Unfair Administration Charge In RDE's T&C?

[lhfort01]

Hi Everyone

 

I have to admit, the information contained on this website has been more valuable than the “advice” received from some of the “professionals” I have consulted in the past few months. Keep-up the great work!

 

Anyway, in July 2007, I attended a Rich Dad Education [RDE] 3-day Property Course which, at the end, additional course packages were offered [at a discounted rate] to attendees. In view of the discount on the various course packages, I decided to sign-up for one of the packages [costing ~ £13,700.00] without, naively, reading RDE’s Terms & Conditions in detail.

 

Nevertheless, during the first 5 days following the above signing, RDE informed me that they were not in a position to:

 

(i) offer the selected courses on the chosen dates and

(ii) provide alternative dates for similar courses until 2008.

 

Needless to say, I found the aforementioned responses from RDE unsatisfactory, since I was never informed by the Company (at the time of signing the “agreement”) that I had to wait over 6 months to attend the required courses. Consequently, I instructed the Company [within their specified 10-day “grace” period] to cancel my application, and requested a full refund.

 

Not surprisingly, following protracted communications with RDE, the Company finally refunded my payment in September 2007 LESS 5% [£685.00] for Administration Costs! RDE claims that their Terms & Conditions state that “upon cancellation of any Training Package a 5% Administration Charge will be held back” and, therefore, they will not be refunding the Administration Charge. [interestingly, RDE never highlighted or explained the preceding Clause to me prior to the signing of the agreement!]

 

Frankly, I view the above disproportionate charge as a “penalty”, given RDE’s failure to meet their contractual obligation coupled with my cancellation within the “grace / cooling-off” period. Moreover, I am of the view that the Clause in the Company’s Terms & Conditions pertaining to the 5% Administration Charge [irrespective of when the candidate cancels the agreement] is, in essence, an unfair term in accordance with the Unfair Terms In Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999.

 

Needless to say, I would welcome advice from this Forum on the most appropriate approach for addressing the above matter with RDE.

 

Thanks, and I look forward to the Forum’s feedback.

 

With kind regards

 

Lionel

[buzby]

It is a shame this was a face-to-face encounter as the Distance Selling Arrangements would apply. however I can accept a 5% cancellation to be fair after the provision of a service, if they've not actually supplied anything, I would expect at least 14-21 days 'grace' for you to check that you were getting what you signed up for.

 

I'd write back, nothing what they've told you, but explain your dissatisfaction is in their inability to provide the service within a realistic timeframe. Because of this and in view of your immediate cancellation request when you found it was going to be 6 months before the course started, you require a full refund, and may consider rejoining if you are unable to obtain a similar service during the intervening period.

[lhfort01]

Hi Everyone

 

In light of my fruitless discussions with RDE, it was concluded that I should take legal action against the company. To this end, I have drafted a POC and appended a copy hereunder. Needless to say, I would welcome the forum's feedback on the aforementioned "document" (ie, POC).

 

****************** Draft Copy Of POC *********************

 

IN HARROW MAGISTRATES’ COURT

BETWEEN:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lionel Henry Fortune

(Claimant)

 

 

- and -

 

 

Rich Dad Education

(Defendant)

 

 

 

 

 

Particulars Of Claim

 

 

 

 

 

 

Preamble

 

1. The Claimant entered into an agreement [“The Agreement”] with the Defendant on the 22nd July 2007, whereby the Defendant offered Advanced Training Courses [the “Platinum Package”] to the Claimant for a total fee of £13,744.00.

 

2. “The Agreement” essentially consisted of the Defendant providing the Claimant with tuition in 4 advanced training classes [which comprised “Creative Financing”, “Buy-To-Let”, “Lease Option”, “Rich U”] and a “Mentorship” program.

 

3. To qualify for the discounted price

, the Defendant insisted that the total sum of £13,744.00 must be paid in full, and The Agreement signed, on the 22-07-07.

 

4. Given the Claimant’s experience in Property Investing, the Defendant led the Claimant to believe that the courses within the Platinum Package can be completed within a period of 3 months from The Agreement date. Moreover, at no time ~ prior to signing The Agreement ~ did the Defendant inform the Claimant that the schedule for completing the aforementioned training course(s) may exceed 3 months.

