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    • Well barristers would say that in the hope that motorists would go to them for advice -obviously paid advice.  The problem with appealing is at least twofold. 1] there is a real danger that some part of the appeal will point out that the person appealing [the keeper ] is also the driver.  And in a lot of cases the last thing the keeper wants when they are also the driver is that the parking company knows that. It makes it so much easier for them as the majority  of Judges do not accept that the keeper and the driver are the same person for obvious reasons. Often they are not the same person especially when it is a family car where the husband, wife and children are all insured to drive the same car. On top of that  just about every person who has a valid insurance policy is able to drive another person's vehicle. So there are many possibilities and it should be up to the parking company to prove it to some extent.  Most parking company's do not accept appeals under virtually any circumstances. But insist that you carry on and appeal to their so called impartial jury who are often anything but impartial. By turning down that second appeal, many motorists pay up because they don't know enough about PoFA to argue with those decisions which brings us to the second problem. 2] the major parking companies are mostly unscrupulous, lying cheating scrotes. So when you appeal and your reasons look as if they would have merit in Court, they then go about  concocting a Witness Statement to debunk that challenge. We feel that by leaving what we think are the strongest arguments to our Member's Witness Statements, it leaves insufficient time to be thwarted with their lies etc. And when the motorists defence is good enough to win, it should win regardless of when it is first produced.   
    • S13 (2)The creditor may not exercise the right under paragraph 4 to recover from the keeper any unpaid parking charges specified in the notice to keeper if, within the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which that notice was given, the creditor is given— (a)a statement signed by or on behalf of the vehicle-hire firm to the effect that at the material time the vehicle was hired to a named person under a hire agreement; (b)a copy of the hire agreement; and (c)a copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer under that hire agreement. As  Arval has complied with the above they cannot be pursued by EC----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- S14 [1]   the creditor may recover those charges (so far as they remain unpaid) from the hirer. (2)The conditions are that— (a)the creditor has within the relevant period given the hirer a notice in accordance with sub-paragraph (5) (a “notice to hirer”), together with a copy of the documents mentioned in paragraph 13(2) and the notice to keeper; (b)a period of 21 days beginning with the day on which the notice to hirer was given has elapsed;  As ECP did not send copies of the documents to your company and they have given 28 days instead of 21 days they have failed to comply with  the Act so you and your Company are absolved from paying. That is not to say that they won't continue asking to be paid as they do not have the faintest idea how PoFA works. 
    • Euro have got a lot wrong and have failed to comply with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 Schedule 4.  According to Section 13 after ECP have written to Arval they should then send a NTH to the Hirer  which they have done.This eliminates Arval from any further pursuit by ECP. When they wrote to your company they should have sent copies of everything that they asked Arval for. This is to prove that your company agree what happened on the day of the breach. If ECP then comply with the Act they are allowed to pursue the hirer. If they fail, to comply they cannot make the hirer pay. They can pursue until they are blue in the face but the Hirer is not lawfully required to pay them and if it went to Court ECP would lose. Your company could say who was driving but the only person that can be pursued is the Hirer, there does not appear to be an extension for a driver to be pursued. Even if there was, because ECP have failed miserably to comply with the Act  they still have no chance of winning in Court. Here are the relevant Hire sections from the Act below.
