He hasn't got a PCN for parking on yellow lines he has been given a PCN for parking where waiting is not permitted by a traffic order so he clearly has broken the 'law'. The Council has a duty to place signs that convey the restriction to the motorist which in this case are yellow lines and maintain them. The only argument is over the maintenance of the lines not if he has parked where he shouldn't.

Who has been bullying you?

Nobody here is an adjudicator so its impossible to say if the appeal would be allowed or not. If you had a poll I'm sure it would be 50/50 between those who think you deserve a PCN and those who don't. Its your money to gamble, you did clearly park on yellow lines, will the adjudicator agree with you....only one way you will find out!

No, if he 'logged' it on his/her computer then it shows on the PCN as the 'from' time.

26 mins is more likely to be a casual observation, ie he noted the vehicle parked and returned 20+ minutes later to find it still there.

I mean't 9 including the driver but you are correct the thread has been a bit confusing!

You are talking out of your proverbial backside the Road Traffic Act 1988 doesn't trump all other legislation and simply defines a 'bus' in relation to the wearing of seat belts which once again has nothing to do with parking. You bought up Bus lanes not me and continue to use them to prove an incorrect point about 'bus stops', which you cannot park a 'coach' in despite your insistence. I told you the legal definition of 'parking' at the start of this thread and it was you that started waffling on about being in the vehicle and other non relevant points. The reason people get tickets isn't because Councils do not know the law its because drivers do not and refuse to accept the fact! Of course you are free to carry on thinking the RTA 1988 is the primary legislation for 'parking' when in fact there isn't a single mention of parking in it and ignore the fact you haven't a clue what you are on about because if you did you would not have asked what 'parking' was in the first place.

I give up, you are obviously the expert despite quoting a law you have never read as it doesn't exist, carry on parking your coach in bus stops but I suggest you find another forum if you want help with any PCNs you get!

I think you will find daft coach drivers are the main problem! Bus is defined by law, coach is defined by law, bus lane is defined by law, bus stop is defined by law none in your Road Traffic Act. In regards to bus lanes any vehicle with 8 seats plus driver is allowed in, thats the law, the only bus stop that exists in law is a bus stop clearway, which only local scheduled buses can use.........that is the LAW!!!!

Exceptions in favour of buses 3. Nothing in paragraph 2 applies to thedriver of a busbeing used in the provision of a local service who causes the bus tostop within the clearway for so long

The only place you can legally park a coach is in a 'coach bay' if you wait anywhere else that is restricted longer than it takes to drop off or pick up you are liable for a PCN, you can argue 'til the cows come home but thats the truth whether you like it or not!

My local authority complies with the law and changed all its non compliant bus stops marked by a 'bus stop' bay and double yellow lines to Bus stop clearways years ago, anywhere that hasn't has 'free' parking as the bays are meaningless.

Bus stops are defined in the TSRGD 2002 not in the 'RTA' whatever that is? Bus stops do not need a TRO as they are defined in law by the schedule I posted and their are two definitions of a Bus lane, outside London in the Transport Act 2000 inside London using the definition in the TSRGD 2002, none of the Road Traffic Acts define a Bus lane or stop.

All restricted bus stops and stands are now clearways the old style bus stops are now not an approved road marking and can be used by ANY vehicle as they are simply advisory.

SIGNIFICANCE OF BUS STOP AND BUS STAND CLEARWAY MARKINGS Interpretation of Part I of Schedule 1. For the purposes of this Part of this Schedule (a)clearway means an area of carriageway bounded by the continuous and broken straight yellow lines comprised in the road marking in diagram 1025.1, 1025.3 or 1025.4 and bus stop clearway means a clearway on which the words BUS STOP are marked; and (b)a vehicle shall be taken to have stopped within a clearway if (i)any point in the clearway is below the vehicle or its load (if any); and (ii)the vehicle is stationary. Prohibition conveyed by road markings 2. The road markings in diagrams 1025.1, 1025.3 and 1025.4 shall each convey the prohibition that, subject to the exceptions specified in paragraphs 3 and 4, no person driving a vehicle shall cause it to stop within the clearway (a)at any time, if the sign shown in diagram 974 or 975 placed in conjunction with the markings is varied so as to omit the reference to times of day; or (b)in any other case, during the period specified on that sign. Exceptions in favour of buses 3. Nothing in paragraph 2 applies to the driver of a bus being used in the provision of a local service who causes the bus to stop within the clearway for so long as may be necessary (a)to maintain the published timetable for the service (provided, in the case of a bus stop clearway, the bus is not stopped within the clearway for a period exceeding two minutes); (b)to enable passengers to board or alight from the bus; or ©to enable the crew of the bus to be changed.