 

5. At no time did the Defendant highlight or explain ~ to the Claimant ~ the implications of any of the terms [refer to Exhibit “A” in the bundle] in The Agreement.

 

Summary

 

6. The Claimant claims that, on the 23-07-07 and in contrast with the Claimant’s understanding in Paragraph 4 above, the Defendant failed to provide a satisfactory and/or acceptable schedule for the completion of the said training courses [refer to Exhibit “D” in the bundle].

 

7. The Claimant states that, as a result of the Defendant’s failure to provide a satisfactory schedule [as noted in Paragraph 6 above], justifiable grounds existed to cancel the Agreement within the Defendant’s stipulated 10-day “cooling-off” period; to this end, the Defendant was notified of the cancellation on the 30th July 2007 and requested a full refund of the fees paid on the 22-07-07.

 

8. On the 20-09-07, the Defendant informed the Claimant that a refund was made to the Claimant’s account less [ie, £685.00], which was alleged to be an Administration Charge [“The Charge”].

 

9. The Claimant contends that The Charge [£685.00] applied to the Claimant’s refund:

 

(a) Is punitive in nature;

(b) Is not a genuine estimate of costs incurred by the Defendant;

© Exceeds any alleged actual loss to the Defendant in respect of the justifiable cancellation of The Agreement by the Claimant; and

(d) Is not intended to represent or related to any alleged loss but, instead, unduly enriches the Defendant which exercises the contractual term in respect of such charges with a view to profit.

 

10. The claimant contends, per Scammell v. Ouston (1941), as the terms pertaining to the completion period of the training courses were not made know in the Agreement, and not specified to the Claimant, that no contract may exist.

 

11. The Claimant further contends that there was no meeting-of-minds owing to the lack of notice of terms provided by the Defendant and, therefore, no contract may exist.

 

13. Furthermore, the claimant contends that any contract term purporting to include such a measure is prohibited and therefore void per the Unfair Terms & Conditions In Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999, No 2083; in particular, Section 5 which states:

 

(a) A contractual term which has not been individually negotiated shall be regarded as unfair if, contrary to the requirement of good faith, it causes a significant imbalance in the parties' rights and obligations arising under the contract, to the detriment of the consumer.

 

(b) A term shall always be regarded as not having been individually negotiated where it has been drafted in advance and the consumer has therefore not been able to influence the substance of the term.

 

The Regulations

 

14. At all material times the Claimant was a consumer within the Regulations.

 

15. At all material times the term within the Agreement providing for The Charge was unfair within Section 5 of the Regulations in that contrary to the requirement of good faith they caused a significant imbalance in the parties' rights and obligations to the detriment of the Claimant.

 

16. Without prejudice to the burden of proof, the Claimant will refer to the following matters in support of the contention that the terms are to be assessed as unfair as at the time of the conclusion of the Agreement.

 

(a) The terms relating to The Charge were standard terms; they were not individually negotiated.

 

(b) The Charge is a penalty given that the Agreement was terminated ~ by the Claimant ~ on justifiable grounds [resulting from the failure of the Defendant to provide a satisfactory / acceptable schedule for the completion of the training course(s)], and within the Defendant’s stipulated 10-day “cooling-off” period.

 

© The Charge exceeded the costs which the Defendant could have expected to incur in dealing with the cancellation of The Agreement within the stated 10-day period.

 

(d) Accordingly, The Charge was a disproportionate penalty incurred by the Claimant for the Defendant’s failure to meet their implicit contractual obligation and thus within the ambit of Schedule 2 (1) (e) of the Regulations and indicative of an unfair term.

 

(e) As the Defendant knew, the Charge was of subsidiary importance to the Claimant in the context of the Agreement as a whole and would not influence the making of the Agreement.

 

(f) As the Defendant knew the Claimant had no means of assessing the fairness of the Charge at the time of signing the Agreement.

 

(g) In the premises, the effect of the Charge would be prejudicial to the Claimant who incurred it, and cause an imbalance in the relations of the parties to the Agreement by subordinating the Claimant’s interests to those of the Defendant in a way which was inequitable.

 

17. By reason of the said matters the terms were not binding under Section 8 of the Regulations.

 

18. The Claimant further argues that The Charge of £685.00 represents no liquidated damages and no liquidated damages owing to any breach have been provided by the Defendants.

