Barclaycard

[reduk054]

Duffersmum, hi again.

I think that Barclaycard need to be sent an SAR to establish exactly what charges are being applied, and what they have charged you while you have been trying to clear your debt (I know that you are trying to pay them off, and understand that it is a circle where you pay them off and then still get inundated with charges which can be quite depressing).

Seeing as you are aknowledging the debt, then realistically you need to be in a position where you can pay off what you owe, without all of the extra charges, so once you have established what is penalty charges then you can send a preliminary letter requesting a refund, while still paying the balance of what you do owe.

I am not sure if they will respond if you tell them that you have contacted TS, and it seems as though you are struggling to get TS to respond to your complaint in the first place. I think that TS will contact them directly.

So next step, send an SAR with your £10 fee to BC, and see if you can reduce the amount you owe!

Red

[Duffers Mum]

Thanks Red, up until a few months ago I never had any charges on any of my accounts, so the charges make up only a small amount of the debt, the debt itself is not that large (£4K) so I think i'll hold fire on the SAR for now and wait until I'm in a position to do the F&F thing, they I can negotiate them down (hopefully) although as stated above they will be last in the queue anyway

[reduk054]

Hi Duffersmum, that is fair enough about the charges and the SAR, if they are only a small proportion. I can see that at some point in the future you can haggle for a better F&F!

Have TS replied? Do you have a contact number instead?

Red

 

How about a letter to ask them to freeze the interest and charges while you pay off what you can?

I found this letter helpful from National Debt Line

http://www.nationaldebtline.co.uk/england_wales/temp/4792_49401.pdf

[Duffers Mum]

Red - I've tried all that, they just reply with letters asking me to ring them I sent that letter to Goldfish and they stopped interest and charges which I wasn't expecting them to do as they appeared not very helpful when I first contacted them, B/C are just a law unto themselves unfortunately, from reading on here I know I'm not the only person to find them stubborn and unhelpful, be interesting to see if they take me to court over it, not sure how long that takes but hopefully i'll be in a position to at least pay off some of my creditors next year and then I should be able to restart at least the minimum payments to the ones who've not given me any assistance - appreciate all your help

[reduk054]

Duffersmum, it sounds as though you really have gone down all of the avenues you can

1) letters to BC

2) CCA request

3) paying what you can afford

4) not getting too stressed, and keeping a clear head

5) contacting trading standards.

I am really disappointed with BC. I have found them stubborn and unhelpful. Why is it that they feel that they are better than everyone else? All my other creditors have frozen interest (like you found with Goldfish) and accepted token payments until I can afford to pay more. BC have not.

If BC are so stringent in debt collection, why do they lend so willingly in the first place?!

I would re-iterate that you stick to your guns, pay what you can afford. IF the time comes when you can negotiate a F&F settlement, then hopefully you can pay off the debt, but yes, they will remain futher down the list!

I would still chase up your complaint with TS. Would it be worth you also complaining directly to BC, to say that you will consider contacting the Financial Ombudman Service? When they send you their final response then you can contact the FOS to see if they can intervene.

Hopefully BC will not take any further action, but they do seem to pass on the debt to various DCAs at the drop of a hat!

Good luck, and hope that you can resolve this one amicably!

Red

[Duffers Mum]

Well I've written a letter today (and the same one to Sainsbury's who are also being stubborn) telling them i'm continuing to make payments as a gesture of goodwill, that they continue to be in default, that I have reported them to TS and the Ombudsman (even though I've still to do that bit!), I'll probably have a few more letters from Mercers, but I will just CCA them if they send anything else and await another copy of my application form! I can be just as stubborn as they can, I'm sure as somebody mentioned above that Barclaycard think all their customers are stupid, well this one isn't! I'll keep this thread updated as when I receive any further correspondence from them. One good thing about this postal strike is that its keeping the letters away from the mat!

[reduk054]

Hi Duffersmum, I have to say that you have spurred me on in my own quest with BC, and like you I am so narked with the fact that they just treat their customers so poorly. Why is it that even when you prove financial hardship even if only temporary, they still are the only co (that I have encountered) who continue to apply charges and interest.

