Bus lane fine - please help

[bardigiano]

Just a quick two questions about about these bus lane PCNs:

 

1) What time limit do they have to issue the PCN from the date of the contravention?

 

2) If the surname is spelled incorrectly, two letter swapped round - is the PCN still valid?

 

Thanks for your help

[felix01]

One other question for anyone that can help, the PCN states that to take advantage of TfL's bargain 50% discount I need to pay within 14 days of its receipt. Given that I have made a representation instead I'm not absolutely sure where that leaves me should I lose my appeal - since I assume I'm not likely to get a response before the 14 days are up. I would be livid if by doing this I run the risk of paying the full whack. The PCN suggests that so long as I make my representation within 14 days I should be OK, but is that definitely the case?

 

Thanks

[pin1onu]

One other question for anyone that can help, the PCN states that to take advantage of TfL's bargain 50% discount I need to pay within 14 days of its receipt. Given that I have made a representation instead I'm not absolutely sure where that leaves me should I lose my appeal - since I assume I'm not likely to get a response before the 14 days are up. I would be livid if by doing this I run the risk of paying the full whack. The PCN suggests that so long as I make my representation within 14 days I should be OK, but is that definitely the case?

 

Thanks

I think the normal thing is that if your informal representations they will give you a further 14 days to pay at the reduced rate starting from the date the rejection notice was served.

 

You have the choice of then paying up or making a formal appeal (and losing the discounted rate).

[JKL]

ARGH! I'm so annoyed. I've just received a PCN for the exact same spot. The photo clearly shows me on a piece of road that says 'Bus Stop' just after zig zag lines.

 

I remember specifically not entering the bus lane earlier in the road because you weren't allowed to. Then I entered here because I thought I was allowed. It's very unclear.

 

Has anyone else successfully appealed or shall I just pay while it's £60 instead of £120? I would rather be spending the money on something else.

[green_and_mean]

ARGH! I'm so annoyed. I've just received a PCN for the exact same spot. The photo clearly shows me on a piece of road that says 'Bus Stop' just after zig zag lines.

 

I remember specifically not entering the bus lane earlier in the road because you weren't allowed to. Then I entered here because I thought I was allowed. It's very unclear.

 

Has anyone else successfully appealed or shall I just pay while it's £60 instead of £120? I would rather be spending the money on something else.

 

There is no 'bus lane ends' sign so you cannot just assume that the Bus Stop is not a part of the bus lane.

[lamma]

the TSRGD is not guidance. It is a Statutory Instrument.

 

check out davies v heatley

 

Because by s.64(2) of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 traffic signs shall be of the size, colour and type prescribed by regulation, if a sign the contravention of which is an offence contrary to s.36 is not as prescribed by the regulation, no offence is committed if the sign is contravened, even if the sign is clearly recognisable to a reasonable man as a sign of that kind

 

councils hate that one for some reason

 

Parking News Archive: Davies v Heatley [1971] RTR 145 QBD 4th Feb 1971

[green_and_mean]

the TSRGD is not guidance. It is a Statutory Instrument.

 

check out davies v heatley

 

Because by s.64(2) of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 traffic signs shall be of the size, colour and type prescribed by regulation, if a sign the contravention of which is an offence contrary to s.36 is not as prescribed by the regulation, no offence is committed if the sign is contravened, even if the sign is clearly recognisable to a reasonable man as a sign of that kind

 

councils hate that one for some reason

 

Parking News Archive: Davies v Heatley [1971] RTR 145 QBD 4th Feb 1971

 

 

Exactly therefore the bus lane is valid the TSRGD states that the markings must cease prior to a zig zag and re-start after. This does not mean that bus stops and crossings are not part of the Bus Lane, I cannot see how anyone would think a Bus Stop would not be in a Bus Lane, why would anyone create a Bus Lane and then stop it immediately before a Bus Stop? If the Bus Lane markings continued thru the crossing it would be contary to the TRSGD which would be ilegal, as it is as you state THE LAW!

[JKL]

I'm not an expert on the law and most of the regulations seem like a foreign language. However, it seems to me that when experienced drivers who are trying to obey the rules are being caught out at the same spot, something isn't right there.

 

I've never received a speeding fine, PCN, had any points on my license or even (excluding my first months as a driver) had a parking ticket. I'm no saint but I try to avoid getting fined.

 

It seemed like a new bus lane with different rules. In future I'll look out for a 'bus lane ends' sign.

[gileshb]

Hi Bianca1771 (or anyone),

Just got caught 3 times by this camera the other week and have appealed, using some of the arguments posted above, so fingers crossed. Also I visited the site and was intrigued to discover that the bus lane ends just 20m from the traffic lights for the left turn into Brixton Road. I have read on the DfT website that bus lanes should end 30m ahead of a major left turn, so I believe it actually contravenes DfT regulations, which I have pointed out. I'd be very interested to know if you appealed to the adjudicators (assuming my first attempt is unsuccessful).

Thanks!

