Orange contract

[Surfer01]

I wrote to Orange disputing their contractual rates as basically I was charged for Internet access contary to what was agreed by an agent acting on their behalf, however they did not respond in writing and verbally told me that I had to pay anyway.

I also asked Oange to set up a DD to take a fixed sum from my account to cover the monthlu usage of about £70 while the Internet charges were being investigated. They refused this stating that I had to pay all arrears before they would consdier setting up a DD. They were not interested in a Standing order either.

I am now in the process of promoting the issue through Moneryclaim however can Orange still hand the issue over to a DCA if the amount is in dispute? The amount the DCa is claiming is actually higher than the last bill I recevied from orange. Secondly I cannot find a contract between Orange and myself, what legislation can I use to ask for this document?

[mutzi]

You can request anything they stored under the Data Protection Act, just reword the template for bank charges to cover the agreement and anything else you want.

 

The T&C's are on their site, though they may have changed since you signed up. Orange - terms of use

[Surfer01]

Last year I entered into a contract with Orange via an agent however I was given misleading information whch resulted in extremely high bills. The end result is that at present I have been disconnected however I am still charged the monthly subscription. I am also in the process of claiming costs from the agent who gave incorrect information via small claims court.

Also at the same time this has been handed over to a DCA NCO to whom I am paying regular payments. Orange never bothered to answer my letter. I cannot locate any contract between Orange and myself and the DCA states it is not their responsibility to supply the contract although they have taken over the debt. Who has to supply a copy of the contract?

In addition as the contract ends in early November, can Orange be made to unlock the phone in order for me to use it as a Pay as You Go phone with a sim card from another company or can they leave it locked until the debt is paid in full? What are my options?

[buzby]

I'm assuming the contract hasn't run for its 12 (or 18 months? Orange will not provide an unlock code until the contract has been completed - but many phones can be unlocked by independent shops for around £10 - or do a UK Google searchfor 'Free Unlocking of Mobile Phones'. As to the contract, irrespective of what the dealer has done, the network and its service will be administrered by Orange, and it is they who will hold the contract. The details abd conditions will be printed in the phone user guide, I think they're the only network to do this - and the type is big enough to read. I'm surprised you're having this hassle, as unless it was a cashback deal from a dealer that hasn't materialised, O are pretty good at sorting things out when the problem is at their end. What bit of the dealers info was misleading? If it was a verbal promise, the chances of success are slim unless you can prove there are others in a similar situation. Care to elaborate?

[blacksheep1979]

The other thing that Orange *could* do (not def) is block the phone totally so even if unlocked to other networks it won't work if the bill isn't settled. They will probably be well within their rights to do this as the phone is offset against the phone rental and phone classed as their property until completion of the contract (I believe).

[clint1974]

http://www.i-hacked.com/content/view/50/87/

 

Download this and unlock it yourself!

[buzby]

The other thing that Orange *could* do (not def) is block the phone totally so even if unlocked to other networks it won't work if the bill isn't settled. .

 

I'm unaware of any network doing this, as the IMEI blocking facility can only be used for 'lost and stolen' handsets. A locked blocked phone is useless, a locked active phone can still generate the network revenue.

[buzby]

Download this and unlock it yourself!

 

But only if you have certain types of Nokia phones. At least a dealer only gets paid by results!

[Surfer01]

The contract was paid regular for about 4 months and then I incurred charges of nearly £700 for Internet usage due to being misled by the agent. It was supposed to be 1 Gb for £4-00 per month not £1 per megabyte. Unfortunately I was unable to pay £700 up front and eventually the phones got disconnected. Both the wife's phone and mine were on the same account but it was my phone that racked up the internet charges. Luckily I have the misinformation in writing and at present I am pursuing the money from the agent. They have paid up about £300 of the £700 but are refusing to pay the balance. I am presently filing a claim through small claims court.

