HFC & Amex- they didn't reply to my CCA request!

[ScarletPimpernel]

All I can see is little red crosses...

[zhanzhibar]

Hi Scarlet

 

Can you not see all the letters I scan above?

[ScarletPimpernel]

Nope. It might be the useless office computer. I'll have a look when I get home, and see if they are as amusing as my Amex letters!

[Gez]

I can see them. Your computer might be blocking images.

[ScarletPimpernel]

Seen. Not the same as mine, which are much earlier.

[zhanzhibar]

What do you all think? Does what they send me considered as credit agreement? I am especially cheesed off when they increased the debt by £1100 ish re"collection costs"

[ScarletPimpernel]

Brachers refer to 'collection costs pursuant to your credit agreement'. Do you have the bit of the terms and conditions that refers to these charges? I suspect these will be unenforceable.

[zhanzhibar]

Hiya,

Nope I don't have the T&C and I have gone through the 13 pages of that so-called credit agreement & there is nothing there that said about collection costs?

[zhanzhibar]

Having calm down & read the whole things again, I have a few questions if anybody could answer:

 

1) I sent my CCA request end of June 07 & only now they provide me with something. Obviously they have gone way past the 12 working days deadline to give me my copy of CCA. Haven't they broken a law by doing that?

2) The bit in the letter from Amex above:

"Please note tht the Cons Credit Agreemt 1974 (electronic Agreements) Order 2004 & the Consumer Crdit Act 1974 (Electronic communication) Order 2004 amended the old Consumer Crdit 1974 to allow consumer credit agreements to be concluded electronically"

Is this right? Can they do that?

3) This is actually the first time I see that 13 pages of the credit agreemnt & I did not sign anything there unless of coz they assume I have signed if (2) above is valid. Does it mens that it is therefore that the agreement is enforceable?

4) What about those harassment phone calls & letters from Newman? What do I do with them?

[citizenB]

I have no knowledge regarding the enforceablity or not of the CCA. However as regards to Harrasment you can write to Trading Standards and tell them about your experience with Newmans.

[citizenB]

duplicated post, sorry

[zhanzhibar]

Thanks for the advice,citizenB.

[zhanzhibar]

Having calm down & read the whole things again, I have a few questions if anybody could answer:

 

1) I sent my CCA request end of June 07 & only now they provide me with something. Obviously they have gone way past the 12 working days deadline to give me my copy of CCA. Haven't they broken a law by doing that?

2) The bit in the letter from Amex above:

"Please note tht the Cons Credit Agreemt 1974 (electronic Agreements) Order 2004 & the Consumer Crdit Act 1974 (Electronic communication) Order 2004 amended the old Consumer Crdit 1974 to allow consumer credit agreements to be concluded electronically"

Is this right? Can they do that?

3) This is actually the first time I see that 13 pages of the credit agreemnt & I did not sign anything there unless of coz they assume I have signed if (2) above is valid. Does it mens that it is therefore that the agreement is enforceable?

4) What about those harassment phone calls & letters from Newman? What do I do with them?

 

 

Bump anyone .. can somebody tell me whether the letter fom Amex in post 121 (& quote no (2) here) is correct?

[Docman]

Hi Zan

The electronic regs are new to me as well, so it might be worth posting this as a new thread in legal issues.

I had to do a bit of research but it does appear that the 2004 Regulations have amended the CCA 1974 by inserting the words 'by an appropriate means' in a number of places.

Brachers are a reasonable sized law firm, not an ‘in-house’ solicitor so I am surprised about the additional charges but I think that can be looked at when we have considered the electronic regulations themselves. One point though, can I ask when you 'signed up’ for the Amex card? I couldn't see a date on the letters or print outs.

[ScarletPimpernel]

The additional charges feature on all Amex accounts that are passed to DCAs. Amex seem reluctant to provide their T&Cs showing that the charges have a contractual basis. In any case, they almost certainly don't conform to the requirements of the OFT Guidance. In many cases, they seem to be used as a negotiation tool.

