Robinson Way & HFC

[Manic_Aardvark]

Hi Forum,

 

In 1998 (at a low point because of divorce) I took out a loan with HFC, two years later I got made redundant and could not pay the loan.

 

Until 2005 I was paying a small amount to Westcott Credit agency, then out of the blue Westcott wrote to me to say no further payments would be accepted on behalf of HFC as they where no longer acting for them, I asked Westcott for a statement of all payments made to them, no reply was made to this request.

 

Two months ago I was contacted by Robinson Way who said they where now acting for HFC and asked me to pay the balance (which I cant afford or make a payment offer.

 

I wrote to Robinson Way asking for a copy of the loan agreement and a statement of the interest and all payments made to third parties (Westcott) stating the Consumer Credit Act 1974, enclosing £1 administration fee, I believe this is a CAA.

 

Robinson Way have sent me a copy off a loan agreement which is unsigned by myself or HFC and a copy of a statement from a number of year's ago with an address printed on that I have never resided at. Also there is no record of any payments made to Westcott.

 

Yesterday I have wrote to Robinson Way to state that in my opinion this unsigned document and slightly fictitious statement is unsatisfactory and that I insist on my request for a proper copy of the loan agreement and a statement of all payments made be fulfilled.

 

I have also stated that I will only deal with them via written correspondence for my records, as they have started to phone my home daily.

 

What would you advise I do next ?.

[harrassed senior]

I believe that SAR request would be your next step sent to HFC.

 

http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/48-bank-templates/110--data-protection-act-1998-subject-access-request

 

This should get you all of the paperwork required.

 

You have sent an account in dispute letter, so the ball is in their Court. Do not make any further payments at this time.

[Deb T]

Robinson Way would most likely NOT have the statements of Payment sent to Westcot, two different DCA's etc. You can still write to Westcot asking for your statements, they should still have them.

 

In respect of not making any further payments to them as stated above by Harrassed Senior....it must be said that it is personal choice as to if you wish to continue paying them whilst the account is in dispute, some people choose not to some choose to continue to make payments to sort of maintain a good payment regime but there are no hard and fast rules where this is concerned.

 

You're taking care to send all correspondence via recorded delivery?

 

Included in your letter to Robinson Way re the stopping of phone calls you could enclose a copy of the Debt Collection Guidance as set down by the OFT which can be found here

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/consumer_credit/oft664.pdf

 

Highlighting section 2.2 g '

ignoring or disregarding debtors' legitimate wishes in respect

of when and where to contact them, for example, shift workers who

ask not to be telephoned during certain times of the day

 

 

[Manic_Aardvark]

Thanks for your advice, I have wrote to CAB twice for advice and received no answer, I also contacted a Community Debt Advice Solicitors who said they could not help because this sounded like a consumer standards dispute ?. So its nice to know I can get advice on these forums.

 

The loan was taken out in a very hazy period for me when alcohol was my best friend, I believe I was even tipsy the day I went into HFC.

 

The amount that Robinson Way are quoting does not seem the correct loan amount and I think they may have actually consolidated the interest into the figure stated as the actual loan. They have also quoted on the statement) two loan insurance policies into the figure totaling almost £1000

[Deb T]

It's probably more than likely that Robinson Way of thought of a number, and added whatever they thought they could get away with.

 

You might want to think about taking a look at your credit file, Experian offer a free month's trial...you may find that the amount on your

file and when it was last updated corresponds more with your figures than it does with that of Robinson Way.

[Bazooka Boo]

IMO if the account is in dispute, then you can 'Legally' withhold any further payments to them.

If you continue to pay them when the account is in dispute this will only encourage them not to provide you with your request, they will also mark your file as 'mug' and once they have had their pound of flesh out of you, pass it on to another lowlife who will simply do the same as they know you won't question them.

 

Can you scan and post up anything robbers way have sent you? Remove all ID, names ,addresses, ref numbers, bar codes.

 

This is the telephone harassment letter you should send them, to put them on strict notice you don't care for their harassment.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/resources/templates-library/52-harassment/135--harassment-by-telephone-response-letter-

[Manic_Aardvark]

I will scan the documents to night in case I'm not reading them correctly, I don't have to blank anything out because A) The heading stating this is a loan agreement between You ________ and _______ is blank, B) there is no amount and C) there are no signature's for myself nor HFC, either I'm missing something or its just a blank agreement form (maybe the pen ink is not copying).

 

I can confirm that the statement has two insurance premiums totaling £1300 one called ASU insurance and one Life insurance, that I was not aware of.

 

Nowhere on the two page statement (with this rouge address) is there any mention of interest in the associated column (strange to say this two page statement covers almost two years payments.

[Mozz1]

IMO if the account is in dispute, then you can 'Legally' withhold any further payments to them.

If you continue to pay them when the account is in dispute this will only encourage them not to provide you with your request, they will also mark your file as 'mug' and once they have had their pound of flesh out of you, pass it on to another lowlife who will simply do the same as they know you won't question them.

 

 

Bazook, ref your above comment. Presumably you still advise making all repayments until the DCA fails to provide a true copy of the CCA? This, I think, is the 12 day deadline? Then refuse to pay if the CCA doesn't turn up after the 12th day?