    • Thank-you FTMDave for your feedback. May I take this opportunity to say that after reading numerous threads to which you are a contributor, I have great admiration for you. You really do go above and beyond in your efforts to help other people. The time you put in to help, in particular with witness statements is incredible. I am also impressed by the way in which you will defer to others with more experience should there be a particular point that you are not 100% clear on and return with answers or advice that you have sought. I wish I had the ability to help others as you do. There is another forum expert that I must also thank for his time and patience answering my questions and allowing me to come to a “penny drops” moment on one particular issue. I believe he has helped me immensely to understand and to strengthen my own case. I shall not mention who it is here at the moment just in case he would rather I didn't but I greatly appreciate the time he took working through that issue with me. I spent 20+ years of working in an industry that rules and regulations had to be strictly adhered to, indeed, exams had to be taken in order that one had to become qualified in those rules and regulations in order to carry out the duties of the post. In a way, such things as PoFA 2012 are rules and regulations that are not completely alien to me. It has been very enjoyable for me to learn these regulations and the law surrounding them. I wish I had found this forum years ago. I admit that perhaps I had been too keen to express my opinions given that I am still in the learning process. After a suitable period in this industry I became Qualified to teach the rules and regulations and I always said to those I taught that there is no such thing as a stupid question. If opinions, theories and observations are put forward, discussion can take place and as long as the result is that the student is able to clearly see where they went wrong and got to that moment where the penny drops then that is a valuable learning experience. No matter how experienced one is, there is always something to learn and if I did not know the answer to a question, I would say, I don't know the answer to that question but I will go and find out what the answer is. In any posts I have made, I have stated, “unless I am wrong” or “as far as I can see” awaiting a response telling me what I got wrong, if it was wrong. If I am wrong I am only too happy to admit it and take it as a valuable learning experience. I take the point that perhaps I should not post on other peoples threads and I shall refrain from doing so going forward. 🤐 As alluded to, circumstances can change, FTMDave made the following point that it had been boasted that no Caggers, over two years, who had sent a PPC the wrong registration snotty letter, had even been taken to court, let alone lost a court hearing .... but now they have. I too used the word "seemed" because it is true, we haven't had all the details. After perusing this forum I believe certain advice changed here after the Beavis case, I could be wrong but that is what I seem to remember reading. Could it be that after winning the above case in question, a claimant could refer back to this case and claim that a defendant had not made use of the appeal process, therefore allowing the claimant to win? Again, in this instance only, I do not know what is to be gained by not making an appeal or concealing the identity of the driver, especially if it is later admitted that the defendant was the driver and was the one to input the incorrect VRN in error. So far no one has educated me as to the reason why. But, of course, when making an appeal, it should be worded carefully so that an error in the appeal process cannot be referred back to. I thought long and hard about whether or not to post here but I wanted to bring up this point for discussion. Yes, I admit I have limited knowledge, but does that mean I should have kept silent? After I posted that I moved away from this forum slightly to find other avenues to increase my knowledge. I bought a law book and am now following certain lawyers on Youtube in the hope of arming myself with enough ammunition to use in my own case. In one video titled “7 Reasons You Will LOSE Your Court Case (and how to avoid them)” by Black Belt Barrister I believe he makes my point by saying the following, and I quote: “If you ignore the complaint in the first instance and it does eventually end up in court then it's going to look bad that you didn't co-operate in the first place. The court is not going to look kindly on you simply ignoring the company and not, let's say, availing yourself of any kind of appeal opportunities, particularly if we are talking about parking charge notices and things like that.” This point makes me think that, it is not such a bizarre judgement in the end. Only in the case of having proof of payment and inputting an incorrect VRN .... could it be worthwhile making a carefully worded appeal in the first instance? .... If the appeal fails, depending on the reason, surely this could only help if it went to court? As always, any feedback gratefully received.
    • To which official body does one make a formal complaint about a LPA fixed charge receiver? Does one make a complaint first to the company employing the appointed individuals?    Or can one complain immediately to an official body, such as nara?    I've tried researching but there doesn't seem a very clear route on how to legally hold them to account for wrongful behaviour.  It seems frustratingly complicated because they are considered to be officers of the court and held in high esteem - and the borrower is deemed liable for their actions.  Yet what does the borrower do when disclosure shows clear evidence of wrong-doing? Does anyone have any pointers please?
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    • Hello,