 

19. The Claimant also contends that the contractual provision that permits the Defendant to levy such a Charge is unenforceable by virtue of the Common Law. The precedent for the law relating to contractual penalties was set in the case of Dunlop Pneumatic Tyre Ltd v. New Garage Motor Co Ltd [1915] AC 79. Additionally, in the case of Murray v. Leisureplay (2005) EWCA Civ 963, it was held that a contractual party may only recover damages in respect of its actual loss or liquidated losses.

 

As noted in the above cases, a charge is held to be a penalty if the sum stipulated for is extravagant and unconscionable in amount in comparison to the greatest loss that could conceivably be proved to have followed from the breach. Thus, the penalty clause is void in its entirety and unenforceable.

 

20. The Claimant states that the Defendant has no right to keep the monies withheld and demands their immediate return - they were not fees for any service nor damages allowed by the Agreement, existing or otherwise.

 

21. Accordingly, the Claimant claims:

 

 

(a) The return of the amount deducted by the Defendant in respect of penalty fees in the sum of £685.00;

 

(b) Payment of the said sum of £685.00 and fees/interest of £161.47 applied by the Claimant’s credit card provider thereon [refer to Exhibits “B” & “C” in the bundle];

 

© Court costs;

 

(d) Interest, under Section 69 County Courts Act (1984) at the rate of 8% a year, of £25.00 and also interest at the same rate up to the date of judgment or earlier payment at a daily rate of £0.06.

 

22. Save payments into and/or determined by the Court, any sums paid in settlement of this claim are required to be made by cheque, which should be made payable to and sent directly to the Claimant.

 

 

 

Statement of Truth

 

Dated this 27th November, 2007

 

I believe that the facts stated in these particulars of claim are true.

 

 

 

Signed:

 

 

 

Lionel Fortune

Claimant

*****************************************************

Thanks ~ in advance ~ for your feedback.

 

Regards

 

Lionel

[buzby]

Fairly comprehensive! You did send them an LBA first (and can prove it?) Just in case they try to argue you went in with guns blazing and didn't give them an opportunity to resolve the issue

[davethorp]

Shouldn't you be filing this in the county court rather than magistrates?

[lhfort01]

Fairly comprehensive! You did send them an LBA first (and can prove it?) Just in case they try to argue you went in with guns blazing and didn't give them an opportunity to resolve the issue

 

Hi Buzby

 

Thanks for your feedback. I can confirm that there have been a plethora of correspondence between RDE and myself in the past 5 months; and the company has indeed been given the opportunity to bring this matter to a satisfactory conclusion. Unfortunately, despite the threat of legal action, they chose not to respond positively to my request for a full refund.

 

Regards

 

Lionel

[lhfort01]

Shouldn't you be filing this in the county court rather than magistrates?

 

Hi Davethorp

Thanks for your feedback; I will investigate this further.

Regards

Lionel

[lhfort01]

Hi Everyone

I have just received the following reply from RDE in connection with my decision to pursue this matter in Court.

Judging from RDE’s response, I am inclined to conclude that this is one of those threatening letter to infuse fear in the Plaintiff? Nevertheless, your feedback on this will be greatly appreciated.

 

**********************************

Dear Mr Fortune

 

Rich Dad Education's refund policy is clearly stated on the Student Agreement in which you signed, so are the terms and conditions of the contract.

 

Rich Dad Education holds the contract live for 12 months as stipulated and that as according to your own Exhibit 3 Rich Dad Education has easily complied with the contract. This is quite apparent in section 2 of the payment Policy, and has been reviewed both by our legal representatives and the trading Standards authority prior to production.

 

We will be therefore be more than happy to defend the contract, and as per the signed contract Rich Dad Education will instigate the Jurisdiction and Venue clause subsequently relocating the claim to a venue convenient to Rich Dad Education. Rich Dad Education will also claim all costs associated with the case both for administration and professional fees.

 

Regards

 

Bethan Cryer

 

Rich Dad Education

 

Merlin House

20 Belmont Terrace

Chiswick W4 5UG

DL: +44 208 996 6737

 

Registration no: 6166057

**********************************

 

Thanks

Lionel

[lhfort01]

Hi Everyone...