Anyway, i agree with what you have done, i.e. nominal payment, writing to them (where do you adress your complaints to by the way - and make sure you write COMPLAINT in big letters at the top of your correspondance so that when you do contact TS/OFT you can copy the letters to them as well!) and I too am finding the lack of post a bit of fresh air! (but part of me cant help but be curious as to what is waiting for me!!!)

Well done!

Red

[Duffers Mum]

Hi Red, I've always sent my letters to the 1234 Pavilion Drive, NOrthampton address, I'm sending my letter off tomorrow and will head it in big letters COMPLAINT as you suggest. I've found Sainsbury's who are in cahoots with Halifax, I believe, to be just as obstructive, and have acted in exactly the same way I even received their Default Notice the same day as I received Barclaycard's. They too only sent me a copy of the application form. Still waiting to hear back from TS, if I've heard nothing by the end of the week I might try giving them a ring, I suppose it could be because they are inundated with complaints about Barclaycard, but an acknowledgement from them would at least let me know they have received my emails, can't get good customer service these days for love or money! I'll keep you posted btw, thanks for the reputation comment

[miss muppet]

Hi Duffers Mum, all very frustrating isen't it? Sainsburys are Halifax and HBOS and Blair Oliver & Scott (BOS) Bank of Scotland, once you have sent the letter of complaint, you will get their usual letter, we are going to take a hundred years to deal with your complaint(exaggeration but you get the picture) then you can send a file off to FOS. Have just done this with Barclaycard for my hubby, still to do for my daughter (this b.post thing gets on your nerves, altho as you say at least you don't hear from them)

The adding charges and interest thing is exactly why we went after them for the CCA and why we are not paying them anymore, if they can't behave like human beings why humour them!

You and Red keep your chins up and keep the faith. M:)

[reduk054]

Hi Miss Muppet and Duffers Mum, well I have learned something from the last two posts, regarding Sainsbury's and Halifax/BOS. At least i only do my weekly shopping there, and have no finance!

TY for the address for Barclaycard DM, hope that I wont have to use that too soon!

Glad that you have taken the action that you have against BC, Miss M, they really do make repaying your debt difficult! And you made me laugh with your final sentence. When I was an office junior I had a friend/colleague who once when I was upset told me to keep my chinS up (suggesting that I had two or more chins!)). Needless to say that used to bring a smile to my face (which lifts the chin area LOL), and you brought back a happy memory!

Thanks girlies,

Love Red xx

[Duffers Mum]

Well I've received a letter from Barclaycard today thanking me for taking the time to contact them regarding the level of service received from them. They didn't state which letter of mine they are responding too! They are now dealing with my correspondence at their Stockon on Tees office and they aim to resolve matters by 22nd October (excuse me while I stop myself laughing!) Also received my monthly statement today and whilst they are still charging me interest, they appear to have stopped adding their fees (no doubt realising I will be claiming them back at some point). Now I just need them to stop charging the interest and I will stop bothering them. I've not received anything further as yet from Mercers, although no doubt something will pop through the door shortly as I did rather upset the obnoxious idiot who I had the pleasure of speaking to on the phone on the one, and only, occasion I rang them. I'll post again when I hear anything else

[reduk054]

Hey Duffers Mum,

well done with the charges, I wonder which letter they responded to as well (then I can send the same one LOL).

Seeing as you are now dealing with their specialist dept (ahem!) in S-on-T, maybe they will stop the interest (flying pigs).

22nd Oct will be interesting (pardon the pun!)

Red

[Duffers Mum]

Well post back to normal now and I've received another letter from the wonderful Sonya Simmonds, Court Orders and Disclosure Manager Legal & Regularly Compliance at Barclaycard today, stating. "with reference to the Creditor or Debtor signature box or signatures the Consumer Credit (Cancelleation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1993 state that there is no requirement for a copy of an Executed Agreement to contain any signature box, any date and signature." Therefore they state the credit agreement has been properly executed and is therefore enforceable. They must advise me they will resume their collection and recovery policy. They suggest if I'm experiencing difficulty keeping up with my monthly payments I contact their Customer Services Department so that a satisfactory arrangement can be made to facilitate my unique requirements. Are they having a laugh or what! I tried that before I reduced my payments and they as good as told me, sorry go away thats not enough!

