and not Providian?

 

It states in the letter that we have until noon on Friday to pay in full or call them to discuss.

 

My wife has just got a copy of her credit report, and there is nothing on there showing as being overdue or adverse credit other than a couple of late (not missed) payments to her catalogue etc.

 

My concerns are:

 

Can they send round debt collectors for this? Have heard some horrible stories about this happening, and with young kids am slightly concerned about that.

 

I don't want to pay a penny without knowing what I am paying it for - how do I get a copy of the documentation they have (or claim to have) so I can check to see if this is a bone-fide debt and not someone elses. I don't want my wife phoning them, so can I call on her behalf?

 

So many questions .. but I think I've prattled on long enough

 

Can anyone please offer advice on how to handle this, as I don't know where to start with these people - feeling a bit out of my depth here!

 

Thanks for taking the time to read this,

 

Regards

JB

 

p.s As we're in Scotland, does this affect the legal side of how I should handle this?

[PossVox]

Hi JB,

 

You did the right thing coming back to CAG for advice!

 

It sounds as though this is a phishing trip and this firm are trying to get you to pay a debt that has been sold to them as it is either Statute Barred or almost so.

 

Statute Barred means that the debt has not been acknowledged in writing or had any payment made against it for 6 years+1 day. It sounds as though this would fit in with your recollection of the date your wife had the card.

 

In my opinion, you have 3 options:

 

1) Send a letter to say "prove it" to Mac Hall

2) Send a letter stating that the debt is Stat Barred (if you're sure of your dates)

3) Send a request for a true copy of your Consumer Credit Agreement (CCA)

 

Templates for the letters to send are available on the site and I can post them up for you if you need them.

 

You could wait and see if some of the more experienced CAGgers come up with more advice but if you decide on one of the options I've suggested then post up again and I'll try to guide you through it.

 

Don't worry, you're in the best place to sort this out.

 

PV

[N.P]

Hi JB,

 

Welcome to the CAG, your in the right place here on in.

 

First thing, you must NEVER SPEAK TO THESE MORONS ON THE PHONE, EVERYTHING IN WRITING FROM NOW ON! They will tell you anything to get you to pay!

 

DO NOT MAKE ANY PAYMENT OFFERS!

 

DO NOT SIGN ANYTHING! PRINT YOUR NAME!

 

I`d go with PV`s Option 1 for now, the prove it letter;

 

Have a good read and edit to taste -

 

 

 

 

 

REQUEST FOR INFORMATION UNDER THE CIVIL PROCEDURE RULES.

 

 

Dear Morons,

 

I Do Not Acknowledge any debt to your company.

 

I have today received your letter dated ** October 2007 Ref *********** which purports to be a letter before action and threatens that legal proceedings may be issued without further notice.

You are formally informed that this debt is in legal dispute with Halifax and it seems your only involvement in this matter is to provide harassment.

I will not be making any payment to you.

I will not be calling you. This is because I do not carry out any financial business on the telephone, all business between us must be in writing.

 

Please provide me with proof of your lawful right to claim any money from me.

 

You must not telephone me either at my home number or any of my employers numbers, any calls from you will be recorded and construed as harassment.

 

You must not threaten to send collection staff to my residence as again this will be construed as harassment.

 

Take note that any implied right of access that may have existed to my residence and grounds is withdrawn from you and any of your agents apart from Royal Mail, to this effect, for you to send a door step collector will be considered trespass and harassment and you will be held liable and reported to the relevant authorities.

 

You have threatened that you may take court action against me; I will be vigorously defending any court action.

 

As you are aware, under the pre-action protocols of the Civil Procedure Rules, I am entitled in order to enable me to file a defence and counter-claim lawfully entitled to request specific information regarding the account, to be provided forthwith.

 

Given that you have stated that this matter may be subject to legal proceedings, if you decide to embark on this course of action, you are obliged to disclose under the rules, the following information and documents must be supplied to me as detailed below;

 

If you fail to comply, this will be reported to the Court, a copy of this letter will be provided as evidence to the same and an Order enforcing your compliance will be sought.

 

IN RESPECT OF THE ALLEGED DEBT CLAIMED, I REQUIRE:

 

1. A true copy of the executed credit agreement and any terms and conditions that applied to the account at the time of any default and at the time the account was opened.

 

2. All records you hold on me relevant to this case, including but not limited to:

 

a. A transcript of all transactions, including charges, fees, interest, repayments and payments and both the original amount of the loan and any repayments made to it the account.