[zhanzhibar]

Hi Docman

 

Thanks for replying. As to when I signed up for the Amex card, to be honest I can't remember but looking at the application form that they sent me (middle column, the one that said "App recvd date", looks like around 2006, not that long ago )

Yep, okay I will create a new thread in the legal issues forum coz I have a few more queries about this other than the one I asked above like e.g. can they accrued interest when account is disputed?

Will let you all know my new thread once I created it.

[zhanzhibar]

Hi All

 

Just to let you know I have created a new thread in the legal issues forum zhanzhibar vs Amex/AIC/Newman/ Brachers Solicitors

[jax007]

Hi Guys

 

Am new to posting on this site but have visited many a time. I would have introduced myself in the Welcome section but sadly couldn't find it!! Anyways have been directed here via RUC

 

Have been reading up avidly on this topic and have a couple of questions I hope someone can help me with please...

 

1. After the 12-day deadline to produce CCA do you write giving CC Co a further 30 days or do you just sit and wait it out?

 

2. After the full 42 days and no CCA is produced and you stop paying the monthly instalments, can a default be put on your credit file and if so how can you get it removed?

 

3. What is OC, NoA and DoA?

 

4. I think I read somewhere that if you get taken to court and win, that you could offer to pay 10% of the debt. Did I read this right and if so why would you do that?

 

God you really do have to have nerves of steel to carry this one off .........!!

 

Regards and thank you

[rory32]

Hi jax007 and welcome to CAG. Have a read here to help you find your way around the site.

 

It's best if you start your own thread on your situation as your posts will get lost on this thread.

1. After the 12-day deadline to produce CCA do you write giving CC Co a further 30 days or do you just sit and wait it out?

You just wait. They are aware of their legal obligations.

2. After the full 42 days and no CCA is produced and you stop paying the monthly instalments, can a default be put on your credit file and if so how can you get it removed?

You can actually stop paying after the 12 working days as this is when they default on supplying the request. While a default can be placed on your file normally people in this position would have been defaulted anyway because they are having payment difficulties. The default can be removed but it's often a fairly long process.

3. What is OC, NoA and DoA?

OC = Original Creditor

NoA = Notice of Assignment

DoA = Deed of Assignment

4. I think I read somewhere that if you get taken to court and win, that you could offer to pay 10% of the debt. Did I read this right and if so why would you do that?

No you didn't read this correctly. If you get taken to court and win then generally people offer them nothing. The 10% figure is suggested if you want to make a Full and Final settlement where there is no copy of the agreement and the OC has admitted this but you are doing this in return for them removing any adverse credit history on the account from your credit file.

[lottery-loser]

subscribing

[patrickq1]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/33174-consumer-credit-act-agreements-588.html#post1521447

bit of help on starting a new thread for this person rory would be apreciated then see if we can sort out his probs

patrickq1

[MAN-IN-FINANCIAL-JUNGLE]

Hi VV,

 

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying! It serves no useful purpose whatsoever to send any letters to OC's/DCA's once a CCA request has been made! In fact, if anything it will have a detrimental effect on your case! I have been making this point till I'm blue in the face and unfortunately some people on here are giving contrary advice, when they know nothing about the litigation process! Nobody can afford to take a narrow view of a situation once pmt problems start, you have to look ahead from a well rounded perspective. Hence why I say start preparing for a Court claim to be issued from day one!

 

Consider the following two scenarios:

 

A CCA request is sent to an OC. They don't comply either with the 12 w/d and go beyond the 1 mnth period, so they commit an offence. Having been told by people on here to pester the life out of the OC/DCA until you get an agreement or confirmation that one no longer exists, you start firing off letters after the offence has been committed. Within 2 months (for example) and after various letters you've sent, they provide you with an agreement. Lets for arguments sake assume it's enforceable, they then issue a claim and get Judgment, because aside from a few penalty charges totalling £300, you don't have a case against them, The fact that they didn't provide the agreement for 3mnths, is neither here nor there. So it's all over, they win and you end up paying them forever and a day and if you're really lucky they'll put a Charging Order on your

property for good measure!

