Hi,

I have CCA'd AMEX re a very old card (had been paying token payments of £1 for over 4 years but can't really afford to pay all token payments as on IB so I stopped a few months ago) and I thought that I should CCA all of the CC's to buy myself some time.

It was a formal request with £1 PO.

Today I received a response, AMEX have returned the fee, and provided a copy of the app form, a bad and barely legible one, with a set of terms of when the card was started in 1999 (unsure if they are a true copy).

They have referred me to look back at previous statements for balances!

I have been paying RMA for 4 years and not once have I recieved any documentation on the balance etc, I have only ever recieved about 4 emails requesting a new I&e form (ignored each time).

My question here, is that as they do not reference any compliance with s78 etc, it appears that this is not a response under the formal request for a copy of the agreement etc.

I think they have not responded to the formal request as they should have done, and have the returned the fee so that they 'get away' without responding properly?

Should I sent the CCA request has not been fulfilled template letter, and should I resend the payment back to them - just to be sure?

I thought they had to provide a statement of account, which in my interpretation, is a balance on the account (balance recieved for other CCA requests).

Any advice will be much appreciated as I have not recieved such a minimal response to a CCA yet, and I have sent over 15 in the past few years (for myself and others).

Thanks me_too

Hello,

I sent a Formal Complaint to AMEX, because they supplied an illegible copy of an application form, undated terms and no statement of account and returned £1 fee.

I complained their response was a failure, and I recieved a reply, which totally avoided my 'failure to comply with s77/78' complaint but instead referenced previous payments made = acknowledgement.

They also sent a copy of app form which was worse than the first one, again no statement of account and another undated terms.

Application form was from 1999.

I am unable to now make any payments (disabled and on benefits) and am trying to keep them at bay.

Is it worth a further complaint?

Is this failure enough to keep the DCA away?

Thanks, ME_too

Hi

Did you give them a deadline to reply by? If they don’t reply with a valid CCA in that time then send them an account in dispute letter (in the letter templates library). Whilst the account is in dispute they (nor their DCA) can’t pursue you for the debt (if they try there’s a letter for that too in the library).

If there is non compliance with an s78 (CCA request) then they can do pretty much anything up to and including the issuing of a claim. What they cannot do, is obtain judgment.

Hi,

It's a bit of a strange one here, I posted on another thread a while ago, but my issue has intensified and I was looking for some advice on 'reasonable adjustments' under the Equalities Act 2010.

Whilst I'm not deaf I have a disability which presents neurological issues and am bed bound, meaning I am unable to talk to banks etc for the majority of my time, especially incoming calls. Outgoing calls cause too much stress which agitate my disability, along with a very short term memory and inability to hold a meaningful telephone conversion. In summary I am unable to cope with being bullied on the telephone by debt collectors.

I am unable to meet contractual obligations to my debts and manage token payments to the ones who have fulfilled CCA requests. I am not avoiding payments, I am unable to pay however this is irrelevant in the fact all I really want is for them to communicate in writing - even if they harass me that way instead of by phone.

I have several creditors who are harassing me by telephone, and it is coming close to the point where I need to take some action either with FOS, ICO or court.

One debtor in particular, I will reference them a 'A', is just being ridiculous.

I have written various letters, over a period in excess of 1 year. OFT - in writing only, DPA please remove all telephone numbers, EQ Act 2010 - reasonable adjustment to contact in writing only and to keep in house ie. please do not send to external DCA who aggressively harasses me by telephone.

'A' have confirmed all telephone numbers are removed. Yet twice this account has been shipped out to DCA's who have called me before the 'we are now harassing you on behalf of A' letters arrive.

I have now made a formal complaint, however 'A' is mainly ignoring the disability issues and has turned the complaint into 'prove disability by providing proof of incapacity benefit' to prove to us you are not working - i.e. the response is all about being able to afford repaying the debt, and totally ignoring the requests for reasonable adjustments under the act.

What has really irritated me, is the request for copies of IB proof, which is nothing to do with the physical disability limitations which prevent me from talking on the telephone them. We all know that disabilities can exist and do exist for people not in receipt of IB, ESA or DLA. Their assumptions made me angry, I responded with this reference to IB to prove disability and they responded with provide a copy of IB!