I can confirm that Rich Dad Education Ltd has settled my claim in full!

Thanks for your support, and keep "fighting" the good fight!

Regards

Lionel

[Conniff]

Nice one - so you really are a rich dad now.

[lhfort01]

Nice one - so you really are a rich dad now.

 

Hi Conniff

 

Thanks for your feedback.

 

I suppose the settlement (in full) of all "claims" will eventually count towards that goal of becoming "rich"?

 

Have a GREAT Easter!

 

Regards

 

Lionel

[Lancearmpong]

Hi

I recently signed up to a Rich Dad training course and paid a £4,000 deposit. I decided to cancel within the 10 day cooling off period. RDE have written to me to confirm they have accepted my right to cancel but have asked me to sign a letter which confirmed their right to charge me admin fees which will "not exceed 5%". The letter also contains the following slightly worrying clauses:

 

"By my signature I agree with the terms descibed above and acknowledge that Rich Dad Education Ltd has handled this matter to my complete satisfaction. Furthermore, I shall keep the existence and terms of this refund settlement strictly confidential. Neither party shall divulge said terms to any third party in any matter."

 

I phoned them to say that I would not sign anything until I knew exactly what they were intending to charge me, the reasons for the charge and how long it would take to process my refund. They have responded by stating that I will be charged 2.5% banking charges and 2.5% for time incurred by RD in processing my refund making a total of 5%. Armed with the information in this post (many thanks!) I have refused to agree to these terms - I am awaiting their response.

 

My questions are as follows:

- is it worth me pursuing them through the small claims court to recover the full £4,000 they owe me or should I swallow the £200 (or whatever they reduce it to) admin charge and put it down to experience?

- should I sign the letter with the additional terms and conditions given I have already signed an agreement with them?

 

Thanks

[lhfort01]

Dear Lancearmpong

In my case (as noted above), I pursued RDE for a FULL refund [even if it meant taking legal action!]. And, not surprisingly, RDE made the decision to settle the matter "out-of-court" [naturally, a wise decison on their part].

Interestingly, RDE also sent me a similar letter for my signature. Needless to say, I declined to sign the foregoing document, and threatened to take the Company to Court for a FULL refund.

Incidentally, I don't think RDE's admin charges are fair. And, as Consumers, we should make every effort to ensure that these companies" [including RDE] are aware that we are not prepared to accept their ludicrous "penalties" [particularly when you cancelled the application within the grace period].

Good luck in your decision!

lhfort01

[Lancearmpong]

Dear lhfort01

Thanks for your response. It is clear to me that the clause in question falls foul of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 as the 5% charge is clearly disproportionate (£100 bank charges plus £100 admin charges to refund £4000 - ludicrous). I intend to pursue them for the full £4000. Given the size of my claim, if they were not prepared to settle out of court, would this be something that I could pursue through the small claims court?

[legalpickle]

Dear lhfort01

Thanks for your response. It is clear to me that the clause in question falls foul of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 as the 5% charge is clearly disproportionate (£100 bank charges plus £100 admin charges to refund £4000 - ludicrous). I intend to pursue them for the full £4000. Given the size of my claim, if they were not prepared to settle out of court, would this be something that I could pursue through the small claims court?

The small claims limit is £5,000 including interest at the date of the claim but excluding the court fees.

 

However as somebody pointed out elsewhere, a "small claim" does not necessarily proceeding on the "small claims track". You don't issue the claim in a small claims court as such, you issue it in the County Court on a N1. However for your claim I doubt very much - if they were to defend the claim - that it would proceed on anything less than the small claims track, if you were to claim less than £5k.

 

When and if you issue the claim, also claim interest at 8% per annum from the date of payment, pursuant to s69 of the County Courts Act 1984.

 

Please keep us posted.

 

Good Luck.

[Lancearmpong]

RDE have now asked me to communicate my response in writing. I have drafted the reply below - any thoughts before I send it much appreciated.

 

I may well be wrong here but I noticed when re-reading the contract that the clause which theoretically allows them to claim 5% as an admin charge appears to have been misdrafted. It says the following:

 

“Any refund awarded will be subject to Banking and administration charges, and will be levied against payment but will not exceed 5% of any separate transaction charges.”