      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

      Car was dirty and test drive was two circuits of roundabout on entry to the showroom.  Was p/x my car and rushed by sales exec and a manager into buying the mini and a 3yr warranty that night, sale all wrapped up by 10pm.  They strongly advised me taking warranty out on car that age (2017) and confirmed it was honoured at over 500 UK registered garages.

      The next day, 18/1/24 noticed amber engine warning light on dashboard , immediately phoned BMW aftercare team to ask for it to be investigated asap at nearest garage to me. After 15 mins on hold was told only their 5 service centres across the UK can deal with car issues with earliest date for inspection in March ! Said I’m not happy with that given what sales team advised or driving car. Told an amber warning light only advisory so to drive with caution and call back when light goes red.

      I’m not happy to do this, drive the car or with the after care experience (a sign of further stresses to come) so want a refund and to return the car asap.

      Please can you advise what I need to do today to get this done. 
       

      Many thanks 
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    • Housing Association property flooding. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/438641-housing-association-property-flooding/&do=findComment&comment=5124299
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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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Some shopping tips for the sales to protect yourself!


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As the sales are getting underway, many will be on the hunt for a good bargain in the sales. However, excess alcohol, blood divertion from brain to stomach (damn those sprouts...) or whatever may cause some to go for a bargain that isn't one at all..... so here's a few pointers (some obvious, some not so) to help

 

0. NEVER TRUST A REDUCED PRICE

 

The old rules, where a sale was only a sale if the higher price was available for 28 days or more etc etc is now gone. Instead, it has been replaced with the requirements in the CPUT regs. Basically, they are so wooly in their meaning and so difficult to enforce that shops can get away with whatever they want to, nearly. What you should do is look at the price it is selling for and make your decision on that alone. Ignore any higher price. Unfortunately, many traders are taking full advantage of the new regs and making a killing from it. For example, one famous seller of cheap sports gear has huge sale signs saying everything reduced. Reduced, that ism from the RRP and not from their normal sale price. Same stores lso say "ask for 20% off if not already discounted", making one think that one will get 20% off the asking price. You won't.

 

1. Know what you want before buying it.

If you are buying something specific, make sure you know what it is you want. For example, will a TV fit in a corner? Will that shelf hold the weight of the stereo you want to buy? Is your aunty really a size 10 (for that dress she keeps looking at)? Will it do what you want it to do? Have you shopped round for the best prices? Remember that the law does not protect you from a bad bargain - if there is nothing wrong with the item then you can only rely on the sellers goodwill policy (no fuss returns etc). A little bit of research first of can save money, time and stress later.

 

2. Pressure, pressure pressure.....

No, not tyre pumps, but tactics used by some sales staff. Though now prohibited under unfair practice directive, it does still happen. "Offer available today only" and the likes should set off warning bells. Don't be forced into buying something if you have not had a chance to check elsewhere. Any reputable seller will allow you to come back and take their offer. If you have done some research you should have a good idea of what you want, thereby limiting any chance of pressure tactics working on you. Always remember that YOU are in control and can leave at any time - you are under no obligation to buy anything!

 

3. If it ain't in writing....

Remember that although something said to you may induce you to buying something, you will have a hard time proving a verbal statement. If you are told something (be it a timeframe for delivery, the opportunity to get a refund if not liked, etc), ask for it to be written on a receipt and signed by the seller. If they do not want to do that, then treat what they say with a hefty dose of salt.

 

4. If it is in writing....

READ it and ask to take away a copy. It's boring, yes, but you are bound by documents that you sign (but note unfair terms etc that are automatically unenforceable). Not reading something is not an excuse. And if you are told something which is attractive, as for it to be pointed out (see above). Make sure you question anything you do not understand. Again, a responsible seller will be happy for you to come back later after having had time to examine documents and should gladly explain the main provisions.

 

5. Beware rogue traders...

I would like to include the majority of high street retailers here but never mind. Watch out for mock auctions, shops that suddenly pop up but are closing down already, street traders and mobile markets. Mock auctions are illegal but loopholes still make it possible for them to happen. You will not get fantastic Wii for a fiver, nor a plasma TV for fifty quid - you will get a bag of sh**e - and don't expect a refund or even think of asking for one unless you like hospital food. As for the others mentioned, they may be selling fake gear (which is illegal and the goods are often dangerous or of very poor quality), but even if not, you will have difficulty in trying to enforce your rights. More than likely, the seller will have disappeared soon after you have bought the item. There is one that opens in the same place in Manchester every year - flogging watches with a supposed value of £300 for £25. Yeah right.

