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    • the claimant in their WS can refer to whatever previous CC judgements they like, as we do in our WS's, but CC judgements do not set a legal precedence. however, they do often refer to judgements like Bevis, those cases do created a precedence as they were court of appeal rulings. as for if the defendant, prior to the raising of a claim, dobbed themselves in as the driver in writing during any appeal to the PPC, i don't think we've seen one case whereby the claimant referred to such in their WS.. ?? but they certainly typically include said appeal letters in their exhibits. i certainly dont think it's a good idea to 'remind' them of such at the defence stage, even if the defendant did admit such in a written appeal. i would further go as far to say, that could be even more damaging to the whole case than a judge admonishing a defendant for not appealing to the PPC in the 1st place. it sort of blows the defendant out the water before the judge reads anything else. dx  
    • Hi LFI, Your knowledge in this area is greater than I could possibly hope to have and as such I appreciate your feedback. I'm not sure that I agree the reason why a barrister would say that, only to get new customers, I'm sure he must have had professional experience in this area that qualifies him to make that point. 🙂 In your point 1 you mention: 1] there is a real danger that some part of the appeal will point out that the person appealing [the keeper ] is also the driver. I understand the point you are making but I was referring to when the keeper is also the driver and admits it later and only in this circumstance, but I understand what you are saying. I take on board the issues you raise in point 2. Is it possible that a PPC (claimant) could refer back to the case above as proof that the motorist should have appealed, like they refer back to other cases? Thanks once again for the feedback.
    • Well barristers would say that in the hope that motorists would go to them for advice -obviously paid advice.  The problem with appealing is at least twofold. 1] there is a real danger that some part of the appeal will point out that the person appealing [the keeper ] is also the driver.  And in a lot of cases the last thing the keeper wants when they are also the driver is that the parking company knows that. It makes it so much easier for them as the majority  of Judges do not accept that the keeper and the driver are the same person for obvious reasons. Often they are not the same person especially when it is a family car where the husband, wife and children are all insured to drive the same car. On top of that  just about every person who has a valid insurance policy is able to drive another person's vehicle. So there are many possibilities and it should be up to the parking company to prove it to some extent.  Most parking company's do not accept appeals under virtually any circumstances. But insist that you carry on and appeal to their so called impartial jury who are often anything but impartial. By turning down that second appeal, many motorists pay up because they don't know enough about PoFA to argue with those decisions which brings us to the second problem. 2] the major parking companies are mostly unscrupulous, lying cheating scrotes. So when you appeal and your reasons look as if they would have merit in Court, they then go about  concocting a Witness Statement to debunk that challenge. We feel that by leaving what we think are the strongest arguments to our Member's Witness Statements, it leaves insufficient time to be thwarted with their lies etc. And when the motorists defence is good enough to win, it should win regardless of when it is first produced.   
    • S13 (2)The creditor may not exercise the right under paragraph 4 to recover from the keeper any unpaid parking charges specified in the notice to keeper if, within the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which that notice was given, the creditor is given— (a)a statement signed by or on behalf of the vehicle-hire firm to the effect that at the material time the vehicle was hired to a named person under a hire agreement; (b)a copy of the hire agreement; and (c)a copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer under that hire agreement. As  Arval has complied with the above they cannot be pursued by EC----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- S14 [1]   the creditor may recover those charges (so far as they remain unpaid) from the hirer. (2)The conditions are that— (a)the creditor has within the relevant period given the hirer a notice in accordance with sub-paragraph (5) (a “notice to hirer”), together with a copy of the documents mentioned in paragraph 13(2) and the notice to keeper; (b)a period of 21 days beginning with the day on which the notice to hirer was given has elapsed;  As ECP did not send copies of the documents to your company and they have given 28 days instead of 21 days they have failed to comply with  the Act so you and your Company are absolved from paying. That is not to say that they won't continue asking to be paid as they do not have the faintest idea how PoFA works. 
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ESA Reassessment????


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Hi

 

I had my first ATOS assessment in March 2011 which surprise surprise I failed with only 6 points, but managed to get overturned in the first stages of the appeals system and placed in WRAG.asked them to send me one

 

I heard nothing at all regarding a reassessment till I got a letter on 4th April 2012from ATOS demanding that I send in the questionnaire I had been sent by April 11th 2012. I had never received this form so, I phoned ESA straight away and requested a new one. 2 weeks later my ESA did not go in my bank and I had not received the form so again I phoned ESA and after an hour wait and having to endure the torture of that infuriating music I finally spoke to someone and was told it had not been paid because they had not received the form back. I informed them that I had not received it even after requesting one, they sent me another one the following day and am happy to say paid my money via FP that day.