 

b. Transcriptions of all telephone conversations recorded and any notes made in relation to telephone conversations by your company, or by any previous creditor

 

c. Where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my account.

 

d. True copies of any notice of assignment and/or default notice or enforcement notice that you or the original creditor sent me, with a copy of any proof of postage that you hold.

 

e. Documents relating to any insurance added to the account, including the insurance contract and terms and conditions, date it was added and deleted (if applicable).

 

f. Details of any collection charge added to the account; specifically, the date it was levied, the amount of the charge, a detailed financial breakdown of how the charge was calculated, and what the charge covers.

 

g. Specific details of the fees/charges levied by any other agency in respect of this account and a detailed breakdown of said fees/charges and what each charge relates to and on what date said fees/charges were levied.

 

h. A genuine copy of any deed of assignment, or proof that you have a legal right to this money.

 

i. A genuine copy of any notice of fair use of my data as required by the Data Protection Act 1998

 

j. A list of third party agencies to whom you have disclosed my personal data and a summary of the nature of the information you have disclosed.

 

k. A copy of all account statements for the duration of the agreement.

 

3. Any other documents you seek to rely on in court.

 

4. A copy of your complaints procedure, as required by the Consumer Credit Act 2006.

 

5. Clarification of the date you acquired the debt, what organisation you acquired it from, their registered office, their company number (if any) and what legal title they had to this debt, and what credit license number they had at the time that the debt was purchased or entered into.

 

I must advise you that if the information is not forthcoming, it will be reported to the Court that through your non-compliance you are frustrating proceedings and denying me the opportunity to file a defence and counter claim.

In my lawful request dated to Halifax PLC on *** May 2007 I clearly requested a true copy of the credit agreement relating to the account in dispute. A “true copy” means a first generation copy of the actual signed document.

 

This document should be readily available as proof of your or your clients legal right to collect this account.

 

Your and your client’s failure to provide this documentation within the statutory time limits means your client has committed a summary criminal offence.

 

I will be highlighting this at any court hearing.

 

If you make arrangements for me to view the original documentation at one of your client’s branches close to my home, provided that the document is a fully compliant Consumer Credit Agreement under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

I will immediately, after viewing, resume payments.

 

However due to your vexatious nature of your correspondence I reserve the right to make formal complaints against you and your client to Trading Standards and the Office of Fair Trading to whom I may now send copies of our correspondence as evidence.

 

Please be aware that I am logging all correspondence with you with regards to this matter and will be charging for time at the rate of £17.80 per hour as part of my counterclaim against any action you may take.

 

I trust you will deal with this matter using all due diligence.

 

Kind Regards

I have used this a couple of times to great affect.

 

Send it Recorded Delivery or Special Delivery if you can afford it, keep a copy of all letters sent and keep all letters received.

 

There is no point is wasting £1 for the CCA just yet, see what these knob jockeys come back with first and we`ll go from there.

 

Remember, DO NOT SIGN, PRINT YOUR NAME!

 

I hope this helps, if so, please click my scales.

 

Watching with interest.

 

Regards

 

 

N.P

[PossVox]

Hi again,

 

Here's a shorter "Prove it" letter, go with whichever you prefer.

Dear Sir/Madam

 

You have contacted me/us regarding the account with the above reference number, which you claim is owed by myself/ourselves.

 

I/we would point out that I/we have no knowledge of any such debt being owed to (insert company name).

 

I am/we are familiar with the Office of Fair Trading Debt Collection Guidance which states that it unfair to send demands for payment to an individual when it is uncertain that they are the debtor in question.

 

I/we would also point out that the OFT say under the Guidance that it is unfair to pursue third parties for payment when they are not liable. In not ceasing collection activity whilst investigating a reasonably queried or disputed debt you are using deceptive/and or unfair methods.

 

Furthermore ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment amounts to physical/psychological harassment.

 

I/we would ask that no further contact be made concerning the above account unless you can provide evidence as to my/our liability for the debt in question.

 

I/we await your written confirmation that this matter is now closed. Otherwise I will have no option but to make a complaint to the trading standards department and consider informing the OFT of your actions.

 

I/we look forward to your reply.

 

Yours faithfully

 

Great advice from NP re NEVER ON THE PHONE etc.

 

Go Get 'Em!!!

[brydonj]

Thanks to you both for your very quick replies!!

