Guidelines - Requests For An Original Agreement Under The Consumer Credit Act 1974

[humbleman]

"The absence of a copy of a signed executed agreement is no evidence that such an agreement was not made," ruled Judge Waksman.

 

 

But isnt that in the context of what the COPY would look like?

 

Exactly.

[N.P]

They may be able to recreate them in any manner they like, but without a signature in ink, written by your own hand, it should then be thrown out.

 

Any recreation of any document with a copied signature should be classed as fraud!

[hsbcfiddled]

They may be able to recreate them in any manner they like, but without a signature in ink, written by your own hand, it should then be thrown out.

 

Any recreation of any document with a copied signature should be classed as fraud!

 

 

Exactly.

 

It is easy to say what it would have looked like.

 

But they sent me TWO copies.

 

And they were different from one another.

 

Which is precisely why it would have to be the original shown in court.

[Gazza112]

Hi All

 

I was advised that copy documents are only hearsay, and can't be used as evidence they need to produce the originals.

If they tried that than they would have to have the person who made up the copies there in Court on the day. To verify that the copy documents are the exact same as the original would of looked like at the time.

This is prosumming that the person still works at the company.

 

 

Gaz

[N.P]

And of course, any imbecile knows, the person who copies / makes up the documents is obviously going to say they would be the same, as he or she works for the company. They wouldn`t attend if they did.

 

Let`s face it, they`ll have all got together and got the their story together, even if it`s all lies.

 

Bankers simply can`t be trusted. They have proved this in the past with the way they handle our money.

 

DCA`s can`t be trusted. MP`s can`t be trusted. Everyone on earth is corrupt, even the system

 

Courts are there to protect the Banks and Goverment, and make a fudge packer out of the little guy.

[Raeline]

Jeez, talk about trying to prove a negative! How, other than there being no signed agreement, can you prove there was not a signed agreement??

 

I really don't get the 'logic' (and I use that term very loosely) he's used there - as far as I can see he's effectively saying if they don't have it that's fine??

 

Anyone else fancy trotting up to his house with no agreement and telling him we're sure he actually did sign a credit agreement even though we can't prove it, so he'd better pay up forthwith? According to the above quote he couldn't really deny it could he?

 

Lexus, Related to the above point, if a DCA 60 days after a CCA £1 request states that the original lender closed the account in 1999 and no agreement is available, should that not be the end of the matter?

And from that, what value is there in the DCA saying the account has been put on hold, but asking to to call them to discuss 'a repayment proposal you can afford and maintain.' Another [problem]?

Many thanks, Raeline

[lexis200]

Hi Raeline:)

 

Are you saying you have a physical letter stating there is no agreement? If so hug that to you and never let it go:)

 

Yes to your last point, if there is no agreement then they are relying on you wanting to pay the debt back (which you may want to do, albeit on your terms?!), but there is nothing legally to insist you must. Without an agreement they can not enforce it. They will in all probability keep on asking for it, but that's about as far as they can go.

 

My personal feelings normally would be to SAR them and make absolutely sure they have nothing, but if the account was closed 11 years ago that's not going to happen. I think if they have put it in black and white that there is no agreement at all I'd be very tempted to write and tell them to foxtrot oscar due to the above. If they don't that's fine, just ignore them until it's statute barred (assuming of course that your credit rating is already trashed, or that you don't mind it being trashed).

 

One other point - if they really have not got anything with your signature on it then there is no way they should be reporting to CRA's. This won't stop them, but it may make it very slightly easier to remove details of this from your file, as I'd guess it's been blighted if you're with a DCA. Having read other threads it probably won't make a blind bit of difference and you'll still have to fight tooth and nail, but there's always the chance you'll complain and get the right person first time!

[gh2008]

Lexus, Related to the above point, if a DCA 60 days after a CCA £1 request states that the original lender closed the account in 1999 and no agreement is available, should that not be the end of the matter?

Further to Lexis' post which I fully agree with, if there have been no payments or acknowledgement by you of the debt for more 6yrs or more then it will have become statute barred http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/146530-have-you-received-threatening.html

 

I may, of course, have misunderstood and you may have been making repayments since then, in which case ignore me

[means2anend]

Exactly.

 

It is easy to say what it would have looked like.

 

But they sent me TWO copies.

 

And they were different from one another.

 

Which is precisely why it would have to be the original shown in court.

 

ERM..ERMM.

 

the only way to prove that, would be to have possession of the ORIGINAL that was not signed..er!ERM!

 

As to the 2 copies...put THEM to the test:Which of those is the 'HONEST AND ACCURATE COPY'...they have got two inconsistent copies...bang goes their CREDIBILITY,HONESTY and ACCURACY.

[Funkyalfa]

Dear sirs - I am in need of assistance please! Upon request of 'original' contract, Barclaycard just sent a photocopy of the T& C's ? It has now handed the debt to collectors. I have had the card since 1987. I also have a Virgin MBNA card that has the in-correct address on it - always has since 2005 and a mint card from 2006 - all in arrears. I would happily donate to the site as I'm told by 2 'write off' companys none of them are en-forceable- I would rather donate their fee to the site. Could anybody help me with procedure, letters etc please? I think that I need a buddy

[Funkyalfa]

Not very good at these sites I'm afraid. Gonna end up in a dreadfull pickle.