 

My DCA said they don't have the DCA and I have to write to the original creditor for it.

 

I have been advised elsewhere on this site that the DCAs can still sue (a) even if they don't own the debt and (b) if thet won't produce the CCA.

[Manic_Aardvark]

I have not entered any payment agreements with Robinson Way, I pointed out to them that an arrangement was in force and that their client broke this arrangement with no explanation and that none of the payments made over two years have been acknowledged (although I can prove that they where made, via receipts. Since 2005 nobody has contacted me about this debt even though I have made overtures.

[Manic_Aardvark]

Here is a scan of the document from HFC after my request for a CCA, sorry for the quality, it is how I received it. If you look at it through MS Paint it blows up better.

 

[Deb T]

Here is a scan of the document from HFC after my request for a CCA, sorry for the quality, it is how I received it. If you look at it through MS Paint it blows up better.

 

[ATTACH]19426[/ATTACH]

 

 

Your document is too small, log an account at Photobucket (it's free) and place the document into your album on there and then link to it from here.

 

Photobucket

Image hosting, free photo sharing & video sharing at Photobucket

[Deb T]

Bazook, ref your above comment. Presumably you still advise making all repayments until the DCA fails to provide a true copy of the CCA? This, I think, is the 12 day deadline? Then refuse to pay if the CCA doesn't turn up after the 12th day?

 

My DCA said they don't have the DCA and I have to write to the original creditor for it.

 

I have been advised elsewhere on this site that the DCAs can still sue (a) even if they don't own the debt and (b) if thet won't produce the CCA.

 

 

The general rule of thunb tends to be to discontinue payments to a dca in the absence of them providing an enforceable credit agreement via a CCA request...once the 12+2 days for service is up the idea is to then send it the dispute letter and desist paying them....That is the usual way forward and is what is generally advised....however, it is a personal choice as to if you want to continue paying them once they fail to produce etc.

 

There is another angle to this and which is my take...in that if the loan/credit card is a recently entered in to/acquired it raises the possibility of a credit/enforceable credit agreement being produced (they still may take a while to produce it) ..this being the case and they have what they need then they will (the dca/creditor) will realise they have an enforceable credit agreement and will proceed to take you on, whether that be by a court summons or by requesting more money etc...it doesn't matter which...but I take the opinion that you've ****ed them off a little requesting documentation...they've now produced it so they have to a degree the upper hand and will almost certainly attempt to use it. If they took you to court and you were shown to have witheld payments for a reason that is probably not valid (no credit agreement) the judge would I think take a dim view of your activity and not only give the dca/creditor judgement (if everything else was in order) but they may allow the other sides costs/interest and a hiked repayment plan.....

 

So, in older credit agreements/loans/credit cards etc...then you're taking a chance that they wont/can't provide it...and history on cag shows that the older agreements are generally suspect with some banks/lenders not able to produce a an enforceable agreement...so ceasing payment to them whilst the account is in dispute is probably something to seriously consider...but in the newer ones where the lenders/creditors have realised the errors in their older agreements so have new ones all with the right details and then terminated in the correct manner by default dates being proper etc...then withholding payment may not be the smartest thing to do.

 

I've wanted to type that out for ages it is my opinion, there are of course always variables but there always is.

[Manic_Aardvark]

[Mozz1]

If they took you to court and you were shown to have witheld payments for a reason that is probably not valid (no credit agreement) the judge would I think take a dim view of your activity and not only give the dca/creditor judgement (if everything else was in order) but they may allow the other sides costs/interest and a hiked repayment plan.....

.

 

An extremely informative post, thanks. I'm not sure what exactly it is that makes an agreement unenforceable and what to look for.

 

Your above quote refers. Are you saying that it is not a valid reason to withold payments if there is no credit agreement?

[Manic_Aardvark]

Thanks Deb T.

 

This is what I got (the photo quality is exact) with another page of the smallest written terms and conditions.

[Mozz1]

Manic's HFC agreement doesn't appear to outline what happens in the event of a default, or am I missing something? Also no ToB?

[PriorityOne]

Bazook, ref your above comment. Presumably you still advise making all repayments until the DCA fails to provide a true copy of the CCA? This, I think, is the 12 day deadline? Then refuse to pay if the CCA doesn't turn up after the 12th day?

 

My DCA said they don't have the DCA and I have to write to the original creditor for it.

 

I have been advised elsewhere on this site that the DCAs can still sue (a) even if they don't own the debt and (b) if thet won't produce the CCA.

 

A CCA request is a legal request for information. If the DCA fails to comply within the set timescale, then you can withhold all further payments until such times as a properly executed, true copy can be produced.

 

Your DCA has produced nothing pertaining to yourself at all... it's blank and has no signature. So I would advise you to point this out to them and tell them to foxtrot oscar. They're used to being told this... and if you need help drafting up a short, sharp response... please shout...

 

A DCA cannot sue in its own right unless it owns the debt by Absolute Assignment and if they've bought the debt without a properly executed and signed CCA, then they're stuffed. If they haven't bought the debt, then they need to return the account to the original creditor. After this length of time however, I'm betting that it's been sold... and that there's no "Agreement" in sight.