 

Surely this means that they can only charge me 5% of the charges they have incurred? For example, if they have incurred £200 charges then they can only charge me £10. I have reflected this point of view in my response below:

 

On 5th September I sent you written confirmation of my intention to cancel my agreement with Rich Dad Education signed on 31st August. You responded on 8th September confirming that, as I was within the 10 day cancellation period, you will provide me with a refund. You also requested that I sign a letter to allow you to deduct all fees applicable to the processing of the payment which would not exceed 5%. I have now had confirmation that you intend to charge me the full 5% (£200) to cover bank charges and administration costs. This charge is excessive, unreasonable and, as such, is effectively a cancellation penalty. In addition, I would like to bring your attention to the following:

- I cancelled within 5 working days of the agreement

- When I asked what the cancellation terms were I was told that I would receive a full refund within the 10 working days “cooling off” period – no mention was made of any cancellation charge

- I was not given an opportunity to take the contract away and read it contract properly before signing as there was significant pressure to sign up to obtain the discounts on offer.

 

I have reviewed the contract and, specifically, Clause 4 under Payment Policy which states that “Any refund awarded will be subject to Banking and administration charges, and will be levied against payment but will not exceed 5% of any separate transaction charges.” This clause states that the maximum I will be charged will be 5% of any charges which you incur not 5% of the amount outstanding. Hence if you have incurred £200 in charges (highly unlikely) then the maximum you can charge me is 5% of £200 which is £10.

 

I have also been asked to sign a letter which has additional clauses which were not in the original agreement, namely:

 

"By my signature I agree with the terms described above and acknowledge that Rich Dad Education Ltd has handled this matter to my complete satisfaction. Furthermore, I shall keep the existence and terms of this refund settlement strictly confidential. Neither party shall divulge said terms to any third party in any matter."

 

I do not see why I need to sign a letter with these additional clauses which would appear only to act in your favour and severely disadvantage me. Furthermore this letter would appear to amend the contract terms to allow you to charge the full 5% admin charge and hence refuse to sign it.

 

In conclusion, I refuse to pay the 5% charge or sign the letter and require that my refund is paid in full within 7 working days of this letter. If you decline to process my full refund within this time I will have no option but to pursue a legal action to recover my costs.

[legalpickle]

RDE have now asked me to communicate my response in writing. I have drafted the reply below - any thoughts before I send it much appreciated.

 

I may well be wrong here but I noticed when re-reading the contract that the clause which theoretically allows them to claim 5% as an admin charge appears to have been misdrafted. It says the following:

 

“Any refund awarded will be subject to Banking and administration charges, and will be levied against payment but will not exceed 5% of any separate transaction charges.”

 

Surely this means that they can only charge me 5% of the charges they have incurred? For example, if they have incurred £200 charges then they can only charge me £10. I have reflected this point of view in my response below:

Whilst you may be right and this term is problematic, I recommend you keep the letter as simple as possible. The more arguments you raise, the more defences they will try to raise. These people are experienced crooks, and are likely to try and trip you up. Keep it simple.

 

Dear Sirs,

 

On 5th September I sent you written confirmation of my intention to cancel my agreement with Rich Dad Education signed on 31st August. You responded on 8th September confirming that, as I was within the 10 day cancellation period, you will provide me with a refund. You also requested that I sign a letter to allow you to deduct all fees applicable to the processing of the payment which would not exceed 5%. I have now had confirmation that you intend to charge me the full 5% (£200) to cover bank charges and administration costs. This charge is excessive, unreasonable and, as such, is effectively a cancellation penalty. In addition, I would like to bring your attention to the following:

- I cancelled within 5 working days of the agreement

- When I asked what the cancellation terms were I was told that I would receive a full refund within the 10 working days “cooling off” period – no mention was made of any cancellation charge

- I was not given an opportunity to take the contract away and read it contract properly before signing as there was significant pressure to sign up to obtain the discounts on offer.

So far so good.

 

I have reviewed the contract and, specifically, Clause 4 under Payment Policy which states that “Any refund awarded will be subject to Banking and administration charges, and will be levied against payment but will not exceed 5% of any separate transaction charges.” This clause states that the maximum I will be charged will be 5% of any charges which you incur not 5% of the amount outstanding. Hence if you have incurred £200 in charges (highly unlikely) then the maximum you can charge me is 5% of £200 which is £10.