 

6. Your rights

You still have the same right in sales as you do with anything else. If there is something wrong with an item on sale and the price has been reduced becasue of it, then this must be pointed out. Remember to keep receipts (and I usually put the price sticker on the back of the receipt as well) as prrof of purchase. It is not the only proof, but it is the best one. Watch out for signs that try to restrcit your statutory rights (e.g, no refunds, credit will only be given on refunds etc) - these are illegal. Although they have no effect in law, you might want to consider whether a shop that has them is really somewhere you want to buy from.

 

7. Extra protection..

Not talking condoms here...but do use plastic if you can. Credit cards provide protection on high values purchases, and if things go wrong you can take issue with the credit card company. Remembe that you alos have action against a creditor as well as the supplier for goods bught on loan etc. Also remember that shopping online allows an automatic "any reason" cancellation (with some exceptions) period for you to examinethe goods. Make sure you buy from reputable sellers and always read terms given before buying the item as well as the information sent to you afterwards.

 

8. If things do go wrong...

Act quickly. The time will determine whether you can get a refund depending on the circumstances. Once you have "accepted" goods, you will generally be entitled to a repair, replacement or (partial) refund in that order, and it is down to the seller to choose one that is proportionate and of minimum inconvenience to you. It is also for the seller to prove that the problem did not exist at the time of sale within the first six months- NOT for you to prove that it did.

When complaining, be calm, polite but firm. Remember that your contract is with the seller and it is for them to sort it, so do not be fobbed off by being told the manufacturer needs to sort it. If you do not get any luck in store, write to the company (more information on this available all over this site).

Also report the matter to Consumer Direct. They will provide information on what to do. They will also record the details, and if it is found taht there is a widescale problem with a seller, Trading Standards can take action against them as a whole.

 

So there you go. Happy hunting and happy new year. And if anyone knows of someone in Manchester who does REALLY cheap driving lesson (and I am talking cheap here - nearly free in fact!) then do drop me a note - I desparately need to pass test to get my dream job but am totally brassic!

Edited by gyzmo
New point added (0 - couldnt be bothered renumbering), addition to point 5
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Re paying by credit card. Not a lot of people realise that it's the 'credit' bit that is governed by the law. Consumer Credit Act '74 S25 makes the credit grantor liable alongside the seller. So ANY credit deal is covered. That means a debit card as well if you have an overdraft (and a store card) It's your right. Don't let the bank fob you off.

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Great article!

 

It's interesting that people sometimes seem to accept things like faulty sale goods because they were reduced anyway, and not do anything about it.

 

People still have consumer rights under Distance Selling Regulations and the Sale of Goods act if they shop in a sale

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Great article!

 

It's interesting that people sometimes seem to accept things like faulty sale goods because they were reduced anyway, and not do anything about it.

 

People still have consumer rights under Distance Selling Regulations and the Sale of Goods act if they shop in a sale

 

Common consumers are more concerned with the flash and surface of what they see. :) It's easy to concentrate on the big "REDUCED" sign over everything, and think about how much of a great deal it is while ignoring the fact that the price is still higher than you could get elsewhere. Fact is, most consumers don't research what they want to buy... They see a display sign in a store, ponder it, and then choose to buy that specific model unless a salesperson convinces them otherwise. I'm guilty of this, too! I bought a lot of baby clothes for my grandchildren without looking around. I just walked into a store, saw that they were for sale, bought a few, and then realized I could have gotten the same clothes in the store down the road for a few pounds cheaper... Not smart.

 

The worst is in the grocers, though... Reduced signs are NOT to be trusted. At least not with vegetables, fruits, and meats. It is so rare to actually get something that is still good to eat and then you're left with bits and pieces that you paid money for that maybe could have better been spent in something else. Making money off of "faulty" goods, as you described it.

 

Good opinion to keep with you: Anything with a reduced or quick sale sign should be treated with suspicion until proven genuine and safe. That's what I do now.

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