[gaz2006]

Dear sirs - I am in need of assistance please! Upon request of 'original' contract, Barclaycard just sent a photocopy of the T& C's ? It has now handed the debt to collectors. I have had the card since 1987. I also have a Virgin MBNA card that has the in-correct address on it - always has since 2005 and a mint card from 2006 - all in arrears. I would happily donate to the site as I'm told by 2 'write off' companys none of them are en-forceable- I would rather donate their fee to the site. Could anybody help me with procedure, letters etc please? I think that I need a buddy

 

YOU should ask ie S.A.R them for copy of original agreement but now they will probaby just make a copy up if they havent got the original but may not risk taking you to court if they havent got it . An address incorrect doesnt mean a anything why do you think they are unenforceable ? Unenforceable means they cant get the money if taken to court it still means the debt is there .

Regards G

[means2anend]

Not very good at these sites I'm afraid. Gonna end up in a dreadfull pickle.

 

Welcome to this thread FunkyAlfa.

 

Firstly your on the correct thread.Secondly I would suggest just for now to read some of the previous posts as you may find that others have given answers to your concerns.You will also pick up ideas.Try and read as many posts on this thread.I am sure that someone will also have read your current concerns and will get back to you...hold on in there

 

Your Barclaycard goes back along way.I am sure there have been a number of variations to the terms of the original agreement.The recent Judgement in the High Court in Carey and Others v HSBC and Others, on the issue of running account agreements (credit card) MUST provide a copy of the terms as they were originally in 'addition' to a copy of the variation of the terms as they are at present.

Much analysis was focused on 'addition' and simply means that a copy of the original and a separate copy of the original including the varied terms.If you did not receive them in this manner then this. can also put them into a default position and the agreement is unenforceable.This is a separate issue quite apart from whether the agreements themselves contain the PRESCRIBED TERMS which can also effect the enforceability.But this examination is the next step once you have received the agreements.If you don't even get to that stage then they are initially in default anyway.

 

Also assuming that no variations in terms took place, then every time they sent you a new card but under the same agreement then that card MUST be accompanied with a copy of the agreement before or at the time you receive that card BUT NOT AFTER.

 

The OFT have produced a Draft Consultation in response to the latest High Court Decisions.That was emailed to me yesterday and is a definitive guide in plain English.You will find it very helpful in relation to Debt Collection Agencies, Credit Reference Agencies and unacceptable behaviour by these institutions and Lenders And interpretation is given on s77/78/79 amongs others that deal with prescribed terms

 

I will put a link for you and others later.

 

HERE IS THE LINK:scroll down to consultation document and click the link.

 

http://oft.gov.uk/news/press/2010/05-10

 

Rgds

 

M2ae

Edited January 28, 2010 by means2anend

[Funkyalfa]

M2ae - Most informative, I will follow your advice and check out more threads and the link. Thank you

[Funkyalfa]

Is there a template letter for requesting 'a truecopy of the original agreement' on the site please? Can't seem to find one

[lexis200]

Here you go:)

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/581-cca-request-letter

[Funkyalfa]

Lexis thank you

[means2anend]

Hi Caggers

 

I thought I should cheer you all up and keep the morale going.My friend has just been to see me.He has brought in a letter he received from Lowells dated 21/01/10.I sectioned them with a s77 request last June '09 on his behalf.

 

Original Creditor: Compucredit(NATIONWIDE)

Original Balance: £4227.87

Balance Outstanding:£00.00

 

Dear Mr xxxx

 

We refer to a recent letter received on your behalf from xxxx xxxxxx.

 

The contents have been noted but we would advise you that due to the Provisions of The Data Protection Act 1984 we cannot release any details of this account to anyone other than you without written consent.

 

However we can confirm that we have now been advised that due to the nature of our client's archiving process they are unable to provide any information relating to this account.

 

Our files have now been closed and the account returned to them and no further action will be taken by us on this matter.

 

We trust that you will find this satisfactory and apologise for any convenience caused.

 

Yours Sincerely

xxxxxxxx xxxxxxx

Customer Services

 

 

They also got the Data Protection Act date wrong it ought to be 1998 not 1984...heeee..heeee

Can any caggers advise me on how to scan this document so that I can post it for all to see.MUCHOS APRECIOS

 

Keep fighting fellow Caggers..as PaulWlton says 2010 seems to be the year when the tide is gonna turn

 

Also I remember reading what Carl Wright and Andrew Settle of Cartal Client Lawyers(the largest CMC in the country on a BBC website) and who represented clients that day in Manchester said just after the Carey case.I couldn't understand why he said that the case would open the floodgates but he commented on the fact that the 'procedures and customs' that creditors installed would not be amenable to providing ''an honest and accurate copy''

I think they may have been alluding to the archiving process.

 

p.s I need to scan this recent letter on to this site pls advise.....

