CCA Agreements (Mark II) PLUS any other topic

[yaffsimone1]

Thats evidence in itself that they are all a bunch of liars!

[M.Willows]

[davefirewalker]

old

 

but still funny

 

[InKogneeToh]

Ive got another question about a CCA request.

 

I CCA'd Marshall Ward on 27 March on the 8 May they will have commited the criminal offence. They had instructed Nationwide Debt Recovery (a dormant company) to chase me, i sent them NWD a letter stating MW still have to comply with my request. I have not heard from them since. I also wrote to thier head office. MW have now instructed GCC Debt Recovery who are also a dormant company. Should i CCA these people because in a weeks time MW will have committed the offence anyway? and if i CCA GGC will the time will start over again? Can a dormant company request money for alleged debts anyway?

 

Hi

 

Only the creditor is obliged to comply with a CCA request. If the DCA is only acting as agent for MW then it is MW that has to comply.

 

Catalogue accounts that are the 20 week/40 week interest free variety do not actually need credit agreements. It is the 50/100/150 week accounts with interest applied that must be set down in a CCA but many catalogue companies (for reasons known only to themselves ) do not actually issue agreements for these accounts, or in some cases they send them out but don't insist on you signing and returning them! I have experienced both scenarios in the past.

 

Maybe yours will be one of these! In any case, don't remind them of their obligations - until (if) they comply, they cannot enforce the debt. It is not our place to help them to understand their many obligations under the CCA.

 

Regards, Pam

[ian1969uk]

Hi

 

Only the creditor is obliged to comply with a CCA request. If the DCA is only acting as agent for MW then it is MW that has to comply.

 

Catalogue accounts that are the 20 week/40 week interest free variety do not actually need credit agreements. It is the 50/100/150 week accounts with interest applied that must be set down in a CCA but many catalogue companies (for reasons known only to themselves ) do not actually issue agreements for these accounts, or in some cases they send them out but don't insist on you signing and returning them! I have experienced both scenarios in the past.

 

Maybe yours will be one of these! In any case, don't remind them of their obligations - until (if) they comply, they cannot enforce the debt. It is not our place to help them to understand their many obligations under the CCA.

 

Regards, Pam

 

Littlewoods are an interest free catalogue and they have just said they aren't pursuing our account due to lack of a credit agreement.

 

Where does it say that the interest free ones don't need an agreement?

[zubo]

Guys

 

I need your help....

 

my son's deep in the brown stuff and I need your careful scan of his lease agreement to ensure all the prescribed terms are there...

 

find me something to query... please

 

http://www.knowledgecommunity.co.uk/cag/bmwlease1.jpg

 

http://www.knowledgecommunity.co.uk/cag/bmwlease2.jpg

 

thanks

 

Z

 

thanks Dave,

 

Pam/BA/Pers/Peter

 

Comments please...

 

... background to this is that he was an IT salesman, had a fit (not whilst driving) but we were worried as to what it was, so went to hospital. They diagnosed revealed nothing but had to report him to DVLC and his license was suspended for 12 months. He lost his job and has been out of work for over 15 months. His wife works and supports him and the two kids, he has been to umpteen interviews in last 3 months since recovering his license, but finances have been hit and he has grabbed credit wherever he can get it to survive. Classic way of tightening your own noose.

 

They both want to do the 'right' thing so have tried to continue to pay a debt mountain - dont ask me how. They want to retain their (probably not great) credit rating. He is a proud man and only recently asked me for help. I have suggested writing and asking for 'holidays' from repayments so he can be more focused on getting a job. Some have agreed, most have declined.

 

I have advised him that his options are either a dmp with CSSS or to follow my route. Truth is I would prefer he went down the dmp route, since our route is still very experimental. For both routes their credit rating will be hit.

 

The car lease declined the holiday request. So, this leaves this agreement which I was hoping they would not be able to produce. If it is solid without holes then I am advising him to return the car - there is a termination statement (strange it says non-cancellable) but he would not have paid the 50% amount even though he has paid everything up until now with 8 months of the agreement left to completion (8x500=£4,000), and let them chase him for the difference. I am hoping we can find some holes in it to make it unexecuted.... but think it is wishful thinking

 

Anyone with better advice?