 

The document they sent me is still an application form, whatever they say, its not got the APR on it and its even got my mother's maiden name on it, since when has that been on an executed agreement! Plus there is no credit limit and the attached T&C's state they are dated Nov05/01, the charges shown on it, are £15 if you don't make minimum payment etc, they are now £12 but i'm sure back in 2001 when I applied for this card they were higher than £15.

 

Can an application form be used also as an executed agreement?

 

I presume I just stand my ground now, carry on making my £10 payments and let them continue to chase me. Do I also CCA Mercers if they start writing to me again.

 

Advice gratefully received as always, getting very frustrated with this now.

[alfwithhair]

You are lucky to receive anything from them. My B/C accounts were slipped of to AllianceOne and RMA, or NCO under a disgise. They never accepted my reduced payment, same excuse, sorry not enough.

 

Well tough, thats all I am offering, but they didn't like that so slid the accouts on to DCA without bothering to tell me. when I CCA'ed B/C told me we are no longer managing the accounts, but still never said who was. SO stopped paying them anything.

 

CCA'ed both these useless DCA companies, never got nothing, NO CCA, NO REPLY, Zilch. So both accounts are in serious dispute.

 

I hope you do get better treatment then I did, my experiences with B/C is they tell you one thing and then denie it. So I wish you luck with this one as they seem never to give up, they are not managing my account any longer they told me, but they keep writing treat o grams, even though they have slapped two DCA's on the trail.

 

They are just a waste of space and a disgusting example of how to operate a "do what we say or else" company.

[shane5408]

Well post back to normal now and I've received another letter from the wonderful Sonya Simmonds, Court Orders and Disclosure Manager Legal & Regularly Compliance at Barclaycard today, stating. "with reference to the Creditor or Debtor signature box or signatures the Consumer Credit (Cancelleation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1993 state that there is no requirement for a copy of an Executed Agreement to contain any signature box, any date and signature." Therefore they state the credit agreement has been properly executed and is therefore enforceable. They must advise me they will resume their collection and recovery policy. They suggest if I'm experiencing difficulty keeping up with my monthly payments I contact their Customer Services Department so that a satisfactory arrangement can be made to facilitate my unique requirements. Are they having a laugh or what! I tried that before I reduced my payments and they as good as told me, sorry go away thats not enough!

 

The document they sent me is still an application form, whatever they say, its not got the APR on it and its even got my mother's maiden name on it, since when has that been on an executed agreement! Plus there is no credit limit and the attached T&C's state they are dated Nov05/01, the charges shown on it, are £15 if you don't make minimum payment etc, they are now £12 but i'm sure back in 2001 when I applied for this card they were higher than £15.

 

Can an application form be used also as an executed agreement?

 

I presume I just stand my ground now, carry on making my £10 payments and let them continue to chase me. Do I also CCA Mercers if they start writing to me again.

 

Advice gratefully received as always, getting very frustrated with this now.

 

Hiya,

 

to be honest if you're happy making the £10 payments to them then keep on doing so. In my opinion while they are receiving some sort of payment from you they won't take any further action, especially given that you've demonstrated you are aware of your rights under the act and what they must do to satisfy their legal obligations.

 

I would write back to them though with regard to their supposed belief to have correctly sent you a tue copy of the agreement. something along the lines of:

 

 

 

Dear Idiots,

 

I refer to your letter dated ../../07. you seem to be under the impression Barclays has satisfied its obligations in providing a true copy of the credit agreement. Rather embarrasing I would think that an esteemed financial organisation such as yourselves could overlook and miscontrue the regulations in this way. You have correctly pointed out Section 180 (1) (b) allows the omission of certain information about the debtor including but not limited to the signature. However, you have overlooked the information that is required to be included as per the Regulations which i will now explain to you.

 

You have failed to supply me with a copy of the terms & conditions applicable to my account at the time it was opened. This constitutes a breach of contract and places Barclays in default. While in default you are not able to enforce the debt in any way.

 

Section 2(2) (a) reads 'A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not satisfied unless the copy supplied is in the prescribed form and conforms to the prescribed requirements;'

 

And more importantly

 

Section 2(b) reads 'A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not infringed by the omission of any material, or its inclusion in condensed form, if that is authorised by regulations.'

