Jysmystry V Westcot and RBS

[jysmystry]

Hi all,

 

Wondering if you can offer my your advice, i think im being ripped off.

 

2 years ago i had a credit card with Natwest. I got a new job and moved out of the area. Before i moved however i paid off the full balance of the credit card and wrote to Natwest advising them of my new address. I have a copy of the bank statement showing the payment and a copy of the letter to Natwest advising them of my new address.

 

I have now received a letter from Westcots (a DCA) demanding immediate payment of £1668.08p or a face baillifs or court action.

 

I believe that when i paid the credit card balance off a small amount of interest was passed accross for which i was rightfully liable. However, it seems they did not register my letter chaning my address and have been applying charges to my account in the maentime to the extent that they now seek to recover the balance through westcots.

 

I intend to write to westcots using your excellent template letter seeking clarification of the debt and a copy of the agreement and although i have no doubt they will be able to supply this i am only looking to delay the issue whilst i consider my best course of action.

 

I wonder however if it is possible for them to seek to recover debt that is accrued through charges placed on the account?

 

What would my best course of action be? To contact the creditor and request they waive the charges?

 

Should i advise Westcots that the debt is disputed?

 

Any advice would be very gratefully received!

[pmhcfc]

Hi all,

 

Wondering if you can offer my your advice, i think im being ripped off.

 

2 years ago i had a credit card with Natwest. I got a new job and moved out of the area. Before i moved however i paid off the full balance of the credit card and wrote to Natwest advising them of my new address. I have a copy of the bank statement showing the payment and a copy of the letter to Natwest advising them of my new address.

 

I have now received a letter from Westcots (a DCA) demanding immediate payment of £1668.08p or a face baillifs or court action.

 

I believe that when i paid the credit card balance off a small amount of interest was passed accross for which i was rightfully liable. However, it seems they did not register my letter chaning my address and have been applying charges to my account in the maentime to the extent that they now seek to recover the balance through westcots.

 

I intend to write to westcots using your excellent template letter seeking clarification of the debt and a copy of the agreement and although i have no doubt they will be able to supply this i am only looking to delay the issue whilst i consider my best course of action.

 

I wonder however if it is possible for them to seek to recover debt that is accrued through charges placed on the account?

 

What would my best course of action be? To contact the creditor and request they waive the charges?

 

Should i advise Westcots that the debt is disputed?

 

Any advice would be very gratefully received!

 

You're probably best sending a SAR (library Templates) to Barclays...I know it costs £10.00 (if they bother cashng it) but at least it'll show you all the activity on the account...Also send that CCA to Westcots- it'll shut them up...advice them inthe letter that the account is in dispute also..

[allykat]

It must be a Natwest thing...they are bloody stupid

 

When you paid the balance....did that include any charges? If so you should send a SAR to Natwest and claim the charges back using the template on here, sending the £10 fee (recorded delivery)

 

Did you send the change of address letter to Natwest by recorded delivery?

 

They did this with me (well very similar)....very annoying

[jysmystry]

hi

 

unfortunatly i didnt send the change of address by recorded delivery.

 

Based on your advice i'll send the CCA to Westcots and at the same time send the SAR to natwest.

 

Maybe i'll get them to quash the charges and then be able to claim the charges on the account back

[allykat]

hi

 

unfortunatly i didnt send the change of address by recorded delivery.

 

Based on your advice i'll send the CCA to Westcots and at the same time send the SAR to natwest.

 

Maybe i'll get them to quash the charges and then be able to claim the charges on the account back

 

keep us posted on what happens, it will be interesting to see what replies you get!

 

I'm going through this myself at the moment, with Natwest and the muppets they have harrassing me

 

Best of luck to you

[jysmystry]

oh i meant to ask, does anyone know if i am right in thinking that a debt collection agent is unable to collect penalty charges on an account?

[noomill060]

Unlawful penalty charges are unenforceable.

 

If the total figure that Wescot claim you owe contains unlawful charges, I believe that gives you an absolute defence should legal action be started against you, but I will stand corrected if Im wrong.

 

Unlawful charges are unenforceable. End of.

[jysmystry]

ahh thats great news. I have sent off the SAR to natwest and the CCA to westcots and we shall see what happens. I have no doubt thought that the alleged debt is 99% bank charges which puts me in good stead.

 

I find it quite amusing that at the end of this they shall be the ones owning me money

 

Maybe if they dont pay up i could hire wescots to collect it for me

[Zimmie]

I just had to comment...nothing useful though! That last comment had me crying with laughter

[jysmystry]

well westcots have now replied

 

The letter basically says...

 

"thanks for the letter, we have written to our client request the info you asked for, here is the £1 postal order back. We note you state the account is in dispute, please give us details of the dispute so we may advise our clients."