My contract actually expires in early November but the outstanding amount in the meantime has been handed over to a DCA to whom I am paying the same amount as I would be to Orange but will not be paid up by November. I cannot locate a contact for the phone subscription anywhere and it is highly unlikely that I have misplaced it as all contracts are filed away. Having only realised this recently I am now asking Orange to send a copy but I am not sure which statute to use to request the copy.

The phones are Nokia 6680s but at present I am using two older phones as Pay as you Go however I would prefer to use the 6680s as Pay as you go if possible once the contract has expired although the account is in arrears but the money is being recovered by tghe DCA and also I am pursuing the agent for nearly £600 which includes the re-connection charge, the Internet charges and the subscription charges for the period that I have been disconnected.

[Surfer01]

A debt got handed over to NCO and I am not disputing it as the majority of it is also the subject of a small claims case. However when I paid them by debit card the first instalment they wanted to know why I had originally default on payments, they wanted details of other creditors and the amount that I am paying out to those creditors. I refused the supply those details and gave them a general overview of income and expenditure. The also wanted details of my wife's income to which I replied that it was none of their business.

What sort of details am I obliged to pass onto them. They also insisted on a higher payment plan than what I would have been paying with the original creditor. Again I refused and this time I was told that it would affect my credit scoring. Surely once it has gone to a DCA your credit rating is stuffed anyway. I have agreed a standing order with them although they tried to insist on a DD.

Can any one give me an opinion of the above?

[gizmo111]

A debt got handed over to NCO and I am not disputing it as the majority of it is also the subject of a small claims case. However when I paid them by debit card the first instalment they wanted to know why I had originally default on payments, they wanted details of other creditors and the amount that I am paying out to those creditors. I refused the supply those details and gave them a general overview of income and expenditure. The also wanted details of my wife's income to which I replied that it was none of their business.

What sort of details am I obliged to pass onto them. They also insisted on a higher payment plan than what I would have been paying with the original creditor. Again I refused and this time I was told that it would affect my credit scoring. Surely once it has gone to a DCA your credit rating is stuffed anyway. I have agreed a standing order with them although they tried to insist on a DD.

Can any one give me an opinion of the above?

 

Generally a creditor would want ot know your income and expenditure so that they can see they are being amde a fair offer. Your credit rating is probably affected already and you may have a default on record. Every DCA I have been involved with has set up a standing order - so can't help there.

 

When you say small claims case do you mean they already have a CCJ against you.

[Surfer01]

I am instituting a small claims action against the agent who misrepresented the contract to me which resulted in me incurring excessive fees for connecting to the Internet via my mobile. Total owed about £990 of which about £700 was due to the Internet connection charges. Unfortunately Orange would not accept part payments and it was all the outstanding amount or nothing. As I could not pay all they handed it over to the DCA although I am pursuing the agent through the small claims court. In the meantime I am paying the DCA what I would have being paying Orange monthly.

[buzby]

1) As I said earlier - Orange phones have the contract printed as part of the USER GUIDE supplied with the phone. It's that thick square booklet with black covers.

2) Orange must be aware that the account is in dispute, as you have evidence that the dealer mis-sold the tariff, Orange do have a joint responsibility - so whilst it's messy the DCA should really leave you alone. Pursue Orange and tell them to take the dogs off, you've done nothingf wrong.

3) The 6680 is a 3G phone, so when switching to PAYG, remember to get a 3G SIM card (buy from any Orange shop)

4) If you connect to Orange 3G PAYG, you'll not need the phone unlocked.

[Surfer01]

Due to misrepresentation I ended up with a mobile bill in excess of £800 for two months usage. The phone came with a freebie package offering 1 gigabyte of download per month free of charge. The supplier, mobiles.co.uk, in writing, told me that once the freebie finished after 3 months, I could download 1GB of data per month for £4 per gigabyte when in fact it was £4 per megabyte. Based on the £4 per gigabyte I entered into a contract with Orange via mobiles.co.uk in Nov 05. This was all done over the internet and I never received or actually signed any contract. Their T & Cs were on their website an were never sent to me at any stage.