As per my recommendation above, I recommend changing this to.

 

I contend that the 5% charge is an unreasonable penalty. As the "course" you provide is not personalized to specific persons, and my cancellation was so near the signing of the contract, I contend that you will not be incurring any charges from your financial institution. Even if you are, I contend that 5% is nothing less than a rip-off and extortion, as no financial institution charges such a penalty for cashing and making cheques out, indeed such charges are about 40p per transaction beyond 12 to 24 months of free banking. I therefore contend that this charge is blatantly illegal.

 

I have also been asked to sign a letter which has additional clauses which were not in the original agreement, namely:

 

"By my signature I agree with the terms described above and acknowledge that Rich Dad Education Ltd has handled this matter to my complete satisfaction. Furthermore, I shall keep the existence and terms of this refund settlement strictly confidential. Neither party shall divulge said terms to any third party in any matter."

 

I do not see why I need to sign a letter with these additional clauses which would appear only to act in your favour and severely disadvantage me. Furthermore this letter would appear to amend the contract terms to allow you to charge the full 5% admin charge and hence refuse to sign it.

In accordance with my recommendations above, I recommend removing the last sentence of this. In fact replace the sentences in response to this to:

 

I fail to understand why I should sign a letter with an additional clause which will not allow me to disclose your blatant rip-off to other persons to advise them of your terrible customer service.

 

I further fail to understand why I should sign a letter to waive my legal rights, when you have not done anything to deserve this. If you wish for me to sign a contract that these details are not disclosed to anybody then you will have to pay me for such a service, the cost of which will be £750.

 

In conclusion, I refuse to pay the 5% charge or sign the letter and require that my refund is paid in full within 7 working days of this letter. If you decline to process my full refund within this time I will have no option but to pursue a legal action to recover my costs.

Almost there. I recommend changing this to:

 

In conclusion, should I not receive the full refund with absolutely no deductions taken, within 7 days, I will have no choice but to issue court action against Rich Dad Education Limited to recoup all my losses plus interest [at 8% per annum pursuant to s69 of the County Courts Act 1984], court fees and any other costs I may incur in the process.

 

Should you wish for me to sign a confidentiality clause, please send a separate cheque of £750 and upon clearance I will send you by special delivery a confidentiality clause signed.

 

Sincerely,

 

....

 

 

 

I recommend addressing it to:

The Directors Office,

Rich Dad Education Limited,

Ground Floor, Merlin House,

Belmont Terrace,

London,

W4 5UG

 

 

Send all letters by Special Delivery [not Recorded Delivery] and keep originals of all related documents.

 

Please keep us posted & Best of Luck!

[Lancearmpong]

Legalpickle

Thanks very much for your help with this. I have a few questions about your suggested amendments which I hope you don't mind me asking.

 

- I understand your view that the letter should be as simple as possible but if the clause referring to the 5% admin fee in the contract is drafted in such a way that it prevents them from levying the full 5% charge (unless I sign the letter which amends this clause) is it not crucial to my argument to mention this?

 

- Whilst I like the idea of levying a charge on them isn't the suggestion of them paying me £750 to comply with their requirement for confidentiality a bit "over the top" and likely to antagonise them?

 

- I was intending to fax the letter to them. Do you think it is better to send it Special Delivery?

 

Thanks again for your help.

[legalpickle]

Legalpickle

Thanks very much for your help with this. I have a few questions about your suggested amendments which I hope you don't mind me asking.

No probs, will try to answer as best as possible.

 

- I understand your view that the letter should be as simple as possible but if the clause referring to the 5% admin fee in the contract is drafted in such a way that it prevents them from levying the full 5% charge (unless I sign the letter which amends this clause) is it not crucial to my argument to mention this?

No. Because this clause is unclear and could be construed to work in their favour. Ignore the clauses, the fact that it is blatantly unlawful at minimum, but illegal in our opinion and the basic reasons for that is all that matters.

 

- Whilst I like the idea of levying a charge on them isn't the suggestion of them paying me £750 to comply with their requirement for confidentiality a bit "over the top" and likely to antagonise them?