 

Thanks

 

Z

[InKogneeToh]

thanks Dave,

 

Pam/BA/Pers/Peter

 

Comments please...

 

... background to this is that he was an IT salesman, had a fit (not whilst driving) but we were worried as to what it was, so went to hospital. They diagnosed revealed nothing but had to report him to DVLC and his license was suspended for 12 months. He lost his job and has been out of work for over 15 months. His wife works and supports him and the two kids, he has been to umpteen interviews in last 3 months since recovering his license, but finances have been hit and he has grabbed credit wherever he can get it to survive. Classic way of tightening your own noose.

 

They both want to do the 'right' thing so have tried to continue to pay a debt mountain - dont ask me how. They want to retain their (probably not great) credit rating. He is a proud man and only recently asked me for help. I have suggested writing and asking for 'holidays' from repayments so he can be more focused on getting a job. Some have agreed, most have declined.

 

I have advised him that his options are either a dmp with CSSS or to follow my route. Truth is I would prefer he went down the dmp route, since our route is still very experimental. For both routes their credit rating will be hit.

 

The car lease declined the holiday request. So, this leaves this agreement which I was hoping they would not be able to produce. If it is solid without holes then I am advising him to return the car - there is a termination statement (strange it says non-cancellable) but he would not have paid the 50% amount even though he has paid everything up until now with 8 months of the agreement left to completion (8x500=£4,000), and let them chase him for the difference. I am hoping we can find some holes in it to make it unexecuted.... but think it is wishful thinking

 

Anyone with better advice?

 

Thanks

 

Z

 

Hi Zubo

 

The documents are very difficult to read and if you can't read all of the text either then you can demand that they send an 'easily legible' copy (as required under the regs).

 

Unfortunately all of the prescribed terms appear to be present so IMO it's unlikely to be fatally flawed. If any other required information is missing it might be 'improperly executed' and thus enforceable on an order of the court only.

 

You should check the maths and also check that all of the required statutory statements are present, but I can't read it clearly enough to see if they are or not.

 

Regards, Pam

[InKogneeToh]

Littlewoods are an interest free catalogue and they have just said they aren't pursuing our account due to lack of a credit agreement.

 

Where does it say that the interest free ones don't need an agreement?

 

Hi

 

I may be mistaken about 'interest free' accounts. :o It's just that I have never received an agreement for a 20/40 week account but I have sometimes received one for a 100+ week account.

 

I have also had accounts with small stores, e.g. a school uniform supplier when my children were younger, and never had agreements with those either.

 

This needs to be checked further but unfortunately I don't have time myself this weekend as it's a busy one!

 

Anyone else know the answer?

 

Regards, Pam

[surprise]

found this

 

WRITTEN AGREEMENTS

 

Catalogue debts are usually regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974, unless the agreement requires less than 5 payments in 12 months, or where the credit you have been given has never been more than £50. The Consumer Credit Act 1974 requires a written credit agreement which must be signed by both the borrower and the lender.

INFORMATION

Although catalogue companies should give you a credit agreement under the terms of the Act this does not always happen. In this case, or if the agreement has not been signed by both parties, it is not enforceable in the county court.

 

[SteveH2508]

Section 16(5) of the Act allows orders to be made re exempt agreements. (I do not have a copy of the relevant SI) I recall something about low-rate agreements (which would include interest-free catalogue accounts I guess) and number of payments not exceeding four.

 

Section 17 exempts small agreements (under £50). This was to exempt things like the monthly milk bill or newspaper deliveries.

 

HTH.

[tomterm8]

I am no longer welcome on CAG

[davefirewalker]

Hi

 

I may be mistaken about 'interest free' accounts. It's just that I have never received an agreement for a 20/40 week account but I have sometimes received one for a 100+ week account.

 

I have also had accounts with small stores, e.g. a school uniform supplier when my children were younger, and never had agreements with those either.

 

This needs to be checked further but unfortunately I don't have time myself this weekend as it's a busy one!

 

Anyone else know the answer?