As my formal complaint re: disability was turned into the 'prove you cant pay' I sent a formal letter to the legal department, as I thought this department would realise the importance of the Equalities Act and reasonable adjustments. The company sent my letter to customer services for another response, requesting proof of 'registered disability', and incapacity benefit as proof you cant pay.

'A' can not understand that actually chasing me (as in demanding money and making court threats) and how to communicate with me in regards to debt are two separate entities. I care not about them chasing and harassing me, I'm just unable to speak to them on the phone when they are calling me.

They are in default of my CCA request, I have no money to pay them, and their attitude in harassing me by phone for this debt, and lying in a CCA response - I have stopped token payments. I clearly explained my formal complaint was not about any alleged debt but the Equalities Act.

Aside from the legal department refusing to correspond, I requested a copy of procedures on how 'A' deal with a 'reasonable request' under the Equalities Act 2010 - they didn't respond. Customer Services who did respond want 'official registered documents' which if I did send a copy of my DLA does not in any way prove I am unable to use the telephone.

In summary, I do not want to send my DLA details to this creditor, I will send them as little as possible. I also dont wish to pay for a GP letter.

Do any of you kind folk out there know what I should send as evidence of my physical limitations, ie unable to talk on the telephone? I've a good mind to send them a copy of my blue badge to see what the response is

The latest letter is, as I did not respond in time (I depend on my carer assisting with letters) on the day my response was expected, and before close of business, they have sent a kind letter back stating my 'constant refusal to provide official disability documentation....therefore not proving I am not working......results in this being sent out to DCA number 3'!

This of course will result in telephone contact, and really this prevention of telephone calls should have been stopped by my OFT and DPA requests for all telephone numbers to be removed.

Im not sure wether to send a chaser to the legal department, a response to the idiot who keeps asking for copies of IB, ignoring my 'telephone only requests' and who really really wants to get a DCA on my case (he must be on commission as to how many debtors he refers to a DCA), or to just escalate this to ICO or FOS.

Any advice on 'the right way' to approach this will be greatly appreciated.

As you can tell I'm hoping not to have to take legal action, but I do want to prepare myself by acting reasonably with the creditors to ensure I have done the best I can and provided enough info to them for them to action reasonable requests.

i.e ensure I've done all I should before I send the LBA.

Me_too

name names!!

you don't have to hide them

name and shame!!

Hi,

A bit cautious at the moment, as I wasn't sure if they searched the forums.

So instead of naming them, heres enough info so that their identity isn't picked up in any search engines.

Based on the south coast, and the company that is not green, and they are from USA.....

The account is quite old 90's, so I'm hoping unenforceable (copy of app form, which doubles as CA, t&C provision laughable, then theres a 'security' issue which has been discussed on here for this outfit, minimal PPI which will not dent the balance of approx £4k) otherwise I think it would have been enforced within the past 5 years!

Anyway if they did take me to court and I lost they wouldn't get anything anyway, as I have no spare cash.

Thanks

Me_too

Have you tried going to one of the charities which helps with debt collectors. eg National debtline

The Money Advice Trust (MAT)

As soon as you provide them with the details of your income and what your expenditure is they can write to your creditors.

Once they are involved the creditors must stop chasing you until resolved.

Speak to your MP about the harassment just to mark it up.

You are under no obligation to provide evidence to DCA's your debt is not with them it is with whoever you took the original loan, credit card or whatever out with.

If the debt is from the 90's it may be statute barred but this doesn't apply I believe to CCJ's.

The Disability Alliance has been campaigning about the tactics of debt collection companies

and that disabled people have a double disadvantage when dealing with these agencies.

Try contacting the Disability Alliance or CAB for advice.

I realise you are housebound maybe someone could come to see you.

I don't think DCA's would be bothered at all that their practices or procedures don't comply with the Equalities Act2010.

The reality is with the constant calling and threats and misinformation given they may also be falling foul of the Harassment Act.

They are aware that if you don't have money to pay the debt you most certainly don't have enough to take them to court.

You could get a tape recorder and record any calls where you inform them you have written to them,

you have informed them you are disabled and they are exacerbating your condition if they are,

and give the details of dates and number of calls to your MP.