No & Yes. It will antagonize them, but no more than refusing to pay or sign their blatantly one-sided agreement, and there's nothing they can do about. If they can rip you off for services, why can't you rip them off? I know this was covered with bank charges and the imposed terms by banks on claimants when settling. There is nothing wrong with this, you are not compelling them into agreeing to this, only advising them that that's what you charge for such a service!

 

- I was intending to fax the letter to them. Do you think it is better to send it Special Delivery?

Always better to send by special delivery, but under the circumstances, I don't think fax should be a problem if it is sent by fax and first class post.

 

State below the address "BY FAX TO ... & 1st CLASS POST"

 

Thanks again for your help.

No problemo.

[Lancearmpong]

Good news!! I sent the letter to RDE by Special Delivery last Wednesday and received a call yesterday stating that the full £4,000 would be credited back to my credit card today (Wed). I have just received another call stating that the refund was done at 10.45 and that I would be receiving a letter in the next day or so to confirm this. Their tone was almost apologetic and they seemed very keen to let me know how quickly it would be done to ensure I didn't start proceedings.

 

I'll now share this info with the other people I know who are pursuing a refund.

 

Thanks so much for all your help in this.

[webwitch1]

Hi All,

I am another one who was suckered into this and signed up for I think 14k of training spanning it over several credit cards.

I had a massive panic on - knew it wasn't right for me and rung up each credit card company to cancel at 1am that night/morning in floods of tears.

RDE had already taken £7300 by 5pm of the last day of that 3 day course. Talk about quick!

 

I have folowed the information on here and sent letters. They arenow saying that they will as a 'goodwill' gesture reduce the admin fees down to 2.5% and that doesn't cover their admin costs(?!) and only covers part of the credit card charges.

 

I actually cancelled the agreement that evening with the credit card companies and put a stop on all my cards (what a pain). Then wrote my letter and sent it to RDE.

 

Even though some of the money had been authorised by one credit card company (about 4k), I asked for RDE not to draw down the money (as cc company told me to ask them) and then I wouldn't get charged, but still RDE drew down the money!

 

This is my angle, on trying to get the fees reduced - plus 5% is very high!!

 

In their 2nd response to my 2nd letter, they state that the banking charges are 3.5% for mastercard and then they charge 1.5% for their (RDE) admin costs.

 

So now they are offering me a refund of £7117.50

I refuse to sign anything on their letters and am trying to get the whole lot back but am now stuck.

 

I can scan in the letters if you like and post them on here - but they are really long to be copying and typing out.

 

Please can someone help me out with getting the full amount back? I threatened legal action in the last letter and they have ignored it.

 

I have actually been burying my head in the sand (5 months pregnant, worried about money etc) but in WAYYY over my head here and hiding it from my husband.

 

Please help! Thanks

 

Webby

x

[legalpickle]

Hi All,

I am another one who was suckered into this and signed up for I think 14k of training spanning it over several credit cards.

I had a massive panic on - knew it wasn't right for me and rung up each credit card company to cancel at 1am that night/morning in floods of tears.

RDE had already taken £7300 by 5pm of the last day of that 3 day course. Talk about quick!

 

I have folowed the information on here and sent letters. They arenow saying that they will as a 'goodwill' gesture reduce the admin fees down to 2.5% and that doesn't cover their admin costs(?!) and only covers part of the credit card charges.

 

I actually cancelled the agreement that evening with the credit card companies and put a stop on all my cards (what a pain). Then wrote my letter and sent it to RDE.

 

Even though some of the money had been authorised by one credit card company (about 4k), I asked for RDE not to draw down the money (as cc company told me to ask them) and then I wouldn't get charged, but still RDE drew down the money!

 

This is my angle, on trying to get the fees reduced - plus 5% is very high!!

 

In their 2nd response to my 2nd letter, they state that the banking charges are 3.5% for mastercard and then they charge 1.5% for their (RDE) admin costs.

 

So now they are offering me a refund of £7117.50

I refuse to sign anything on their letters and am trying to get the whole lot back but am now stuck.

 

I can scan in the letters if you like and post them on here - but they are really long to be copying and typing out.

 

Please can someone help me out with getting the full amount back? I threatened legal action in the last letter and they have ignored it.

 

I have actually been burying my head in the sand (5 months pregnant, worried about money etc) but in WAYYY over my head here and hiding it from my husband.