 

Regards, Pam

 

 

Also this on the cca1974

 

8 Consumer credit agreements

 

(1) A personal credit agreement is an agreement between an individual (“the debtor”) and any other person (“the creditor”) by which the creditor provides the debtor with credit of any amount.

 

9 Meaning of credit

 

(1) In this Act “credit” includes a cash loan, and any other form of financial accommodation.

 

10 Running-account credit and fixed-sum credit

 

(1) For the purposes of this Act—

 

(a) running-account credit is a facility under a personal credit agreement whereby the debtor is enabled to receive from time to time (whether in his own person, or by another person) from the creditor or a third party cash, goods and services (or any of them) to an amount or value such that, taking into account payments made by or to the credit of the debtor, the credit limit (if any) is not at any time exceeded;

 

I'm sure that restricted use credit (where any loan can only be used to purchase specific goods) also applies

 

so in that case YES they would come under the cca1974

 

Dave

[zubo]

Hi Zubo

 

The documents are very difficult to read and if you can't read all of the text either then you can demand that they send an 'easily legible' copy (as required under the regs).

 

Unfortunately all of the prescribed terms appear to be present so IMO it's unlikely to be fatally flawed. If any other required information is missing it might be 'improperly executed' and thus enforceable on an order of the court only.

 

You should check the maths and also check that all of the required statutory statements are present, but I can't read it clearly enough to see if they are or not.

 

Regards, Pam

 

Pam/Peter

 

Look at these sums:

 

(a) Cash price (inc vat) £26,829.65

(b) Less initial rental/deposit £4,300

© Balance of cash price/amount of credit £22,529.65

(d) Add Charges £4,588.44

(e) Administration fee payable with first Monthly Rental £95.00

(f) Purchase fee payable with Final Rental (inc vat) £25.00

(g) Total charge for credit (d)+(e)+(f) £4,708.44

(h) Balance of Amount Payable © + (g) £27,238.09

(i) Total Amount Payable (b)+(h) £31,538.09

APR 9.6%

 

The balance shown at (h) above is payable by:

 

35 Monthly Rentals beginning 1 month after the start date of this agreement £454.62

 

followed by a final payment of £11,206.39 and the Purchase Fee of £25 payable 1 month later: Total £11,231.39

 

Now do the last 2 calculations - 35x £454.62=£15,911.70 add £11,231.39=£27,143.09 not £27,238.98 ie £95.89 difference.

 

How significant is the error do we think? Does it become unexecuted because it is incorrect?

 

Will it buy him time to get a job?

 

Thanks

 

Z

[InKogneeToh]

Pam/Peter

 

Look at these sums:

 

(a) Cash price (inc vat) £26,829.65

(b) Less initial rental/deposit £4,300

© Balance of cash price/amount of credit £22,529.65

(d) Add Charges £4,588.44

(e) Administration fee payable with first Monthly Rental £95.00

(f) Purchase fee payable with Final Rental (inc vat) £25.00

(g) Total charge for credit (d)+(e)+(f) £4,708.44

(h) Balance of Amount Payable © + (g) £27,238.09

(i) Total Amount Payable (b)+(h) £31,538.09

APR 9.6%

 

The balance shown at (h) above is payable by:

 

35 Monthly Rentals beginning 1 month after the start date of this agreement £454.62

 

followed by a final payment of £11,206.39 and the Purchase Fee of £25 payable 1 month later: Total £11,231.39

 

Now do the last 2 calculations - 35x £454.62=£15,911.70 add £11,231.39=£27,143.09 not £27,238.98 ie £95.89 difference.

 

How significant is the error do we think? Does it become unexecuted because it is incorrect?

 

Will it buy him time to get a job?

 

Thanks

 

Z

 

Hi

 

The Total Amount Payable (TAP) is not a 'prescribed term', but it is a required term. If the TAP is incorrectly shown (where the total is b + h ('h' being incorrectly calculated) then this would make the agreement 'improperly executed' NOT unexecuted.

 

Improperly executed agreements are enforceable on an order of the court only. If the court allows enforcement, it has discretion to make any changes it sees fit, in order to compensate the borrower for any prejudice caused.