 

Rgds

 

M2ae:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Edited January 31, 2010 by means2anend

[means2anend]

Is there a site from where ican cscan those details removing personal details of course

Edited January 31, 2010 by means2anend

[gaz2006]

good news for a change well done

[Funkyalfa]

Brilliant news from Meanstoanend - congraulations! I have just discovered that I sent letters to all three of my 'cards' in Feb 09 requesting copy's of original contracts etc!! I recieved no reply from any of them apart from Barclaycard. I did not sent the letters recorded (!) but did attatch £10.00 chqs to all of them. I guess if they cashed the chqs (which I am certain they did, and can check) then they read the letters. My question is: Is this enough to prove default, or do I need to send fresh letters. I could scan in my original if this helps? Thank you for all of your help to-date - REALLY appreciated

[Funkyalfa]

Further.... Do I send the request letter to the card issuer, or the DCA please?

[lexis200]

Can any caggers advise me on how to scan this document so that I can post it for all to see.MUCHOS APRECIOS

 

M2ae:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

 

Hi:)

 

Either take a photo of the letter or scan it if you have a scanner, then upload picture/scan to photobucket.co.uk or .com, I forget which.

 

It's a free hosting site and it's really easy to use. Just upload docs and use their editing stuff to remove personal details. One thing to remember - once it's on there it is possible for people to view it, so when you edit it make sure you save it as the original rather than a copy. This way the only one online is the one with the blacked-out bits.

 

When you've sorted it out as you want it, just click on the link to the side/bottom of the picture (there'll be 4 there, I think it's the top one you want), and paste it into a post.

 

Either that or you can save it to your PC and use the 'insert image' link at the top of posts so that the whole picture shows rather than a link.

[lexis200]

Brilliant news from Meanstoanend - congraulations! I have just discovered that I sent letters to all three of my 'cards' in Feb 09 requesting copy's of original contracts etc!! I recieved no reply from any of them apart from Barclaycard. I did not sent the letters recorded (!) but did attatch £10.00 chqs to all of them. I guess if they cashed the chqs (which I am certain they did, and can check) then they read the letters. My question is: Is this enough to prove default, or do I need to send fresh letters. I could scan in my original if this helps? Thank you for all of your help to-date - REALLY appreciated

 

Do you mean SAR's? I'm assuming so if it was a tenner.

 

If so I would be inclined to jot a quick letter to them simply saying that you requested the info on x date and to date have had nothing back. I had very similar with Goldfish - sent the SAR then completely forgot about it! If this is any help feel free to use it.

SUBJECT ACCESS REQUEST NON-COMPLIANCE

DO NOT IGNORE

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re − Account number –

 

On the 23rd January I sent you a Subject Access Request. This was sent by Special Delivery and received by you on the 26th January. Your 40 day time limit gave you until the 7th March to comply.

 

My letter included a £10 postal order, so all fees were covered.

 

I have recently realised I have not received any information whatsoever in relation to my request, which is now many months overdue. As you have taken so long to reply I will of course expect my information to go back a minimum of 6 years from when you received the initial legal request, and up to and including the day you receive this complaint.

 

I am giving you an extra 7 days to fully comply with my request, or I will be reporting you to the Information Commissioner's Office. As you have had over 5 months to collate the information requested within the original request I feel this is more than fair.

 

I have enclosed a copy of my original request and I expect every item to be addressed within the extra time I have allowed.

 

I look forward to your prompt response, which will in any event be no later than 7 days after receipt of this Recorded delivery letter.

 

Yours faithfully

 

If you do this though do make sure you complain to the ICO if they don't respond in whatever timescale you give them. I forgot (bad year last year!) and so realised again last week that I'd still not had anything - even an acknowledgement letter. Off the back of that I've fired off a complaint to the ICO now so hopefully that'll get me somewhere.

 

I've used very similar letters for others who've not complied in time (albeit less time than a year) and they've worked so it's worth doing I think.

 

Don't send them any more money. You're not asking for a new set of info, merely the stuff you've already paid for.

[means2anend]

Hi:)

 

Either take a photo of the letter or scan it if you have a scanner, then upload picture/scan to photobucket.co.uk or .com, I forget which.

 

It's a free hosting site and it's really easy to use. Just upload docs and use their editing stuff to remove personal details. One thing to remember - once it's on there it is possible for people to view it, so when you edit it make sure you save it as the original rather than a copy. This way the only one online is the one with the blacked-out bits.

 

When you've sorted it out as you want it, just click on the link to the side/bottom of the picture (there'll be 4 there, I think it's the top one you want), and paste it into a post.

 

Either that or you can save it to your PC and use the 'insert image' link at the top of posts so that the whole picture shows rather than a link.

 

 

 

Thanking You Lexis

 

I appreciate your help...the letter shall be up by this evening...i'll have to use just the black ink because me epson ink colours are on the minimum and if any one of them goes below that minima then I will not even be able to use the black ink.

 

I gonna go for a shave and shower down the gym.... I look abit like R.Crusoe

 

 

Kind Rgds

 

M2ae:p