 

Im not going to give them any info however until i have the credit agreement. Im hoping i'll have the results of the SAR from Natwest before i have to do anything with Westcots again and im assuming that until i get the paperwork i asked for the 12 day and 1 month rules still apply, i.e. they can write telling me they are taking whatever measures they like to get the credit agreement but if i dont get in in 12 days its an alleged debt and 1 month following is still an offense?

[jysmystry]

oh check this out, this is really petty.

 

When i sent my CCA request i sent the £1 postal order as you do. Anyway as per the above post they returned it to me but i just noticed they have written their details on the PO and crossed it so that i cant re-cash it hehe.

 

Not that i was going to as it is being filed with the PO still attached but is that not just sooooo low of them!!!

[jysmystry]

ooh we now have a response from Wescotts.

 

The 12 day and 1 calendar month end a week today and i had the attached waiting for me when i got home as well as the statements from my sar to natwest (but i'll start a new thread for that on in the natwest forum). Do i actually need to send any of this info or is it just a big timewasting ploy?

 

Im guessing this is a time wasting ploy but should i write and advise them of that and that the clock is still ticking or just ignore them until i can report them to the CAB? I don't want to be unreasonable but i don't want them to pull the wool over my eyes

 

This is starting to get exciting

11.05.2007 - Further info request - EDITED FOR WEB.pdf

[jysmystry]

Sorry about the bump. Has anyone ever come accross such a request before? I have no idea if i should be responding to this or not. Its a bit worrying.

[jysmystry]

Well there is a bit more of an update now, it just makes things more confusing though hehe.

 

I have started a thread in relation to claiming back the back charges but i'll post the info here in case anyone in the future might have the same problem and can see what i did and how it worked out.

 

A brief summary of my case:-

• Moved house in 2006 having cleared the balance on a credit card and advising them of my change of address
  
• 2007 receive a notice of debt collection from Wescotts acting on behalf of NatWest/RBS threatening to take me to court blah blah as they do.
  
• Sent a CCA to Wescotts (who have committed an Offense tomorrow - WooHoo) and sent a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) to NatWest.
  
• This thread is the story of that S.A.R - (Subject Access Request)

I received copy statements well in advance of the 40 day limit which was nice. The statements clearly show the account balance was cleared the day before I moved house and I went on my merry way.

 

However *queue dark clouds and rolling thunder* a third party company (Enterprise Rent a car) then charged my account £559.96 on three separate occasions over a month, only one of which was refunded instantly placing the account I thought was clear in £1119.92 debt. I can most defiantly confirm that I have no knowledge of these transactions whatsoever. Over the past 18 months NatWest have of course been applying over limit fees and late payment fees totaling £266 and slapping payment protection and interest on this each month.

 

My goal is to remedy this situation

 

Oh it might be worth also pointing out that prior to the account being cleared when I moved I had paid £271 in unlawful charges which I am looking to claim back whilst resolving this.

 

I have spoken to Enterprise RAC on the phone and they were very helpful, they asked me to send them the info and they would have their accountants investigate it. I have attached the letter I sent to them today below.

 

In the meantime the DCA (Wescotts) have written to me (see above) asking for further details of my address and requesting proof of identify by passport or birth certificate. They say if I don’t they can’t be expected to comply with my CCA request as they need to confirm who I am, this stings a bit as they were happy enough to threaten to take me to court!!

 

I guess i'll keep reading about what to do about this and decide what to do. Wescotts commit an offence tomorrow so if anyone has any advice on my next steps nows a good time for it hehe

21.05.2007 - RAC - edited for web.pdf

[rory32]

"In the meantime the DCA (Wescotts) have written to me (see above) asking for further details of my address and requesting proof of identify by passport or birth certificate."

 

A utility bill will suffice - you really don't want to start sending them things that are important (as they'll probably manage to lose them).

[jysmystry]

so this would be a legitimate reason for them to avoid having committed the offense?

 

I find that frustrating. They seemed confident enough to send personal details of my debts to this address and they felt confident enough of my identity to threaten me with court action yet 7 days before the 1 month ends they suddenly become unsure and request some kind of extension cos they cant be sure of who i am??

 

That surely cant be right of them

 

So you reckon i should provide them with the info they request. If i do what sort of time period do they have before they have committed an offence now?

[allykat]

I don't know about their request being legitimate....they are clearly using the "we need ID" thing to buy more time....if you are going to send them something, I would still use the original time frame which they had to comply in...they should have asked for proof of ID earlier so it's their fault entirely

 

As you say they are happy enough as to your identity the rest of the time, this is a delay tactic which they use, I've read it in other threads

[Zimmie]

So they were happy enough to harrass and intimidate you in the hope that you would give them some money without any proof of your identity. They were obviously confident enough about your identity when they sent letters to you at your address...so why not send them a copy of their letters as proof of your identity:rolleyes:

If they won't accept these it will just highlight that they don't have a clue, or even give a damn about who they send their demands to!