 

This misrepresentation landed me with a huge bill and obviously I could not pay the £800 and eventually Orange handed the debt over to a DCA despite me contacting Orange explaining the circumstances and offering to pay at £120 per month until I was able to catch up. For Orange it was all or nothing and they were not interested in the fact that the contract had basically been mis-sold from the outset! In July my phones got disconnected.

 

The issue now is that I have a default registered against my name although at no time did I receive a default notice. I have been paying the DCA the same amount that I would have been paying Orange as per my subscription.

 

Although I will be taking mobiles.co.uk to court over this to claim compensation for incorrect info I am unsure whether I can get the default removed. Mobiles.co.uk have acknowledged that they made a mistake but only paid part of the outstanding balance of £800 saying that when I realised that it was incorrect I should have stopped logging onto the Internet.

 

At the time I assumed that it was just a clerical error and that it would be rectified. In fact they did organise with Orange that I would stay on the free Gigabyte download from April onwards but I was still liable for payment for the remaining £365 for data download in between.

 

As the contract was misrepresented, in essence I feel that there was no contract, secondly mobiles.co.uk should be liable for the outstanding balance handed over to the DCA, thirdly they should arrange with Orange to have the default removed when it goes to court. Lastly as I had to pay £20 each for the 2 phones to be transferred to another network could I claim back these charges because if I knew that I would be paying £4 per megabyte download I would never have entered into a contract with Orange as there other options open to me?

 

Do you feel that I have a reasonably strong case? I do not object to paying the normal usage subscription for the time that the phone was connected and usable.

[buzby]

I'd really love to say yes for so many reasons... but I can't. The get-out is that Orange are not responsible for statements made by their sales agents. If anyone mis-sold the contract, it was mobiles.co.uk, and they have admitted this. They're suggestion that you should have realised something was wrong is a fair one, but I doubt any judge would accept 'clerical error' as a defence on your part to keep up the volume of data downloads.

 

Regarding your default - this is not a CCJ, and simply Orange saying you've not paid your bills. This is not a contract regulated under the CCA so you don't get a formal 'Default Notice' - complete with wording mandated by the Consumer Credit Act. The default can only be removed by Orange, or by getting a Judge to force them to do so, but as your action is against a third party, this will not follow on or can be incorporated into your action.

 

You do have a case, but not with Orange, and this is the weakness that will stop you achieving what you want, unless you bring them into your action (but as this is English law, I'm unsure if this is possible in the Small Claims track).

 

I really doubt you can repudiate your service contract in the way you hoped - and with hindsight 3UK would probably have been your best bet for this kind of data bandwidth. Still on the money angle, I cannot see a problem in letting mobiles.co.uk argue the point, and taking some of the financial strain.

[Surfer01]

Thanks Buzby for a most informative reply. My grudge is not against Orange but against the agent for misrepresentation and it is the agent that I will be taking to court.

My subscription ran from the 20th of each month till the 19th of the following month and I would only receive the bill at the end of the month at which stage I would have downloaded data for the several days in the following month's period. Although I contacted them and advise there was a problem, initially I contacted orange and only when I got feedback did I contact mobiles.co.uk and explain what had happened. They told me that they would look into it and it was only on the 19th of the following month that they informed me that a mistake had been made. I still have it in writing from them regardng the cost of the download. At no time was I told to stop downloading. My initial contact emails specifically stated that I was looking for a download package as at the time I had the option of contracting to Adams phones at £30 per month.

The only thing that annoyed me about Orange is that when I made an offer to pay over and above the normal subscription whilst the issue was getting resolved they turned me down flat stating that they wanted the full outstanding amount in addition to my subscription and this I could not afford. I continued to pay the normal subscription but the £800 then went beyond the 3 months thus invoking disconnection and a default being placed on my file due to the actions of their agent.