 

As evidenced above it is clear while certain information may be excluded the rest of the document must be intact and forthcoming in form and content as prescribed in the regulations.

 

The regulations, more specifically Statuatory Instruments 1983/1557 state what can be omitted as follows

 

The regulations state:

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy; (b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancelable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

 

It is quite clear what can be omitted from the copy document, what is being overlooked is the part highlighted, this again asserts that all other details of the agreement should presented in form and content as required by the regulations.

 

The requirements of the Agreement regulations 1983/1553 are very explicit in describing the form and content of an agreement and this as I have demonstrated also applies to the copy of any such agreement with the above mentioned provisons.

 

I find it preposterous a consumer such as myself should have to educate you on these matters. I look forward to your response and would ask you address the aformentioned forthwith.

 

Your Due dilligence in this matter is required,

 

regards,

 

xx

[Duffers Mum]

Shane - Thanks for that. My signature is showing clearly on the "application form" however nobody has signed it on behalf of Barclaycard, surely that alone means they haven't complied with my request. The document they have sent merely proves I applied for a card and signed and dated the application, they have provided a copy of the T&C's twice, but showing different amounts for charges (i've only just spotted this) the first lot show £15 per charge etc, the second lot show £12, both of these i'm sure are much more recent than 2001! What I don't understand is why I ask for a true copy of my original agreement but they don't have to produce it to comply - perhaps you could enlighten me on that?

[shane5408]

Shane - Thanks for that. My signature is showing clearly on the "application form" however nobody has signed it on behalf of Barclaycard, surely that alone means they haven't complied with my request. The document they have sent merely proves I applied for a card and signed and dated the application, they have provided a copy of the T&C's twice, but showing different amounts for charges (i've only just spotted this) the first lot show £15 per charge etc, the second lot show £12, both of these i'm sure are much more recent than 2001! What I don't understand is why I ask for a true copy of my original agreement but they don't have to produce it to comply - perhaps you could enlighten me on that?

 

It is rather confusing isn't it! The idea behind a 'true copy' is that it should be exactly that, a copy from the original. However Financial Companies / Banks use a technicality in the Regulations to effectively get out of having to show you the original. As a result they send an application form / or a reconstructed agreeement and try and palm that off to the debtor desperately hoping they get away with it!

 

Unfortunately they are able to omit the debtors signature, however what they cannot omit is all the terms of the agreement as stipulated by the Act and Regulations. There is also no mention whatsoever in the Act or REgulations that allows for any terms to be in a completely seperate document tited T&C's, all these terms should be in the agreement itself.

 

Keep in mind as well we are only talking about their obligations to supply you with a valid 'true copy' here. For them to be able to enforce it the agreement must contain ALL prescribed terms and be signed by you. This is the bare minimum for a judge/court to consider granting an enforcement order.

 

kind regards,

shane

[Duffers Mum]

Thanks again Shane, I get a bit worried every now and then, I guess if they tried to enforce this particular document in court, they would get precisely nowhere I don't think I'll enlighten them as per your letter because if it ever goes to court I would prefer for it to be brought up then, I don't particularly want to forewarn them. What gets me more than anything is I'm not even trying to get out of paying, I'll happily pay them what I can afford at the moment and then as soon as I'm a bit straighter I'll be able to recommence my normal albeit minimum repayments, but no thats not good enough for them (or Sainsbury's) all other creditors have agreed, stopped interest and charges. Barclaycard unfortunately think they are a law unto themselves. If Mercers contact me again, should I CCA them as well or will they just send me the same document that Barclaycard have?

[pt2537]

yep i agree with you shane, and the DCAs rely upon your naivety with regards to the law when they send you a application form as most people who are told by a DCA that they are right and have complied wiwth the law will believe whatthey are being told

 

however,as CAG members we know different

 

in my opinion, it would be prudent to CCA mercers as well if they try to collect on the debt, then if they send you the same document you can tell them to S0D ORF too

 

regards

paul

[shane5408]

in my opinion, it would be prudent to CCA mercers as well if they try to collect on the debt, then if they send you the same document you can tell them to S0D ORF too

 

regards

paul

 

thats good advice:D

[Duffers Mum]