Have you had any luck with this yet? I wrote to them about haw many PCN's have been issued from that one camera, 19731 in the last 12 months alone is the answer I got back there has to be inadequet markings etc to issue this number.

[green_and_mean]

Have you had any luck with this yet? I wrote to them about haw many PCN's have been issued from that one camera, 19731 in the last 12 months alone is the answer I got back there has to be inadequet markings etc to issue this number.

 

Even if the Camera was only in force 12 hours a day thats only 4.5 vehicles an hour do NOT understand the signs, considering the road has a constant flow of traffic during the day the vast majority do realise its a Bus Lane.

[Luke Ash]

Hello, I found this thread while searching for advice on getting a totally unexpected bus lane PCN on the (apparently infamous) Camberwell New Road.

I emailed the council asking them to send me documentary evidence of this, as I was convinced I had not gone into a bus lane.

I heard nothing back for several weeks, but got a letter this morning telling me that due to a 'processing error' my penalty charge had been cancelled.

I'd strongly reccommend everyone ask for evidence of their offence. I've no doubt I'd be £120 poorer if I hadn't sent that email.

[strada101]

Hi all.... I too had a PCN issued for this exact spot...

 

I emailed them this... and they cancelled it.

 

To whom it may concern,

 

I am writing to you to make representations against a Penalty Charge Notice that I received recently from TFL Croydon.

 

The Reference Number is GT27274933

 

The reason that I feel that this Penalty Charge Notice is unfair is simply because the road markings and signage are not comprehensive and clear enough in this instance.

 

All across London and indeed around the area that the alleged contravention took place a Bus Lane is divided from the normal traffic lane by a thick white line. As you can see from the CCTV pictures that you have of my vehicle, I changed lanes approaching a set of traffic lights where the thick white line had stopped.

 

The thick white line then continues for what can only be a few metres before the traffic lights, where if you are trying to be a competent and safe road user you should have selected the relevant and most suitable lane in which to continue your journey. As you are aware, the junction in question is filled with a large yellow boxed area and many people in this instance, and indeed the pictures, are filtering right causing a great deal of congestion.

 

There is a very small sign indicating the end of the bus lane which is not clearly readable from where I changed lanes and there is absolutely no question that I was deliberately flouting the Road Traffic Act or Highway Code.

 

In my observations the thick white line doesn't disappear at any other pedestrian crossing in the area, so why is this an exception ?

 

This is from the TFL appeals process pdf...

 

 

Other considerations for representations

We recognise that there are other reasons for you to challenge a

A representation made on this basis would be rejected by us unless

the vehicle drove in the bus lane for less than 20 metres prior to

making the left turn. We would confirm this by viewing the video

evidence available. It is important to note that there is an

exemption in the Traffic Management Order, which allows a vehicle

to enter a bus lane under these circumstances. This is taken into

consideration when enforcing all bus lanes.

 

 

I would like to know how long the bus lane is before the junction and would be more than happy to go and measure it myself if necessary as I am absolutely certain that it is less than 20 metres.

 

Is the Traffic Enforcement Officer in question aware of your guidelines as written on the TFL website ?

 

I have also found a website with a great deal of posts on it's forum about this very location and allegedly you have received over £2 million in fines and caught over 20,000 motorists with this camera. It is also said to be the highest earning camera in London, a coincidence ? I don't think so.

 

One such case is absolutely identical to mine and the pictures are posted there with only the vehicle being different to my case. They appealed to yourselves and the PCN was cancelled as it was adjudged, as I indeed also feel, to be inadequately signed.

 

I hope that this email finds you well and trust that I have eloquently and clearly stated my grounds for appeal and the PCN is cancelled.

 

Should these representations be rejected then please treat this as a request under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 for the following documents:

 

a) A copy of the bus lane order or regulation giving effect to the Bus Lane.

 

b) A copy of the Safety Audit for this road layout.

 

c) A copy of the engineer’s scale diagrams showing the layout of this Bus Lane, the road markings and the signage (including warnings of camera enforcement).

 

d) Copies of any approvals of deviations of signage from TSRGD.

 

e) Logs of maintenance visits verifying existence and condition of the signs.

 

f) Certification of type approval of the CCTV device.

 

g) Details of the number of times that the videotape used has been degaussed and reused.

 

h) A copy of the Camera Enforcement logbook recording the alleged contravention.

 

i) Copies of the still images showing all the required information in the correct order.

 

j) The number of PCNs issued by TfL in respect of this location.

 

k) The number of PCNs issued by TfL in respect of this location and cancelled by them following informal challenges.

 

l) The number of PCNs issued by TfL in respect of this location and cancelled by them following formal appeal to them.

 

m) The number of PCNs issued by TfL in respect of this location and cancelled following appeal to a PATAS adjudicator.

 

n) The number of PCNs issued by TfL in respect of this location and not pursued by them for any other reason.

 

I will then pass them to my legal team for further appeal.

 

Thank you for your time, I hope to hear from you soon

 

Warmest Regards

 

 

 

BTW... my 'legal team' consists of advice from my Dad who is a lawyer....