What gets me is that if you run a business and you have self employed agents working for you and that agent agrees for instance you changing utility supplier, it is almost impossible for you to get out of the contract because they were acting on your behalf or representing your company. Pity it does not work the other way around. I think companies should be responsible for the actions of their agents. Perhaps then they would vet them more closely.

This is the only default I have ever had against me and if it was my fault I would hold up my hands and accept my fate, but it this instance it was not. As my contract with Orange is no longer valid, what right does a CRA have to hold my info because it is not in the public domain like a CCJ. The other course of action is to request that my file at the CRAs is manually searched as opposed to automatic credit scoring.

[buzby]

There was a time Orange were pretty good at resolving issues amicably, but France Telecom came in as new owners and the mantra 'show me the money' became the goal.

 

You are quite right, why should they not be held liable for the actions of their agents? The issue is effectively resolved in that you are signing up to an Orange contract which takes precedence over any statements made by agents - clearly they were well-meaning but wrong, but since your contract is with Orange, you have to prove THEY were in error to get anywhere with this.

 

HOWEVER, Orange - even quite recently - have been happy to remove defaults like these when there is a clear indication the problem was not solely due to the user, so copying in Orange to your dispute with the dealer may pay dividends later.

 

Why is your Orange contract 'no longer valid'? If it has been prematurely ended, they will have loaded early termination fees which disadvantage you - I'd want them to revisit that and recalculate. The mechanism for enforcing a manual credit file search does not work in every case. Summary searches can be obtained that will miss this, it is only when a full search is requested with the manual flag be shown.

[Surfer01]

Thanks for that. Once I have paid up the arrears I will contact Orange regarding removing the default. Hopefully by then the court case would have gone through and producing this as proof may help my case to have the default removed.

The Orange contract ended in mid October 2006 so I was only billed 3 x £60 although I did not have use of the phone on subscription. As I had purchased an Orange PAYG sim card I could use the phones until the contract expired. I then switched to Tesco paying Orange a £20 fee on each phone to switch networks.

[Surfer01]

I took out a supply contract with Orange via mobiles.co.uk. I was informed that after the 3 month free trial for up to 1 GB download it would cost only £4 per GB. This was the main reason I took out the contract. Once the 3 month trial period ended I received a bill for over £400 as the charge was £4 per megabyte not £4 per gigabyte. Luckily I have it in writing about the £4 per gigabyte from mobiles.co.uk and will be taking them to court to recover costs.

Unfortunately as bills are a month in arrears I clocked up another £400 usage. Mobiles.co.uk paid some of the first £400 and refused to pay the other £400 stating that when I received the first bill I should have stopped logging onto the Internet.

Anyway to cut a long story short Orange notified me that the outstanding amount would be passed over to a DCA despite me asking if I could pay off the £400 over a period of time, i.e. normal subscription £70 but I would pay £120 per month an additional £50 as I could not afford a lump sum of £400. Basically they were not responsible for the actions of their agents. I have been paying the DCA at £70 per month and the amount is almost paid off, however in the meantime my credit rating has been severely affected. This is the only "bad" credit that I have and I have not missed a single payment to the DCA.

As Orange never notified me that they were issuing me with a default, are they entitled to put one on my file. Is there any way I can get it removed and if so which is the best way to go about it? Unfortunately network suppliers seem to be a law unto their own and I am unsure how to approach it to get the default removed. Any suggestions would be welcomed.

[TheAnalyst]

Apparently mobile contracts dont come under the CCA so they are not obliged to send out a stat default notice before trashing your credit files with a default marker.

I'm having similar issues with the Carphone Warehouse working on behalf of O2 but they are actually being quite reasonable about it and are offering to remove the default marker once the balance is cleared (although the late payment markers 1, 2, 3 etc will remain)

 

Worth writing to them and asking if they would do this?