Thanks Guys sometimes wonder what I did before I discoved CAG and all the helpful people on here, I'm forever singing this site's praises

[Duffers Mum]

Today I've received another letter from B/C this time from a Customer Relationship Manager. They state, and I quote

 

"As far as we are aware we have met our obligation under Section 78 of the CCA. I have enclosed the relevant infromation of a Credit Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. The Barclaycard Terms and Conditions that are applicable to your account will be sent under separate cover. As detailed in your letter, you have already received a copy of your application form. At the time you applied for your credit card the executed agreement was incorporated into the application form. You signed a credit agreement in the prescribed form which embodied the full terms and conditions of your credit agreement in accordance with the terms of Section 61 of the CCA. The prescribed financial information together with the full terms and conditions of your agreement were set out on the reverse or otherwise incorporated inot the application form and were specifically referred to in the credit agreement section which contains your signature.

 

As you are now in receipt of a copy of the relevant documents in the prescribed format the bank consider the outstanding debt on your above account for which you have had the benefit of credit by contractual consent to be enforceable."

 

The document they have enclosed is headed Barclaycard Conditions of Use.

 

OK, so that to me is as clear as mud, but doesn't detract from the fact that nowhere on the application form or the terms and conditions does it show a credit limit! The T&C's they've sent me on two separate occasions are each different to the other surely if the T&C's were on the reverse of the application form, they would be able to send me them and not some T&C's from a date in the recent past rather than 2001.

 

I know they are stubborn, but I can be just as stubborn.

 

Have they complied or not, any ideas?

[shane5408]

Today I've received another letter from B/C this time from a Customer Relationship Manager. They state, and I quote

 

"As far as we are aware we have met our obligation under Section 78 of the CCA. I have enclosed the relevant infromation of a Credit Agreement regularted by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. The Barclaycard Terms and Conditions that are applicable to your account will be sent under separate cover. As detailed in your letter, you have already received a copy of your application form. At the time you applied for your credit card the executed agreement was incorporated into the application form. You signed a credit agreement in the prescribed form which embodied the full terms and conditions of your credit agreement in accordance with the terms of Section 61 of the CCA. The prescribed financial information together with the full terms and conditions of your agreement were set out on the reverse or otherwise incorporated inot the application form and were specifically referred to in the credit agreement section which contains your signature.

 

As you are now in receipt of a copy of the relevant documents in the prescribed format the bank consider the outstanding debt on your above account for which you have had the benefit of credit by contractual consent to be enforceable."

 

OK, so that to me is as clear as mud, but doesn't detract from the fact that nowhere on the application form or the terms and conditions does it show a credit limit! The T&C's they've sent me on two separate occasions are each different to the other surely if the T&C's were on the reverse of the application form, they would be able to send me them and not some T&C's from a date in the recent past rather than 2001.

 

I know they are stubborn, but I can be just as stubborn.

 

Have they complied or not, any ideas?

 

Hiya,

 

they have stated there were terms of the agreement on the reverse of the agreement which means they have to supply it, rememeber the ACt says you shall be provided 'a copy of the executed agreement'(f any) and any other document referred to in it.' They have not complied fully with your s78 request as they have not provided a copy of the terms on the reverse of the document, as such they remain in default and are not able to enforce the debt.

 

kind regards,

shane

[Duffers Mum]

Hi Shane - Thats what I thought, if they had the original document they'd have been able to provide a proper copy of both sides wouldn't they? I'm pretty sure the T&C's they sent are from quite recently as one says charges of £15 and the other £12, I think when I took my card out in 2001 the charges were far higher than that, I'm sure I'm worrying over nothing, but that no doubt is their plan, its seems pointless my keep writing back to them when they just come up with the "we've complied" reply. I'll have to sit tight and hope they don't take the matter to court. Whether they know they haven't complied properly and are just trying it on to try and get me to pay more remains to be seen. However I think I'm right in saying that without a credit limit showing on any of the documents they've sent its unenforceable by that alone

[shane5408]

However I think I'm right in saying that without a credit limit showing on any of the documents they've sent its unenforceable by that alone

 

You are correct:D

 

Remember either they have to show the credit limit as a monetary figure, or say that it will be determined and sent to you

 

kind regards,

shane