 

Please help! Thanks

 

Webby

x

Webby,

 

It is against CAG rules to hijack another thread.

 

Please start your own thread in the relevant part of CAG and PM me a link to that thread - do NOT PM me details of the situation, ONLY a link to your thread - and I will attempt to assist.

 

In your new thread please upload and attach all documents - minus confidential details - and give a full breakdown as to what has happened since day one including the dates.

 

Regards,

legalpickle

[Lancearmpong]

Webby

I sent the letter below by recorded delivery following help from the kind people on this site. They refunded me in full within a couple of days of receiving it and were pretty apologetic. I suspect they get people threatening legal action all the time then just coughing up the "admin charge" for a quiet life. Try not to get stressed about this. I am not a lawyer but I am confident, given their response to my letter below, that they know their agreement is not enforeceable and they don't want a judgement against them.

 

Take care out there!

 

On 5th September I sent you written confirmation of my intention to cancel my agreement with Rich Dad Education signed on 31st August. You responded on 8th September confirming that, as I was within the 10 day cancellation period, you will provide me with a refund. You also requested that I sign a letter to allow you to deduct all fees applicable to the processing of the payment which would not exceed 5%. I have now had confirmation that you intend to charge me the full 5% (£200) to cover bank charges and administration costs. This charge is excessive, unreasonable and, as such, is effectively a cancellation penalty. In addition, I would like to bring your attention to the following:

- I cancelled within 5 working days of the agreement

- When I asked what the cancellation terms were I was told that I would receive a full refund within the 10 working days “cooling off” period – no mention was made of any cancellation charge

- I was not given an opportunity to take the contract away and read it contract properly before signing as there was significant pressure to sign up to obtain the discounts on offer.

 

I contend that the 5% charge is an unreasonable penalty. As the "course" you provide is not personalized to specific persons, and my cancellation was so near the signing of the contract, I contend that you will not be incurring any charges from your financial institution. Even if you are, I contend that 5% is nothing less than a rip-off and extortion, as no financial institution charges such a penalty for cashing and making cheques out, indeed such charges are about 40p per transaction beyond 12 to 24 months of free banking. I therefore contend that this charge is blatantly illegal.

 

I have also been asked to sign a letter which has additional clauses which were not in the original agreement, namely:

 

"By my signature I agree with the terms described above and acknowledge that Rich Dad Education Ltd has handled this matter to my complete satisfaction. Furthermore, I shall keep the existence and terms of this refund settlement strictly confidential. Neither party shall divulge said terms to any third party in any matter."

 

I fail to understand why I should sign a letter with an additional clause which will not allow me to disclose your blatant rip-off to other persons to advise them of your terrible customer service.

 

I further fail to understand why I should sign a letter to waive my legal rights, when you have not done anything to deserve this. If you wish for me to sign a contract that these details are not disclosed to anybody then you will have to pay me for such a service, the cost of which will be £750.

 

In conclusion, should I not receive the full refund with absolutely no deductions taken, within 7 days, I will have no choice but to issue court action against Rich Dad Education Limited to recoup all my losses plus interest [at 8% per annum pursuant to s69 of the County Courts Act 1984], court fees and any other costs I may incur in the process.

 

Should you wish for me to sign a confidentiality clause, please send a separate cheque of £750 and upon clearance I will send you by special delivery a confidentiality clause signed.

[webwitch1]

Sorry leglapickle - didn't realise I was hijacking another thread. I have been told off in the past on another forum for starting a new thread along same subject lines. Apologies!!

 

Lancearmpong - thanks for the info, it was actually your letter I followed I don't mind PM'ing you a link to new thread too if you want?

 

Because of the postal strikes the lady I am dealing with (different from yours) has given me her e-mail address to send the reply too.

 

Maybe I am half way there with them reducing it to 2.5%! I just need that money back, luckily I have disputed this through the cc companies too (both not doing a thing though and say because I am in chats with RDE I need to carry on myself) but not currently being charged interest on the lot.

 

Still I feel it's a massive weight holding over me at the moment and need it closed. I'll stop and start a new thread.

 

Thanks again

Webby

x

[Lancearmpong]

Please do - I'll help where I can although it is legalpickle who is the expert here and who helped me.