 

As soon as I received it I filled it in, provided alot of evidence and requested that the assessment be recorded, I then sent it back via recorded delivery straight away.

 

As of yet I have not heard anything. Do ESA notify you if they do not require you to have another assessment? Or do they just keep you hanging on adding to the stress of worrying that you have to attend an assessment, be deemed fit for work, having your money cut whilst you wait for an appeal to be sorted out?

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Hi

 

I had my first ATOS assessment in March 2011 which surprise surprise I failed with only 6 points, but managed to get overturned in the first stages of the appeals system and placed in WRAG.asked them to send me one

 

I heard nothing at all regarding a reassessment till I got a letter on 4th April 2012from ATOS demanding that I send in the questionnaire I had been sent by April 11th 2012. I had never received this form so, I phoned ESA straight away and requested a new one. 2 weeks later my ESA did not go in my bank and I had not received the form so again I phoned ESA and after an hour wait and having to endure the torture of that infuriating music I finally spoke to someone and was told it had not been paid because they had not received the form back. I informed them that I had not received it even after requesting one, they sent me another one the following day and am happy to say paid my money via FP that day.

 

As soon as I received it I filled it in, provided alot of evidence and requested that the assessment be recorded, I then sent it back via recorded delivery straight away.

 

As of yet I have not heard anything. Do ESA notify you if they do not require you to have another assessment? Or do they just keep you hanging on adding to the stress of worrying that you have to attend an assessment, be deemed fit for work, having your money cut whilst you wait for an appeal to be sorted out?

 

hi dILIZJO you should complaint.... i know it sound may not be nice but i advice to everyone on ESA, do not worry to attempt assessments or filling forms. stress and worry even pain thats what the new system want to do to ESA,DLA claims. im on ESA and DLA. its very hard for me to go assessment and filling forms but if they call me every week i will attempt every week, if they send me form to fill every day i will fill it and send it everyday. MY ADVICE TO EVERYONE PLEASE DO NOT GET WORRY OR STRESS GO ASSESSMENTS AND FILL THEIR LONG FORMS WITHOUT ANY WORRY AND STRESS. IF YOU WORRY AND STRESS THEY SUCCEEDED. SOME OF YOU MAY NOT AGREE BUT MOST OF YOU KNOW THIS NEW SYSTEM WILL JUST MAKE PEOPLE STOP CLAIMS NOT FROUD OR FAKE CLAIMS ONLY. they also called me ( in 10 months) twice in first i appealed and win in first stage and in second one i straightly pass my medical and received decision in 8 day. GOOD LUCK TO EVERYONE.

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The delay may well be because you've asked for your assessment to be recorded. I am in a similar situation and have now been waiting nearly 3 months for a response to my ESA50.

RMW

"If you want my parking space, please take my disability" Common car park sign in France.

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hi dILIZJO you should complaint.... i know it sound may not be nice but i advice to everyone on ESA, do not worry to attempt assessments or filling forms. stress and worry even pain thats what the new system want to do to ESA,DLA claims. im on ESA and DLA. its very hard for me to go assessment and filling forms but if they call me every week i will attempt every week, if they send me form to fill every day i will fill it and send it everyday. MY ADVICE TO EVERYONE PLEASE DO NOT GET WORRY OR STRESS GO ASSESSMENTS AND FILL THEIR LONG FORMS WITHOUT ANY WORRY AND STRESS. IF YOU WORRY AND STRESS THEY SUCCEEDED. SOME OF YOU MAY NOT AGREE BUT MOST OF YOU KNOW THIS NEW SYSTEM WILL JUST MAKE PEOPLE STOP CLAIMS NOT FROUD OR FAKE CLAIMS ONLY. they also called me ( in 10 months) twice in first i appealed and win in first stage and in second one i straightly pass my medical and received decision in 8 day. GOOD LUCK TO EVERYONE.

we all agree the system is meant to make you stress and worry thus compounding the medical problems that we already have...as like yourself i have appealed after getting null point from rATOS..the whole bloody system is not fit for purpose..but unfortunately its the one we have to work with.....good luck to you as well

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be wary with the recorded request, since I made my request they have booked me no less than 4 normal medicals, 3 were cancelled promptly but they wont cancel the 4th till nearer the date they say now. This has made me paranoid as its quite possible I will forget to ring to check its cancelled then the next thing I know I am in trouble fo rmissing it.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi,

 

Just thought I'd give you an update

 

I received my appt for the 3rd July, on the letter there was no mention of it being recorded, So I called them straight away. The operator said he would email the relevant department and that they would phone me to make arrangements.