[Guest Ting]

Despite the numerous posts and victims in this thread it still isn't clearly defined whether or not the Bus Lane is correctly signed. Pics seem unavailable now? what about the two 'commencement' signs? are they there?

Strada, well done. I think you actually got 'em by frightening them off with the request for stats! rather than any technicality. Useful ploy and I just loved the "warmest regards". LOL.

-

[Fobia]

Guys, I'm so sorry it has taken this long for me to put up any update regarding my case with TFL for the PCN's received on Camberwell Road J\W Brixton road, I know a lot of people have been left with a hole in there pocket and some cynics on this forum, have been against some who try and get leverage on their time and busy life by driving.

 

Also some have simply said yes! I won my case, however they refused to show integrity by helping others. In my case, I had the confidence to fight back against my initial 4 PCN's on this stretch of the within 2 days and I lost out on 2, having had to pay the discounted price on the first one, the second & 3rd I paid the full price.

 

Then a 6 month afterwards I was sent a further 8 for the same period with the first 4 which made me furious, as I knew it was now becoming expensive to travel on the Camberwell road and I completely avoided the road and I knew something had to be done, due to not being able to convince the ADJUDICATOR initially, so I kept fighting till the ADJUDICATOR decided to put a hold on the further 8 PCN'S and visited the ** STRETCH OF ROAD ** with the markings himself.

 

This took me 1 year and after all the finding the ADJUDICATOR told TFL they were in the wrong for a few reasons and ordered them to cancel the all the 12 PCN'S they gave me and refund all my money totalling £180.00, what upset me a bit was that if the money had been in a bank account they will at least have given me interest.

 

Finally, I want you all to know that you can claim all your money back, using the single cases used a s a precedent and the new precedent I had set, making it 2 defence that this will make anyone’s case valid, as that was my saving Grace, so "with God on your side who can be against you".

 

I will be uploading necessary documentation required to help you appeal to the ADJUDICATOR to have all your cases re-opened and reviewed.

 

In the meantime, you might want to look up the case "salt coy v TFL "

[Fobia]

Oh! lest I forget, they have now changed the direction of the camera now to face Kenilworth road and the one on Kenilworth road, overlooks the park now, due to the evidence I got in form of photographs from this site and the one's I went around collecting from different borough's that had the required signage and display to help motorist complete there journey's safely

[BarnieP]

Finally, I want you all to know that you can claim all your money back, using the single cases used a s a precedent and the new precedent I had set, making it 2 defence that this will make anyone’s case valid, as that was my saving Grace, so "with God on your side who can be against you".

 

I will be uploading necessary documentation required to help you appeal to the ADJUDICATOR to have all your cases re-opened and reviewed.

 

Hi there, are these docs uploaded anywhere yet?

 

( and... how/where can I look up Salt Coy vs TFL? )

 

Thanks!

[freeway23]

I have received a letter today saying I was seen in a Bus lane by one of these cameras. Is the law the same as it is when you get a speeding fine? For example a notice of intended prosecution has to be served within 14 days of the offence? The date of the offence was 28th Aug and the notice was sent out on 15th sept.

 

Any feedback on this would be welcome. Many thanks

[nero12]

I have received a letter today saying I was seen in a Bus lane by one of these cameras. Is the law the same as it is when you get a speeding fine? For example a notice of intended prosecution has to be served within 14 days of the offence? The date of the offence was 28th Aug and the notice was sent out on 15th sept.

 

Any feedback on this would be welcome. Many thanks

they have 28 days to send out postal tickets from the date the incident occured.

 

there are expemtions for being in a bus lane mate, what happened here??

[freeway23]

I was like everyone else in a town I was nt famililar with, had to make a delivery, could nt turn left as it was Buses only, but the right turn was blocked, by a delivery truck and a bus. behind me I had taxis and buses sounding their horns for me to get out the way but I had no where to go, therefore my only option was to use the bus lane by turning left!

[nero12]

I was like everyone else in a town I was nt famililar with, had to make a delivery, could nt turn left as it was Buses only, but the right turn was blocked, by a delivery truck and a bus. behind me I had taxis and buses sounding their horns for me to get out the way but I had no where to go, therefore my only option was to use the bus lane by turning left!

was there a vehicle broken down, blocking the way forward

[freeway23]

Yes there was an obstruction, and I could nt turn right, other wise I was holding up the traffic behind me, which was mainly buses and taxis, which had the authority to turn left, therefore I was forced to turn left. I am going to appeal but I dont know how I will fair!

[Esinem]

This site is v close to me. It appears the camera is facing up the Camberwell New Rd towards the bus lane once again, i.e. pointing south away from Oval station. Obviously, the money this one makes is too good to miss. I'm all for it catching people deliberately hogging the bus lane but as we can see it is catching those who have no idea they are committing and offence and who would never deliberately do so. OTH, to get caught twice would be stupid and repeatedly would be moronic, regardless of where or how.