 

So, if YOUR calculations are correct then the creditor cannot enforce the agreement without first applying to the court for permission. This means that no further payments need be made until this happens.

 

Regards, Pam

[davefirewalker]

not sure if i missed something...

 

theres a £95 admin fee to be paid with the first payment

 

had you already taken that into account?

 

Dave

[zubo]

Ooops, you're right. Didn't see page 2 ... doh... and it seems to have all the proper termination clauses. It seems to have all proscribed terms (although I didn't notice a FSA credit license no... do you need to have one)

 

Doh!

 

However, if you check the FSA website, FSA Register you will find that their registration appears to be effecitive AFTER THE DATE OF THE AGREEMENT

 

I am unsure what "Unable to hold client money" means. Anyone have any ideas?

 

312578 - BMW Financial Services(GB) Limited

Authorised*Effective Date:14/01/2005 *Address:Europa House

5 Bartley Wood Business Park

Bartley Way

Hook

Hampshire

RG27 9UF

Phone:

Fax:

Email:

Website:

44 01256 747 000

44 01256 749 569

[email protected]

BMW Financial Services

Notices:Unable to hold client money.

 

I have no idea if this helps or not...

 

Poor slobs, and they had a decent soliciter and all:)

 

Tom

 

That is excellent - well spotted.

 

I do believe that they have committed an offence - writing CCA financial business without a licence is a serious offence.

 

Also, surely this agreement is not worth the paper its written on.

I'm going to go through the Act to see about licenses.

 

Z

[Peterbard]

Hi

 

I may be mistaken about 'interest free' accounts. :o It's just that I have never received an agreement for a 20/40 week account but I have sometimes received one for a 100+ week account.

 

I have also had accounts with small stores, e.g. a school uniform supplier when my children were younger, and never had agreements with those either.

 

This needs to be checked further but unfortunately I don't have time myself this weekend as it's a busy one!

 

Anyone else know the answer?

 

Hi Pam

Found this

 

OTHER EXEMPTIONS

Regulated credit agreements for which there is no charge for credit and which satisfy the

conditions set out in the section on ‘exemption from the requirement to send a separate

notice of cancellation rights’ in the booklet Cancellable agreements (specialised types of

business such as catalogue mail order) are exempt from the requirements relating to the

disclosure of the APR and the inclusion of prescribed signature boxes and statements of

protection and remedies.

 

Pretty much everything you would expect in a normal agreement under the cca.

 

Peter

[ian1969uk]

The problem for the catalogues is they have no signed agreement at all, without even worrying about which terms should be in it.

[joneshousehold]

Thanks for the click Els. Glad you like the pink tutu, I had it made specially!

[SteveH2508]

Hello all,

It is rather quiet on the Citicard board so I was wondering some of the CCA mega-brains here would like to nip over there and give their opinions on http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-779233.html ?

 

I have some ideas but other input would be gratefully received.

 

(sorry for cross-posting but this could be of interest!)

[davefirewalker]

apologies to any who has seen this on the "other" thread..I just need to get some opinions.

 

have a look at

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-780736.html

 

Any ideas / comments

 

Also

 

They need the original doc to proceed to court. my agreement looks like a microfiche copy......I DIDN'T sign a microfiche, I wonder if the have the original at all? or if they've archived everthing to save space.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-757767.html

 

is a photocopy of an agreement good enough, photocopys can be doctored. in fact when you are applying for certain things you have to send original docs....photocopies wont do !!

 

or is my thinking gone awry again

 

 

Dave

[Jaranius]

xx

[Jaranius]

duplicate post, sorry

[zubo]

Granted, however, "repayments = number and amounts" are and if they are incorrect then the agreement is improperly executed and unenforceable in court as it is a prescribed term.

 

Are the repayments correct?

Jay-R

 

Jay-R

 

I am assuming that you mean the repayments should repay the debt

 

The (number x amount) + final payments are almost £100 short of the debt.

Therefore they are incorrect.

However I would like to understand why this is unenforceable at court - why cannot the court order a change to the final payment? (playing devil's advocate)

 

Z

[Peterbard]

HI Z

 

Repayments are a prescribed term

 

Cheers Peter