 

Not being one to sit and wait for them to contact me I rang them again to keep chasing it up as I do not intend to go on the 3rd July if they have not made the correct requested arrangements. I was given a telephone number which I rang and was told that I would not be able to have my assessment till some time in August as the recording equipment is not available till then. I have asked them to verify this and the cancellation of the July appt via post, we shall wait and see.

 

One thing a little off topic that I found stupid was that they include a suggested journey plan.

 

Mine included walk to bus stop, 4 mins, this walk contains a very steep hill and being a COPD and Rheumatoid Arthritis sufferer would take me forever to get to the top???????????

 

Get on a bus: journey 7 mins to Bus station

 

Walk to centre 2 mins, again another very long, steep hill would need an ambulance at top I think.

 

Thankfully I have someone to take me but I really feel for those who don't and can't manage the initial payout for a taxi out of their benefit as the fare is not reimbursed straight away. Do they not read the questionnaires that they send out? these would tell them that "Oh dear this person is not fit enough to complete this journey without severe discomfort so we won't print out this sheet of paper and save on resources", but maybe that is just common sense.

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Hi,

 

Just thought I'd give you an update

 

I received my appt for the 3rd July, on the letter there was no mention of it being recorded, So I called them straight away. The operator said he would email the relevant department and that they would phone me to make arrangements.

 

Not being one to sit and wait for them to contact me I rang them again to keep chasing it up as I do not intend to go on the 3rd July if they have not made the correct requested arrangements. I was given a telephone number which I rang and was told that I would not be able to have my assessment till some time in August as the recording equipment is not available till then. I have asked them to verify this and the cancellation of the July appt via post, we shall wait and see.

 

One thing a little off topic that I found stupid was that they include a suggested journey plan.

 

Mine included walk to bus stop, 4 mins, this walk contains a very steep hill and being a COPD and Rheumatoid Arthritis sufferer would take me forever to get to the top???????????

 

Get on a bus: journey 7 mins to Bus station

 

Walk to centre 2 mins, again another very long, steep hill would need an ambulance at top I think.

 

Thankfully I have someone to take me but I really feel for those who don't and can't manage the initial payout for a taxi out of their benefit as the fare is not reimbursed straight away. Do they not read the questionnaires that they send out? these would tell them that "Oh dear this person is not fit enough to complete this journey without severe discomfort so we won't print out this sheet of paper and save on resources", but maybe that is just common sense.

ah, well that is the crafty bit, if you do complete the journey by the recommended route you will immediately gain 0 points.....hence the question..how did you get here today? said in a nice smiley manner...

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I had my assessment last week, although my doctor told them I could not use public transport due to pain they sent a taxi for me.. I arrived on my crutches and signed in, the lady asked me to sit and wait for the doctor, I told her I couldn't sit on their chairs as they are too low, The doc called me in and I had the entire interview standing as it was more comfortable, he chatted to me for about half an hour but it didn't seem like a grilling, he saw my prescription and my specialists notes. He never gave me any sort of medical, and he told me about his aunt who had the same condition as me.. (R.A) He also told me that the form I filled out was enough for me to pass on paper. Do you reckon then that I have passed the assessment or should I still be worried as I have heard some proper horror stories on this forum about people who were sure they had passed only to fail. He told me it would be two or three weeks before the decision would be made. oh and by the way, I never had to pay for the taxi, in fact no mention of payment was asked (or offered)....