 

 

I have not entered any payment agreements with Robinson Way, I pointed out to them that an arrangement was in force and that their client broke this arrangement with no explanation and that none of the payments made over two years have been acknowledged (although I can prove that they where made, via receipts. Since 2005 nobody has contacted me about this debt even though I have made overtures.

 

It's not up to you to prove anything to them.... they are under a legal obligation to comply with your CCA request. Its as simple as that and they know it. They have no "clients" either. DCAs just like to throw this term around because it makes them sound legally savvy.

 

[Mozz1]

Priority One, an informative post, thank you.

 

Although a DCA cannot sue in its own right, can they sue on behalf of their 'client'?

[danny17]

Hi does any one know what happens if robinsons way takes 5 weeks to respond to a cca letter i sent them sent them 1 asking for proof then sent them another saying they failed to reply to my request no reply for 6weeks then they send me a photocopy of a credit agreement anyone know what i should do

[Drexl Spivey]

You should read disk man dave's epic encounter with said robinson way on a similar issue :

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/71386-diskmandave-robinson-way-co.html

[Drexl Spivey]

That was also with HFC bank (DMD v RW) . Similar to the HFC account they came after me for 11 years later with no payment nor acknowledgement in the period , most certainly statute barred , but it is not RWC company policy to recognize statues of law .

[Manic_Aardvark]

More advice needed, I wrote to Robinson Way last Thursday and stated the following ;

 

Dear Sir/Madam

Further to your letter dated 11th June 2010 and my letter dated 13th May 2010 requesting a full signed copy of the loan agreement and payments made to all parties involved (Consumer Credit Act 1974 [sections 77-79]).

 

I note that you have not fully serviced my request.

I have received an unsigned loan agreement with your ‘clients’ letter head, that appears to be unfilled, maybe it is a bad copy and all the signatures are illegible.

 

I also note that you have sent a statement with an address printed on it, where I have never resided. This leaves some doubt about its authenticity.

 

I again request a full signed copy of the loan agreement with all payments made to all parties involved including any other debt collection agencies. I have also taken this opportunity to write to your client to request the same.

 

Please note that I will not enter into any verbal telephone conversations regarding this matter but prefer written correspondence for my records.

 

 

I have today received a letter (Dated Sunday 27th), asking me to to make a small monthly payment (because Robinson's know I want to settle the debt).

 

 

To be clear my grievance is the amount (£3000 more than I agree) of the debt and unaccounted payments to another DCA, not the actual existence of the debt.

 

 

If I make a payment do I lose my right to contest the amount owed or can I make a payment in good faith in the hope that a proper account of the debt will follow ?

 

 

Or shall I wait for a response to my last letter, payment to be made by 03/07/10

 

 

 

Advice appreciated.

[Bazooka Boo]

If I make a payment do I lose my right to contest the amount owed or can I make a payment in good faith in the hope that a proper account of the debt will follow ?

 

Have you sent them the 'Failed' letter?

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/571-failiure-to-provide-a-copy-of-the-agreement-within-the-prescribed-timescale

 

If so, and as they are still in breach of your request for the agreement, then you can legally withhold all payments until such time they do provide you with a 'legally' enforceable agreement.

 

If you make a payment, to simply show 'good faith' then you will only encourage them to extort more money from you, or as is normally the case, they will say if you can pay us this much we will write the rest off, you pay off whatever amount they say, they then pass the rest of your 'written' off debt to another DCA with the folder marked 'mug' where they will know that your a push over and will pay what they ask, simply because you only want to show good faith.

 

If the account is in dispute because they have 'failed'. Then do not pay them anything, and do not correspond with them any further, this only encourages them and makes them think you care about this.

 

However all that said, you will find this next link interesting as another method to get them to show you their hand is to use the CPR 31.16 protocols, have a read;

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/173201-why-you-shouldnt-use.html

Edited June 30, 2010 by Bazooka Boo

[Mozz1]

...they will say if you can pay us this much we will write the rest off, you pay off whatever amount they sis, they then pass the rest of your 'written' off debt to another DCA with the folder marked 'mug' [/url]

 

Whoa! When the DCA offers a resettlement figure to finalise the matter (in my case they regularly ask for 75% of the loan), are you saying that I will still be pursued or the remaining 25%?!

 

Is there anything that can be done to ring fence the settlement on a full and final basis? Do they have to mark the repayment as a partial payment with the CRAs?

[PriorityOne]

Whoa! When the DCA offers a resettlement figure to finalise the matter (in my case they regularly ask for 75% of the loan), are you saying that I will still be pursued or the remaining 25%?!

 

Is there anything that can be done to ring fence the settlement on a full and final basis? Do they have to mark the repayment as a partial payment with the CRAs?

 

If their letter doesn't specify a full & final settlement.... then the "balance" is likely to be sold on, yes. They are crafty b*ggers...

 

If you want to make a F&F offer, then you need to state F&F "in consideration" of the amount alleged to be outstanding on their records.

 

If nothing's in writing however, then it's all meaningless...