 

I do agree though that it seems like a delay tactic, but one that could possibly have sinister conotations if personal legal documents got into the wrong hands

[jysmystry]

Ok, by way of an update i have been reading these forums till my eyes blurred and am now (i think) clear on where i'm going with this. I'm planning on sending this letter, any comments on this? I think its quite amusing to send their own threats back to them as proof of my id hehe

 

And by the way, most of this letter is cribbed from diskmandave's hilarious dealings with other misery monkeys and who gave constant moral boosts

 

 

I write in response to your unsigned and undated letter which I received 21st May 2007.

 

In that letter you request: -

• Proof of when my previous address was vacated;
  
• A copy of my signature; and
  
• Confirmation of my previous address

You kindly inform that that you require this information so as to be satisfied of my identity and to prevent you inadvertently sending confidential account information to the incorrect recipient thus prejudicing your obligations towards the Data Protection Act.

 

I would be happy to provide such information and as such please find enclosed a copy of a “Notice of Debt Collection” from Wescott Credit Services Ltd. As you shall no doubt note that letter includes confidential financial information and most notably a threat of legal action against me. I would presume that the writer must have been sufficiently confident of my identity in relation to the Data Protection Act in order to have sent that letter and so I equally presume that my returning it should be enough to satisfy you as regards my identity.

 

You will have on file that 31st March 2007 you wrote to me attempting to collect £1,668.08 which you alleged I am indebted to you or your clients and that my response to this was a request to see a copy of the original agreement under the Consumer Credit Act.

 

Your records should also show that you have so far been unable to fulfill this

properly made request which was accompanied with the maximum prescribed fee for such a request. Irrelevant of the fact that you chose to return that payment I have an acknowledgement letter of your receipt of this request which was sent by recorded delivery and deemed served on 5th April 2007. As such I have no difficulty in accepting that from that point you became legally obliged to the timescales and provisions that are set out in the Act. In respect of that fact I would ask you to note the following extracts from the Act: -

 

The Consumer Credit Act 1974:

S.77(4) If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection(1)

 

(a) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement; and

(b) if the default continues for one month he commits an offence.

 

I advise you that on 24th April 2007 you committed the offence laid down in Section 77(4)(b), and that as per Section 77(4)(a), you are not legally entitled to enforce the agreement. It is also my belief that your continued pursuance of this matter also constitutes an offence under Section 40 of the Administration of Justice Act 1970.

 

It has also come to my attention that as you are unable to supply any documentation

that you will also be in breach of the Data Protection Act should you have, continue or attempt to process any data in relation to me and I shall be consulting with the credit reference agencies in respect of this.

I now have the option of reporting you to the Office of Fair Trading and Trading Standards in relation to these matters and of writing to your client and advising them of your activity for which they may also be responsible. Before doing so however I offer you the opportunity to accept the fact that this account is most defiantly in dispute. As you have failed to provide any agreement despite my properly formatted request I am unable to acknowledge any debt to yourselves and as such I am not obliged to provide you with any details of this matter and I do not request you grant any kind of extension of time nor place this account on hold. I simply offer you the opportunity to confirm your withdrawal from this matter and return the account to your client with whom I shall correspond direct.

 

Should you continue attempting to collect on this account I shall consider it harassment and will proceed to remedy that without further notice.

 

Please note that if I receive any further correspondence from yourselves other than confirmation of your abandonment of this account I shall simply file it and start making complaints with relevance to licence fitness.

 

[jysmystry]

Ok, another update. I decided not to send the letter above and ignore their first unsigned undated request. I now got another letter, this time from a named individual which says: -

 

"We are in receipt of a copy agreement. to ensure Wescot Credit Services Ltd do not breach the data protection Act by sending this information to someone other than the account holder.

 

Please forward confirmation of your date of birth and any previous addresses at which you have resided together with the date of vacation"

 

I have therefore composed the following response and any comments would be useful

 

Thank you for your letter dated 7th June 2007 and which I received 9th June 2007.

I note you seek confirmation of my identity so as to prevent you breaching the obligations placed upon you by the Data Protection Act. Specifically you request confirmation of my date of birth and details of my previous addresses with date of vacation.

It is most reassuring to know you display such concern in adhering to the Data Protection Act. With your obvious familiarity with the 1998 Act you will no doubt be aware that it would have been most improper of Wescot Credit Services Ltd to release confidential personal information to an individual without having first been confident of the identity of that individual and having been assured of their right to access that data.