 

I'll get the letter done tonight, and fire it off recorded delivery tomorrow and see what they come back with.

 

What about sending people round to the house - are they able/likely to do this at this/any stage?

[N.P]

Hi again JB,

 

Just one more thing, never be affraid of these idiots, they are nothing but parrassites, who will tell you any old lies hoping you will pay up, even if you don`t owe anything. No matter how much you are in debt, you are better than these horrible fools, and there is always a way out. There will always be someone around to help on CAG.

 

All they are interested in is money, they will tell you to get it any way to can to pay up. In short, if they ring and they catch you out, just speak to them however you seem fit. My last conversion with some turb burgler at Crapone ended with me telling to `f*** O** you stupid, irritating little c***, your pis**** me off now, so stop f****** ringing`, LOL, I haven`t heard from them since.

 

Regards

 

 

N.P

[PossVox]

Don't let these people get to you...they want you to believe that they have far reaching legal powers...THEY DON'T!!!

 

If they threaten to call at your house or actually turn up (which is HIGHLY UNLIKELY) then do not enter into conversation with them... tell them to GO AWAY AS THEY ARE TRESPASSING...

 

If they do not leave then you are within your rights to call the POLICE as you believe there may be a breach of the peace... The doorstepper knows this too and will do a runner!!!

 

There's a letter template to deal with threats of house calls....

 

Don't worry... we've all been in your situation... it's just so good that here on CAG, we learn how to fight back!

 

Keep us posted

[N.P]

Thanks to you both for your very quick replies!!

 

I'll get the letter done tonight, and fire it off recorded delivery tomorrow and see what they come back with.

 

What about sending people round to the house - are they able/likely to do this at this/any stage?

 

 

Hiya,

 

This is all crap, lies, whatever you call it.

 

Nothing but bully tactics and intimidating techniques.

 

They`ll need to take you to Court and win, for that to happen. Even then, you`ll need to default on any CCJ given, and they`ll have to go back to Court to send a Bailiff round. Anyone else that comes to your door is a nobody looking for his / weeks wages from you. Tell them to p*** o** and if they don`t set your dog onto them, they are tresspassing.

 

Your paperboy and Postman have more rights then they do, because you allow these people onto property.

 

Regards

 

 

N.P

[tomterm8]

MacKenzie hall are tertiary DCA (they collect debts that other DCA's have already deemed uncollectable or uneconomic to collect). The debt will likely be over 6 years old (i.e. you haven't paid or acknowledged in 6 years, or 5 in scotland) and therefore statute barred.

 

You are not legally required to let debt collectors onto your premisis, tell them to go away, and call the police if they refuse. Like any other tresspasser.

 

Don't call them.

 

Personally, i would ignore any letter that did not contain a account no and original creditor, as they are famous for fishing, that is going after anyone with mildly similar names in an attempt to bag a target.

[N.P]

Thanks to you both for your very quick replies!!

 

I'll get the letter done tonight, and fire it off recorded delivery tomorrow and see what they come back with.

 

What about sending people round to the house - are they able/likely to do this at this/any stage?

 

 

You`ll also find on this site, that with each letter you send, you become stronger and actually look forward to challenging these clowns.

 

Also, no matter how hard things may seem, people still post on here with humour and laughter. It seems to me no one takes these DCA`s seriously, which in a way is good, because at least they aren`t getting to you.

 

Don`t forget to start your letter with `Dear Morons`, which is what they are. I beleive respect must be earned, LOL.

 

 

N.P

[maroondevo52]

What about sending people round to the house - are they able/likely to do this at this/any stage?

 

There's more chance of me turning up at your house

[brydonj]

Thats magic, thanks everyone for your advice so far. It really is appreciated.

 

Will write back and let you all know how we get on.

 

Cheers

JB

[brydonj]

There's more chance of me turning up at your house

 

 

I hope not with that username

Should have named myself GreenBrydonJ .. lol !

[Fred Bassett]

Hi again JB,

 

Just one more thing, never be affraid of these idiots, they are nothing but parrassites, who will tell you any old lies hoping you will pay up, even if you don`t owe anything. No matter how much you are in debt, you are better than these horrible fools, and there is always a way out. There will always be someone around to help on CAG.

 

All they are interested in is money, they will tell you to get it any way to can to pay up. In short, if they ring and they catch you out, just speak to them however you seem fit. My last conversion with some turb burgler at Crapone ended with me telling to `f*** O** you stupid, irritating little c***, your pis**** me off now, so stop f****** ringing`, LOL, I haven`t heard from them since.