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I had my assessment last week, although my doctor told them I could not use public transport due to pain they sent a taxi for me.. I arrived on my crutches and signed in, the lady asked me to sit and wait for the doctor, I told her I couldn't sit on their chairs as they are too low, The doc called me in and I had the entire interview standing as it was more comfortable, he chatted to me for about half an hour but it didn't seem like a grilling, he saw my prescription and my specialists notes. He never gave me any sort of medical, and he told me about his aunt who had the same condition as me.. (R.A) He also told me that the form I filled out was enough for me to pass on paper. Do you reckon then that I have passed the assessment or should I still be worried as I have heard some proper horror stories on this forum about people who were sure they had passed only to fail. He told me it would be two or three weeks before the decision would be made. oh and by the way, I never had to pay for the taxi, in fact no mention of payment was asked (or offered)....
I wouldnt bank on it...but who knows? i too have mobility issues...failed with 0 points as nurse says i could use a wheelchair to aid mobility....fact is i dont have one...cant access one...but they dont care.....keep us informed...mine wasnt a grilling either...nurse was nice.sympathetic, concerned...but still stabbed in back...her report was almost based on fiction....
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ah, well that is the crafty bit, if you do complete the journey by the recommended route you will immediately gain 0 points.....hence the question..how did you get here today? said in a nice smiley manner...

 

So, you're damned if you get there (because unless you use a taxi or get someone to drop you there, they'd claim you have no problems using public transport) and damned if you don't turn up.

 

nurse says i could use a wheelchair to aid mobility

 

Unless you've used one many times before and have had no problems at all, I would love to know how they'd know this? Reminds of my DLA. I claim that no aids work; as does my consultant. Person who has never seen me, claims they'll work.

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yep you are damned whichever way you turn....if you sit down, you can work...if you stand up you can work....if you have mobility issues..use a wheelchair....and a load of others that i am sure posters on here can elaborate on...

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I wouldnt bank on it...but who knows? i too have mobility issues...failed with 0 points as nurse says i could use a wheelchair to aid mobility....fact is i dont have one...cant access one...but they dont care.....keep us informed...mine wasnt a grilling either...nurse was nice.sympathetic, concerned...but still stabbed in back...her report was almost based on fiction....

 

I read on rightsnet that someone can goto a wheelchair centre, try to use one and if they fail to do this propel 200metres (Which apparently is actually very hard to do anyway even for a fully fit person) then they can use that as evidence against the ATOS claims. I do think eventually tho this wheelchair thing will get beaten, its based on assumption and a judical case would nail it dead.

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i will have to try that.....will they give me a report if i cant do the 200m bearing in mind to get to the busstop at my place is half a mile down a 1 in 3 hill and then another half a mile up a 1 in 3....don't even think i have the energy to even push the bloody thing up the hill lol

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OK another update....

 

Today I received the letter I asked for to verify that they could not record my assessment on 3rd July and that it would be held at a later date in August as the ATOS employee told me and this a word for word copy of what it says......

 

Dear Mrs XXXXX,

 

I have received your request to obtain an audio recording of your medical assessment.

Unfortunately we are unable to provide the service at present.

Therefore your appointment on 3rd July 2012 will not be audio recorded.

 

I apologise for any inconvenience caused.

 

yours sincerely,

 

XXXXXX

 

In my view this was saying tough luck we are not doing it.........

 

I rang them straight away and said that I am within my rights to have my assessment recorded and why was I sent a letter that gave no options?

 

I was told that it was a standard letter.... which I must add does not look like any correspondence from a multi million company, it is on cheap A4 paper and looks like it has been typed up by a someone who has no experience in this field.....

 

I was also told that I would have to wait till the equipment was repaired, which tbh does not bother me as I am already in a WRAG group, I fully empathise with those that are still in the assessment stage. Again I asked for a letter formally cancelling the appointment on 3rd July due to their inability to provide the correct equipment.

 

I am also sending a recorded delivery letter for this request to both ATOS and DWP as I am not prepared to go down as a no show and get sanctioned.

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OK another update....

 

Today I received the letter I asked for to verify that they could not record my assessment on 3rd July and that it would be held at a later date in August as the ATOS employee told me and this a word for word copy of what it says......

 

Dear Mrs XXXXX,

 

I have received your request to obtain an audio recording of your medical assessment.

Unfortunately we are unable to provide the service at present.

Therefore your appointment on 3rd July 2012 will not be audio recorded.

 

I apologise for any inconvenience caused.

 

yours sincerely,

 

XXXXXX

 

In my view this was saying tough luck we are not doing it.........

 

I rang them straight away and said that I am within my rights to have my assessment recorded and why was I sent a letter that gave no options?

 

I was told that it was a standard letter.... which I must add does not look like any correspondence from a multi million company, it is on cheap A4 paper and looks like it has been typed up by a someone who has no experience in this field.....