 

Then there's the second scenario that for some bizarre reason I seem to be the only person (from what I've seen) advocating!

 

The CCA request is sent to the OC and the deadlines come and go and they don't respond, in fact by all appearances the request has been completely ignored, which is great news, it's time to start monitoring everything the OC does! They send all manner of threatening letters and phone calls are being received 6 days a week, on average 8 times a day, all logged of course! You answer the calls, but refuse to go through security and tell them each time they ring to put everything in writing. You don't mention the CCA request on the phone, in fact you don't tell them anything about laws they've broken, you simply carry on making a record of all calls and in particular any abuse you're subjected to. The calls continue for 6mnths and then they stop suddenly. They sell the debt on to one of the lovely DCA's, having still not provided the agreement, but we're not remotely concerned about that! They start bombading you with letters and calls, both of which are much more threatening. You continue doing what you did with the OC. After 5mnths, they issue a Court claim. In your Defence you can confidently state that you requested an agreement 11mnths ago, (which you can prove because you have the g/d slip and it was signed for on ???) which hasn't been furnished. So, the OC has unlawfully sold the alleged debt on whilst being in default of the request and that's for starters..... You have been unlawfully harassed by letter and phone by both the OC/DCA in the absence of an agreement. The DCA has processed your personal info unlawfully under the Data Protection Act 1998, as they had no legal right to do so because the OC had no legal right to sell the debt. There are other offences under the DPA 98 also, but I haven't got time to list them all! lol You haven't been provided with a DoA, so they haven't proved a right to issue a claim. The NoA wasn't sent to you, so they can't enforce the alleged debt. When they do provide it, (as part of the proceedings) it's incorrect, so therefore unlawful on that basis also. It is a breach of confidence that your personal info has been provided to the DCA, which you can claim damages for. It is also an invasion of your privacy, which is covered by the Human Rights Act (HRA). They eventually get round to providing the agreement and it is enforceable, but it doesn't matter, they can't get round the DoA or NoA, so they're screwed-oh dear! So as well as having a watertight defence, you have a c/c for harassment, breaches under the DPA, HRA and breach of confidence for which you will be seeking substantial damages of

course!

 

If it turns out to be case that the agreement isn't enforceable or no longer exists, then both the OC and DCA are in even bigger trouble, as neither of them have any legal right to process your personal info and you have been harassed for a debt that doesn't even exist! I think that damages claim has just increased even more.....! Oh and not forgetting, there is the small matter of the "agreement" not being produced in 11mnths or at all! Which is going to look worse to a Judge, an agreement not produced in 3mnths or 11mnths? And, by the same token what looks worse, an unenforceable agreement (UA) produced after nearly a year, accompanied by harassment and all the other unlawful acts, or a UA produced after three mnths, at which point a claim is issued, which deprives you of the opportunity of building a case against the OC?

 

So it all comes back to the issue of what to do when a creditor doesn't comply with a CCA request and the answer is simple.... do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!!! Ignore the advice of anyone who tells you otherwise, they don't know what they're talking about!

 

I hope this helps with your disputes!

 

Kind regards,

 

Laiste.

------------------------------------------------------------------

I am very impressed by your advice/info and thank you for same.

Could you let me know what to do if the bank does not provide you with S.A.R after 40 days have passed.

Your adivce would be much appreciated.

Kindest regards

Jungleman

[citizenB]

------------------------------------------------------------------

I am very impressed by your advice/info and thank you for same.

Could you let me know what to do if the bank does not provide you with S.A.R after 40 days have passed.

Your adivce would be much appreciated.

Kindest regards

Jungleman

 

If they havent replied to your SAR, then you can send them a non compliance letter or fill in a complaint form on the Information Commissioners Website.

[MAN-IN-FINANCIAL-JUNGLE]

Thank you for this info/advice.

Regards

Jungleman

[cashdesk]

In post 9 above, what do DoA and NoA refer to?