 

Regards

 

 

N.P

 

N.P., just a bit of advice:

 

Next time they ring, don't beat about the bush, just say what you mean.

 

Regards.

 

Fred

[maroondevo52]

I hope not with that username

 

 

Yeh, and I'll bring Romanov with me, riding Shergar :o

[PossVox]

Also, no matter how hard things may seem, people still post on here with humour and laughter. It seems to me no one takes these DCA`s seriously, which in a way is good, because at least they aren`t getting to you.

N.P

 

NP's right you see...the humour's creeping in already!!!

[brydonj]

Sorry, one last question (for tonight anyway..)

 

Should I use my wife's maiden name on the letters to Mac Hall - as it is on the letters from them - or should I just use her surname as it is now?

 

 

Thanks again...!

[N.P]

N.P., just a bit of advice:

 

Next time they ring, don't beat about the bush, just say what you mean.

 

Regards.

 

Fred

 

 

You liked that then did you Fred? LOL

 

Anyone hassles me on MY phone line and they`ll get the full wrath of the Horden Hammer!

 

 

 

N.P

[Fred Bassett]

Yeh, and I'll bring Romanov with me, riding Shergar :o

 

While you're on the way could you see if you could find Lord Lucan?

 

Fred

[N.P]

Sorry, one last question (for tonight anyway..)

 

Should I use my wife's maiden name on the letters to Mac Hall - as it is on the letters from them - or should I just use her surname as it is now?

 

 

Thanks again...!

 

 

 

Use her name as it is now, after all, that IS her name and it will confuse those numpites too, LOL

 

Have a good night.

 

Ciao for now

 

 

N.P

[Fred Bassett]

You liked that then did you Fred? LOL

 

Anyone hassles me on MY phone line and they`ll get the full wrath of the Horden Hammer!

 

 

 

N.P

 

Ah, I love it!. I gave some woman from Halifax the full blast one night, although I did keep the swearing down to a minimum. I think she was new to the job, she was stammering away and I wouldn't let her get a work in edgeways. All I could hear was her supervisor coming through her headphones telling her to end the call. I wasn't meant to hear it and I couldn't help saying "and you can tell that f****** cow to shut her gob!"

 

Made me smile. They didn't ring me for ages after that!

 

Regards.

 

Fred

[Rahl]

You do not know really if you are within the 6 years of limitation or out , from 2002 to 2008, it might be better to keep a silence with all manner of communication, verbal or written until you are sure it has become statute barred. A longer period of silence may draw more information out of them as they try to prise you out of your shell to make contact with them. You do not want to say at this stage (if still under 6 years) to them it is statute barred as it might be tantamount to admitting the debt exists .

 

The longer you can keep from making any contact, the greater the chance it becomes statute barred , so i would let them go through the process of their threats to waste away a few more months as you glean more information regarding this alleged debt and also to acquire more information from this forum about stragedies to employ against these dca's. You have to watch the enemies moves, see what he has to offer , do not commit yourself too early , stand back from the fray until you have armed yourself with all information you can and then let the dca have the steel up them . Attack when you see the whites of their eyes. You wouldn't want to make a mistake so late on in the 6 year term by replying with an errant line in a letter that they could construe as admittance when silence may suit you best for now.

[PossVox]

Hi JB,

 

Rahl may have a point with regard to waiting until you're certain that the 6 years has passed i.e. Stat Barred.

 

I, personally, would send the letter you were planning to send today as you have said that it's a final notice you have received.

 

As long as you put, in bold, at the top of the letter "I DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE ANY DEBT TO YOUR COMPANY" then you won't start the clock ticking again on the Stat Barred debt.

 

Remember, it's up to THEM to prove you owe them money and not the other way round.

 

[SteveH2508]

Sound advice from Rahl there.

 

Have a read of this thread http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/134506-inside-dca.html

 

It will give you a good insight as to their timescales and processes. If you tell them nothing and make no contact they have nothing further to go on.

[N.P]

Morning all,

 

They are saying he ows them money, so if he says the debt may be Statute Barred, then he is not admitting it, he is simply stating this debt. whoever it belongs may be Statue Barred.

 

Possibly hold out until they send another letter. If they do, then clearly they are looking for YOU. Then send the Prove It letter to start slowing them down.

 

If they then come back with an account number of something, then CCA them.

 

Regards

 

 

N.P