 

I was also told that I would have to wait till the equipment was repaired, which tbh does not bother me as I am already in a WRAG group, I fully empathise with those that are still in the assessment stage. Again I asked for a letter formally cancelling the appointment on 3rd July due to their inability to provide the correct equipment.

 

I am also sending a recorded delivery letter for this request to both ATOS and DWP as I am not prepared to go down as a no show and get sanctioned.

 

I have had at least 4 cancellations (lost count), not a single one has had written confirmation. I think this is for legal reasons so incase this sort of stuff ever enters into a alegal argument us claimants have minimal evidence. In the other thread tho someone has reported the rights to have a recording has been removed which might explain the letter you did get.

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ah, now here is the crafty bit....government figures suggest that claiments are 'not asking' for it to be recorded, so they are now considering withdrawing the option...of course people are asking..but being told..equipment not available, broken, etc etc...so if it is not being used it is NOT WANTED catch22 me thinks

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What needs to happen now is for this guyhttp://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forums/viewthread/2810/ or someone like him to cite the delay caused by non compliance of the right to a recorded assessment in a tribunal case, it might open a can of worms!

 

Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges

 

Being poor is like being a Pelican. No matter where you look, all you see is a large bill.

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You have always been able to covertly record but

 

if you are discovered the assessment will be terminated immediately and

 

you may or may not be allowed to use a transcript of the recording in a tribunal, it's up to the chair, but you almost certainly would not be able to use the actual recording without the permission of the assessor

 

The appointment for which I was assured recording equipment would be available has now been cancelled, with no reason given.

RMW

"If you want my parking space, please take my disability" Common car park sign in France.

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Hi all,

Yet another update.....

 

Yesterday I emailed the person who had sent the letter mentioned in my post (19) asking for the written confirmation regarding my assessment appt being cancelled due to their inability to provide recording equipment and as of yet haven't even received an auto reply in acknowledgment, which IMO is totally unprofessional and unbecoming of an agency paid millions to act on the DWP's behalf.

 

So this morning at 8:00am I was on the phone to the ESA. After going through the new automated phone system they have, which they say you only have to go through one time after giving a memorable date and choosing a pin number to use for future telephone contact, which I may add is not right as I have done the whole 4 min episode 2 times now, I was on hold listening to that abysmal music for another further 31 mins:( I spoke to an operator explaining that I had contacted ATOS regarding my assessment being recorded and went through all contact that I had had with them, I voiced my concern that they had failed to provide firm written confirmation that my appt for 3rd July had been cancelled due to their lack of being able to provide the service that I am entitled to. He stated there was nothing they could do, which I already knew but I asked him to make a record of my call as I wanted them to know that the cancellation was not due to me being a 'No show', which could cause them to stop payments.

 

I then phoned ATOS to be told that the appt had been cancelled and so had the one for the 17th July????????????? I have never had any contact regarding one on the 17th July..... I asked again for written confirmation of both cancellations stating the reason why only to be told they don't do that.:( IMO they may try to make it look like I have cancelled the appts for no valid reason which would lead to sanctions. I fully agree with you Worried33, but I am not going to let this lie........

 

I am going to contact my MP who just happens to be a Tory and provide him with all the information I have on this matter and see if he has the b**** to address the problem, I am not holding my breath.... not that I have a lot to hold.

 

Odset ~I agree someone somewhere needs to start some form of action but it can't be done by one person alone.........

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informing your mp is going to in my experience be less than useless....and mines a labour man...he was totally useless...unable and unwilling to get involved....they are going to remove this 'right' due to lack of demand....yet nowhere in any phone calls or letters do they happen to mention that 'you can have the session recorded' we have to keep pushing for this to be allowed, but i fear that it may soon be removed

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The more I think about it the more it seem obvious that ATOS would do all in their power to subvert recording assessments, it is totally not in their best interests.

 

While the current system remains ATOS can go about the business of benefit denial behind closed doors with no checks or balances applied, the DWP who seem to hang on ATOS's every word are happy to stand back and wash their hands, if evidence of malpractice is brought to light via a recording then the government as embodied by the DWP are duty bound to act surely?

 

This would not be good news for all concerned except the injured party, Grayling is happy to pay lip service to recordings for the moment, once enough evidence has been presented by ATOS/DWP to the effect that no one has to date taken up the offer, it will be withdrawn due to lack of interest.

 

Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges

 

Being poor is like being a Pelican. No matter where you look, all you see is a large bill.

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