These DCA's are awful.

I would like to see some prosecuted for their behaviour and the financial institutions who tasked them held responsible for any harassment

that takes place because they know exactly what is happening. I'm sure there have been cases of suicide as a result of these tactics

and without a doubt cases of severe stress and depression.

The people will then be left with a mental illness which may stop them ever getting back to work and being a lifelong dependent on the National Health.

I am so sorry for what is happening to you.

You could just get a relative to get you a mobile ie not in your name

which you can use for friends and relatives and then either don't answer the phone or have it disconnected.

You'll probably find it saves you money if you let people call you and use it sparingly.

As long as you can phone out in emergencies at least it will stop the telephone calls.

There's also a system called Tru Call which you can use to block calls coming in but there is an initial outlay for it

although you might be able to get the council to get it for you. We have one for my mum because

she has dementia and we are also putting in a door phone so that she doesn't have to go to the door any more for unwanted callers.

If someone was making a nuisance of themselves at your door you could phone the police.

They should come out as you will be considered a vulnerable person being bedridden and housebound.

Someone else will be able to explain in more details what you could do about the debts but you are certainly under no obligation to communicate with these people at all.

Please name sand shame... There is nothing they can do to you by naming them here....

Ive read your post and understand thoroughly .

Marlins? They are based on the South Coast... (Also now owned by Cabot etc)

What about First Credit?

You dont need to provide proof ever of a disability. All you need is one fell swoop to remove contact details etc... And one written request in a letter.

Your response here should be sent to the OFT & Ombudsman, IMO they are treating you unfairly.

One debtor in particular, I will reference them a 'A', is just being ridiculous

Not as 'A', give us their real name.

Have you sent them the letter linked below..

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?387367-Harassment-by-Telephone

The draft in post # 3 looks as though it might be the most suitable.

Hi

Have any of the original creditors (not the DCA's) agreed to contact in writing? If so, this instruction should have also been passed on when the debt was sold/transferred.

If not then the telephone harassment letter with suitable additions should suffice. A debt collector has a duty to communicate with a debtor in the way the debtor chooses so long as the debtor continues meaningful discussion in return. If a debtor fails to respond to letters then they could revert to phoning.

I'm not sure just how many teeth the FCA will have once they take over from the OFT in April but I would wait until then and file a complaint with the FCA.

If you have a mobile phone with recording capabilities, you can record the calls. You could also contact your phone provider to get the numbers blocked (although DCA's have multiple numbers)

Hi ,

Thanks everyone for the replies, I'm not really 'with it' today, been kept awake thinking of my next move.

I've tried to provide a fairly simple list of events, hope I mange to write it correctly.

Here goes....

I should say that I have confirmed to them that I will respond to letters, I am not avoiding communications entirely.

It's Amex, still with Amex after 6 years of token payments

I've sent telephone harassment letter, they confirm telephone number removed from their records

Had to stop token payments, due to more severe financial difficulties.

Amex use RMA/UCA etc have different names for different desks the same company

'Sent' to UCA who called me before 'we have been assigned letter'

Formal Complaint UCA, why phoning etc, where did you attain tele no - no response but sent back to Amex

Started CCA route etc. s77/78 not satisfied, got into a protracted dispute re failure of s77/78

Part of dispute included re requesting removal of telephone numbers properly, why did DCA call etc?

Also request to remove all tele numbers under DPA, reminding them of obligations to ensure 3rd parties do not call me either

Amex declined to respond to above request re dpa tele numbers

Then shipped out to first source, based in India

They called the same day as their 'we now have your account', but before the post arrived

I'm not writing to India!

So then started the formal complaint re 'please make reasonable adjustments under equalities act' etc

I'm not asking for the world, just to stop DCAs calling. I asked for account to be retained In house.

Requests were ignored.

So I sent formal complaint to legal department (assuming they would be more aware of equalities act than just customer services)

Letter details failings on OFT/ DPA / equalities act etc

Legal declined to respond, I received a response from customer services

However, the fool dealing with my formal complaint under the EqA had turned it into a 'debt collection activity' , asking for proof of incapacity benefit Etc. (Which has prompted this thread, as proof of income not exclusive to disability limitations, and clearly ignoring the real issue).