This being the case I admit to being most surprised at your latest letter requesting confirmation of my identity as it suggests you are not in fact satisfied as to my identity. I can only assume you request this further information due to some considerable oversight on your part or that this letter was in fact an automated response designed as some kind of delaying tactic. I would assume the former as I would not like to think Wescot would send out standard letters with such an appalling display of English grammar.

None the less you request the information and whilst I take issue with your reasoning, have concern with your interpretation of the 1998 Act and question the reasonableness of your request I do intend to provide you with a suitable response so as to enable you to provide the information I request.

As such please note the attached which I believe should satisfy your query. You will note it is a “Notice of Debt Collect” from Wescot Credit Services Ltd. Please note that in that letter Wescot clearly state: -

• My name and address;
  
• My credit card number;
  
• My alleged credit card balance;
  
• Threatens the commencement of legal action against me; and
  
• Threatens the instruction of a Bailiff to collect the alleged debt

As previously stated in light of this I am most surprised that you now query my identity as presumably you were suitably satisfied before you sent the attached. Obviously if that were not the case please be so kind as to confirm that to me in writing. I appreciate that this does not provide the specific information you request but I assure you this is more than sufficient for the purposes you require. If you are in any doubt about this point I’d refer you to Section 7 (3) Data Protection Act 1998 which states “A data controller is not obliged to comply with a request under this section unless he is supplied with such information as he may reasonably require in order to satisfy himself as to the identity of the person making the request and to locate the information which that person seeks.”

I would maintain that in light of your previous letter (attached) your further request for confirmation of my identity is not a reasonable one as you are clearly already satisfied as to my identity and my not providing that specific information does not exempt you from the obligation you are under in providing the information resulting from my properly formatted request. As such I look forward to receiving the documents for my perusal by return.

You will have on file that on 31st March 2007 you wrote to me attempting to collect £1,668.08 which you alleged I am indebted to you or your clients and that my response to this was a request to see a copy of the original agreement under the Consumer Credit Act.

Your records should also show that you have so far been unable to fulfil this

properly made request which was accompanied with the maximum prescribed fee for such a request. Irrelevant of the fact that you chose to return that payment I have an acknowledgement letter of your receipt of this request which was sent by recorded delivery and deemed served on 5th April 2007. As such I have no difficulty in accepting that from that point you became legally obliged to the timescales and provisions that are set out in the Act. In respect of that fact I would ask you to note the following extracts from the Act: -

The Consumer Credit Act 1974:

S.77(4) If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection(1)

(a) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement;

and (b) if the default continues for one month he commits an offence.

 

I advise you that on 24th April 2007 you committed the offence laid down in

Section 77(4)(b). I now have the option of reporting you to the Office of Fair Trading and Trading Standards in relation to these matters and of writing to your client and advising them of your activity for which they may also be responsible. However I do not intend to follow this course of action as I believe your continued involvement in this matter is not necessary. The account is in dispute and I am in correspondence with your client and a third party in relation to this. As you have not provided any Credit Agreement you may have no involvement in this matter although I advise I consider the nature of the dispute to offer me an absolute defence should you attempt to take action against me along the lines you originally suggest. Obviously it would be desirable for you to return this account to your clients as I intend to resist most strongly any attempt by yourself to collect on it but I appreciate you are unlikely to take note of my comments. As such, whilst I acknowledge you state you already hold a copy of the original Credit Agreement, I must put you on notice that should you continue attempting to collect on this account without having first provided the requested documents I shall consider it harassment and will proceed to remedy that without further notice.

Please also note that If I receive any further correspondence from yourselves other than provision of the requested agreement I shall simply file it and start making complaints with relevance to licence fitness.

 

Finally I would ask you to continue to note that this account is in dispute.

[clutchingatstraws]

Subsc

[jysmystry]

bump

 

Any comments? If not going to send friday luch

[rory32]

Letters fine.....just send it.

[Zimmie]

Nice one jysmystry, I like it Can't wait to hear what their response is.

[jysmystry]

Well!! We have had a most unusual response to my last letter, a response which I must say has left me rather confused

 

Im not quite sure what to make of it but im taking it as a "we don't like you, you don't play nice and pay up when we threaten you" type letter. If/when you read it please note that their last letter to me said "We have your credit agreement here, please prove who you are and we will send it to you" and my response was "You know who I am, send it to me p.s your ever so slightly incompetant". You will also note they have chosen not to send the agreement they claimed to hold by return as I invited them to do. Instead they are carrying out an investigation. Quite what they are investigating I do not know, perhaps they are investigating why they mistakenly sent me a letter advising me that an unspecified littlewoods account that has nothing to do with me has been "legally" passed to Wescots for collection.

 

Such a shame they didn't include any personal information on it so I could have reported them for it

 

So who thinks I should query what they are investigating and who thinks I should keep quiet and see what they do?

wescot 1.pdf

wescot 2.pdf