[Surfer01]

Thanks Theanalyst. It seems that the laws around mobile phones is very vague and needs tightening up.

[Surfer01]

In November 2005 I entered into a supply contract with Orange via an agent. Orange offered a 1 GB download per month free of charge for the first three months on a year's contract. I questioned the agent on the cost of downloads once the free period was passed and in writing via email I was advised it was £4 per 1000 megabytes. I still have the original email. This did not sound unreasonable as orange were offering 1000 mbs free. I then agreed to the supply contract based on this info.

At end of March 2006 I received a bill in excess of £400 mostly for download charges. On questioning this I was told by Orange that it was £4 per megabyte. I immediately contacted the agent who then agreed that there had been a mistake but only advised me of this some 20 days later after I had recevied the first bill. They agreed to refund me the difference less the £4 as they stated this is what I would have paid anyway to the supplier. My argument is that they should then have paid the supplier the £4 as the agent did not have a network supply licence.

Anyway at the end of the following month I received another high bill but this time when I approached the agent for another refund they point blank refused to offer a refund stating that when I recevied the first bill I should have stopped downloading but at the time I assumed it was a clerical error as I had gone specifically for a package that offered me large downloads per month.

In addition approximatley 10 days of the new billing cycle would have elapsed before I got the first bill and until I received the first bill with the download charges I had no idea anything was wrong. At no time until approximately the 19th of April did the agent advise to stop downloading until the issue was resolved. As I had it in writing about the cost of the download per 1000 mbs I assumed that it was just a clearical error and it would be cleared off my bill. My billing cycle was from 20th of the month until 19th of the following month with the bill arriving at the end of each month.

Unfortunatley this did not happen and as I could not pay a bill of £400 plus at the time, I was defaulted and handed over to a DCA, NCO Europe. I agreed to pay them £70 per month which would have been the same amount for my contract if things had not gone pear shape. This now paid but the default remains.

I have written a nice letter to Orange and asked them politely to consider authorising the default to be removed as it was not deliberate on my part but due to a misleading pitch by the sales agent. Orange have not bothered with a response and I would like now to take it further.

I have checked all correspondence received from the agent and cannot find a contract at all as it was done over the Internet via the agents site mobiles.co.uk.

Please advice on the best course of action in order for me to get this one and only default removed as it is having an impact on my credit rating and I am unable to get deals at a good APR. In addition, I would like to take the agent to the Small Claims court for the extra download charges which work out at about £400. Would this be feasible?

[Surfer01]

Today i received a letter from Orange and judging from their answer they did not even bother to read my letter or look at the accompanying evidence that i presented.

Instead they rambled on about cashback & discounts scenarios which is not a concern in this case. They also state that "the dealer used to sell for Orange, Vodafone, T-Mobile & 3 therefore they are not acting as our agent". Hey have I missed something here?

The go on to state "Ofcom recently advise that "The mobile operators have in place processes for handling complaints about the sale and promotion of their mobile serices. These processes include handling complaints from customers that have been subjected to "slamming" or who are having difficulties in making claims onsales incentives schemes and advising then on howto obtian redress. Mobile operators do not, howeve, underwrite the obligations of other legal entities"

considering I wrote to them at the time of the incident and advised that I could not pay the bill in one go and asked if I could pay a higher amount over the next 7 months to catch up and they refsued and said all or nothing I find the above a bit contrary.

Orange then go on to say "We are legally obliged to show a true reflection of how you have condcuted your account. As a customer you were bound by the T & Cs as set out in your contract and duly responsible for any debbt or credoit histroy incurred in realtion to payment performance." I signed up on line and received T & Cs in the post but no copy of a contract. Since when are they legally obliged.

I really would like to have this default removed so hopefully someone can advise on my next step. Thanks.

[Surfer01]

As I was in dispute with Orange over the charges and they never replied, surely they should not have proceeded with a default and handing me over to the DCA. One and only default I have and it niggles as it was not my fault.