I attempted a response, requesting details of how Amex deal with reasonable adjustments etc.

The response, to NOT UPHOLD my formal complaint re reasonable adjustments, as I have declined to provide proof of IB.

Unbelievable.

It may be because the person dealing with the complaint turned it into 'prove you income' instead of actually dealing with the real issue off reasonable adjustments.

He has also, with glee, sent it back to DCA.

And herein lies the real problem, as with other creditors,

The OC removes tele no.

Passes account to DCA

Does not inform DCA no tele contact (breach of data protection?)

DCA does 'search' for tele number

finds tele no, in my name (I have BT account in my name for Internet etc)

Calls me, then refuses to disclose where the tele no was attained

And they have a nasty habit of calling before the letter 'we are collecting' arrives

All DCAs do stop calling, upon receipt of letter, but my disability does not allow me to be on edge, waiting for the next call, to then block it, and then write to yet another DCA. This is for other creditors also.

I had another complaint with BC, which also escalated into DCAs calling whilst the complaint (including this issue) was with the FOS. FOS agreed BC out of order, gave compensation. Part of my complaint was that in that case, all 3 DCAs refused to respond to my letters enquiring where they attained the tele number. I asked FOS to insist DCAs respond to letters as part of the compliant but they let the DCAs get away with it. 'Not in their remit'.

I live with parents, who are my carers, I am bed bound most of the time

I have a truecall unit, which registers all of the calls, but only after the first call has been made am I able to block the number

My dad is about to retire, he does not know of my debt

If he picks up any calls from DCA my life will be hell (he's a sensible no credit man)

I just want Amex and others to ensure the data on their systems is administered correctly

I have requested the account to remain in house as they are incapable (or refusing to) pass clear instructions to external dcas not to call.

I think I've given them enough chances, clearly they have an issue with processing the account and a complete disregard for vulnerable people.

Having slept on it (well not slept really), I think as Amex have just completely ignored the letter I may raise it with ICO and FOS.

Rant over.......

Back later

Thanks guys

Hi,

Hi

If so, this instruction should have also been passed on when the debt was sold/transferred.

Yes this is the issue, I have 4 creditors who have all failed to pass this requirement on when employee DCAs

 

If not then the telephone harassment letter with suitable additions should suffice. A debt collector has a duty to communicate with a debtor in the way the debtor chooses so long as the debtor continues meaningful discussion in return. If a debtor fails to respond to letters then they could revert to phoning. DCAs are getting better, they do comply, after I have to make the effort to reiterate 'in writing only. It's this hassle that I am trying to prevent '

 

 

 

If you have a mobile phone with recording capabilities, you can record the calls. You could also contact your phone provider to get the numbers blocked (although DCA's have multiple numbers)

 

Yes, truecall brilliant for this, I just hope I never get any friends using landline phones in Glasgow, Stockport, Brighton, Preston, Manchester etc. All dialing codes are blocked

 

 

Hi,

Thanks for your reply, I have answered some questions below.....

Have you tried going to one of the charities which helps with debt collectors.

Thank you for this advice, it is great advice, my bf has been with payplan for 6 years. But my circumstances do not allow even for token payments anymore, I'm a bit beyond this now, have been making token payments for many years, have got fed up with the harassment etc. Ben taking to court by cohens (discontinued), if they had any enforceable debts I would have been in court years ago, however as we all know it doesn't stop the 'collection activity'.

 

 

 

Speak to your MP about the harassment just to mark it up.

I have read this before, does it actually work?

 

You are under no obligation to provide evidence to DCA's your debt is not with them it is with whoever you took the original loan, credit card or whatever out with. This one is still with OC, after 5-6 years.

 

 

If the debt is from the 90's it may be statute barred but this doesn't apply I believe to CCJ's. Not SB, no CCJ, just a failed s77/78 which they insist complies. I'd love them to take it to court!

 

The Disability Alliance has been campaigning about the tactics of debt collection companies

and that disabled people have a double disadvantage when dealing with these agencies.

Try contacting the Disability Alliance or CAB for advice.

I realise you are housebound maybe someone could come to see you.