I said Bus Stop, I never mentioned Bus lanes that was you and has nothing to do with parking and a bus is 8 passengers NOT 9.

Bus stops can be used by scheduled local buses only which doesn't include mini buses or coaches, I would have thought being in the trade so to speak you would have known that?

Whilst the term 'parked' is often used, most traffic orders actually state the contravention as 'waiting'. In legal terms both are deemed to be the same thing and provided you are not moving you are considered 'parked'. If you are dropping off passengers most restrictions allow you to park for as long as it takes for the passengers to get on or off the coach but not to wait for them to arrive. Some restrictions however such as bus stops, taxi ranks, zig zags etc do not permit you to stop to do so.

There is rarely ever going to be a need to place the sign on a different bay as the bay being suspended must have its own sign and therefore its own pole, I don't see how they have filled their obligation to correctly sign the suspension.

Why would you check a different bay? Even if the law isn't specific, common sense would dictate that it should be on the same pole as the restriction its suspending.

I would just appeal on the grounds you have suggested ie sign on the wrong bay and include photos.

I am appealing against PCN No. ###### issued to my vehicle###### on the following grounds: The contravention did not take place The alleged contravention is for parking in a parking place for that type of vehicle. However the bay I parked in was a pay and display or permit holders shared use bay and not a bay for a designated ‘class’ of vehicle. There was no indication that parking was limited to any class ofvehicle on the roadside signs. The Council has therefore failed in its duty under the Local Authorities’ Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996 and the traffic order is therefore unenforceable. Traffic signs 18. (1) Where an order relating to any road has been made, the order making authority shall take such steps as are necessary to secure (a)before the order comes into force, the placing on or near the road of such traffic signs in such positions as the order making authority may consider requisite for securing that adequate information as to the effect of the order is made available to persons using the road; (b)the maintenance ofsuch signs for so long as the order remains in force; and ©in a case where theorder revokes, amends or alters the application of a previous order, the removal or replacement of existing traffic signs as the authority considers requisite to avoid confusion to road users by signs being left in the wrong positions. Any restriction needs to be legally signed it is not the motorists responsibility to read a traffic order before using a parking place andfor the Authority to imply that is the case is ludicrous. With no adequate signage how is a motorist meant to know their vehicle is of the correct size or even colour, make, model etc when parking? They may decide to specify the typeof vehicle that is allowed to use a permit but that would be in the terms ofuse issued with the permit but for visitors paying to park clear signage is notonly sensible it’s a legal requirement. I would also highlight the fact that despite paying to park I was unloading at the time of the alleged contravention and therefore exemptfrom any ‘parking’ restriction due to an exemption in the Traffic order. Isupplied a letter to this affect from the resident but this was ‘refused’ bythe Council as insufficient evidence as it was not an ‘official’ document which seems to imply they consider both myself and the resident to be lying. There isno legal requirement for any ‘official’ proof in traffic orders to claim theexemption and the Council is just relying on a brief observation period by theCEO to refute my claim. I know from experience how short observation periodscan be and decided to pay to park rather than be forced to appeal as I realisedthe delivery may take more than the few minutes observation CEOs give. Procedural impropriety The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) GeneralRegulations 2007 states: Contents of a penaltycharge notice served under regulation 9 1. A penalty chargenotice served under regulation 9 must, in addition to the matters required to be included in it byregulation 3(2) of the Representations and Appeals Regulations, state— .....(e) the groundson which the civil enforcement officer serving the notice believes that a penalty charge ispayable; The penalty charge issued to my vehicle simply stated it wasparked in a bay not designated for that class of vehicle. I was totallyignorant of what regulation I had contravened as no class was stated on the PCNthis was further compounded by the lack of adequate road side signage. It wasonly after I made an informal challenge that the Authority that they statedthey considered my vehicle too large to use bays in their borough.

Just got back from holiday will draft you a letter wed morning if you can wait.

The witness statement system works both ways, we only have your word it wasn't received they is no physical way to prove it wasn't and you have no way to prove it wasn't sent. The Council could argue whats the point of having a payment deadline or a deadline to appeal if you can use a witness statement to turn back the clock.

Just to clarify did you get the charge certificate BEFORE the rejection?