CAB not accessible round here, but thank I will look up disability alliance

 

I don't think DCA's would be bothered at all that their practices or procedures don't comply with the Equalities Act2010.

The problem I have is not with the DCA, it's with the OC refusing to pass 'in writing only' on to 'aggressive collection company' , I never thought I'd be saying it's not the fault of the DCA

 

The reality is with the constant calling and threats and misinformation given they may also be falling foul of the Harassment Act.

They are aware that if you don't have money to pay the debt you most certainly don't have enough to take them to court.

 

You could get a tape recorder and record any calls where you inform them you have written to them,

you have informed them you are disabled and they are exacerbating your condition if they are, yes done this compliant not upheld as I didn't send copy of IB (aside from the fact it's nothing to do with income etc and I'm not on IB )

and give the details of dates and number of calls to your MP.

 

These DCA's are awful.

 

Yes I do agree in general with this point, I have suffered over the years and they continue to hound the less 'financially educated', ie those who haven't found this excellent forum, or those who are unable for many reasons to deal with their harassment. However this time, and I'm sure many times the DCAs harass others it's the fault of the OC who is causing the issue with poor control over processing the data on their systems under DPA

I would like to see some prosecuted for their behaviour and the financial institutions who tasked them held responsible for any harassment

that takes place because they know exactly what is happening. I'm sure there have been cases of suicide as a result of these tactics

and without a doubt cases of severe stress and depression.

 

The people will then be left with a mental illness which may stop them ever getting back to work and being a lifelong dependent on the National Health.

 

I am so sorry for what is happening to you.

You could just get a relative to get you a mobile ie not in your name which you can use for friends and relatives and then either don't answer the phone or have it disconnected.

I live with my family, they are my carers. Unfortunately the phone is in my name for internet purposes, but is used by all of the family for over 15 years which is why they don't want to change it.

 

 

You'll probably find it saves you money if you let people call you and use it sparingly.

 

As long as you can phone out in emergencies at least it will stop the telephone calls.

 

There's also a system called Tru Call which you can use to block calls coming in but there is an initial outlay for it

although you might be able to get the council to get it for you. We have one for my mum because

she has dementia and we are also putting in a door phone so that she doesn't have to go to the door any more for unwanted callers. These are brilliant, I have one, but the first call, before being able to block, the constant worry that call will happen and be picked up by a family member is too stressful. This is what I am trying to stop, the first call from each DCA as it arrives.

 

If someone was making a nuisance of themselves at your door you could phone the police.

 

They should come out as you will be considered a vulnerable person being bedridden and housebound.

 

Someone else will be able to explain in more details what you could do about the debts but you are certainly under no obligation to communicate with these people at all.

title changed

moved to amex forum

and put on their twitter feed

lets see if e can embarrass them into helping.

dx

Hi dx,

thank you.

Nothing from Amex, hardly surprising though.

After rereading their letter to 'dismiss in entirety' Im preparing a FOS letter,

and thinking about contacting some of the other organisations in regards to disability discrimination

(Equalities Act) too that one of the posters mentioned earlier in the thread.

thanks to all for the advice.

Mt

I have a current complaint to FOS about exactly this behaviour by Amex.

They appear to be incapable of responding by post except to request contact by telephone.

In this way it is virtually impossible to prove any of the complaints made against them.

Their complaints procedures are a joke aimed solely at using one excuse or another so that they claim to not uphold the complaint

when in fact they have not even started to address it.

FOS dismissed the complaint on the basis that they could not interfere with the Amex internal procedures

which in your case mean invoking the DDA on spurious grounds.

Have a look at the OFT Guidance to Creditors oft664rev which sets out that creditors must comply with requests to communicate in writing only

and thay they must pass this information on to the DCAs.

Amex have used passing to DCAs their excuse to fail to recognise a Common Financial Statement even though this is contrary to the Lending Code.

They also use RMA, which is NCO Europe trading as RMA who similarly refuse to communicate except by phone.

The complaint to FOS about this was redirected by FOS to Complete Credit Management who have also traded as RMA in the past.

However, CCM Ltd went into liquidation at the beginning of the year and I am awaiting the FOS response on this.