ILLEGAL CCJ on ACCOUNT - DESPERATE!**WON AT LAST**

[electric lemon]

Hi there Laiste,

 

Sorry Ive not been around. My Mother has been ill & my Father not been coping so Ive been much occupied elsewhere.

 

I called the Court today & to date CL Finance have not submitted any application at all. Nothing has been submitted.

 

I am more than ready to make a start on the counter-claim as you have advised & am all ears, hands on deck to commence. I presume a major part of this is that I am still not in receipt of my statements that I asked for ages ago???

 

I look forward to hearing from you.

 

Many thanks,

.

[volvodriver]

Subscribing

[steve_butcher]

Electric/Laiste

 

Any news on this? I have had exactly the same response on my case nothing happening AT ALL.......................

[electric lemon]

Hi there Steve,

 

Some news, sort of.

 

Sadly Laiste is very busy nowadays & isnt in a position to offer any further support on this case. Huge thanks & appreciation to her for all her input to date, but other work means she is otherwise committed. ( I think she must be exhausted from all the work/input shes given CAG this year).

 

I dont really quite know where to go from here.

 

My Mother has been very unwell & I have been up & down the country trying to sort things out for my elderly parents. Consequently I have had very little time to concentrate here.

 

I actually dont know what Im doing if Im honest!

 

However, I am in Court next week on the 29th August for a Determination Hearing & I think that that is when I will have to state the following to the Judge for consideration for a stay or something?

 

1. So far CL and GE have failed to give me my statements,from when I requested them months ago. They breached/broke the law as they didnt send them to me within the specified time (the 12 day/30 day limitation)

 

2. I cant submit a Counterclaim if I dont have all the statements as the amount that CL Finance are claiming from me obviously includes charges & that makes the amount that CL are claiming from me inaccurate.

 

3. Cl finance nor their solicitors have never sent me a Deed of assignment/Notice of assignment & that is the Law. ( I actually found one that had been sent to someone else on here & I sure as hell didnt get anything remotely like that!)

 

4. The other thing is that CL filed in court before I had even had any notification from them or the solicitors or from GE that they were going to sell the debt.

 

Though saying all of this I dont have any spare money to file for anything further, & in addition I havnt a clue how to file a Counterclaim or how to word it, & from what Laiste has indicated it takes alot of time to do.

 

I have tried to look on the internet for copies of counterclaims so I can at least have a look as to what I might have to do/write. The vocabulary might not be in all the legal-type jargon but I sure am willing to have a go!

 

So if there is anyone else out there that has ever done a CounterClaim I would so appreciate having a look so I might know what I am doing.

 

Its not me trying to get out of repaying with this case, its the fact that I am so aggreived that my arrangement to pay the outstanding amount over 2 months was accepted & then 7 days later I find a court claim has been made against me, & Im furious about that.

 

I dont think the Judge will take the last part into consideration & will probably find that at the end of all this I will still have to pay but with just the charges knocked off. (that though could take ages yet due to this stay mallarcey?)I cant see that I would be so lucky as to get rid of CL on a technicality - however, I will have a damn good try!!!!!

 

So thats it for now. I just got back late last night & need to catch up with my emails etc.

 

Hope all is well with everyone else.

 

A rather stressed & knackered old Lemoney.

[tomterm8]

It can help if you have a skeleton argument... that way, you have a document that you can use to argue your case, and it saves time. See attached.

 

If you decide to go with it take three or four copies to the hearing. Attach your disclosure letter & CCA request.

 

You'll have to change the dates.

 

edit: chaged it, so last paragraph references the correct paragraphs.

Skeleton Argument - electric lemon.doc

[electric lemon]

Hi there Tomterm,

 

Many, many thanks for your help.

 

I have read through & much is helpful to me. Though I have only been able to do that today as I have had major problems with my computer & printer. (think one of my tiddlypeeps had been playing around with my PC!!)

 

I am in court this Wednesday & I'M SCARED!!!

 

Its a Determination Hearing. Half an hour has been allocated, but I'm still unsure as what to expect??

 

Can you possibly advise?

 

I did PM Laiste but am unsure if she'll be able to reply.

 

What questions should I expect to answer etc?

 

All advice most gratefully appreciated.

 

Electric Lemon

[angel49]

Hi electric

Just offering support, you will be fine!! Lots of people here supporting you and thinking of you on Wednesday.

Good luck

[Lula]

Electric, pm GaryH with what you are doing on the 29th and your arguments, he will be able to offer you advice and support, damn, thats tomorrow, ok urgently PM him

 

Take care

[tomterm8]

Hi there Tomterm,

 

Many, many thanks for your help.

 

I have read through & much is helpful to me. Though I have only been able to do that today as I have had major problems with my computer & printer. (think one of my tiddlypeeps had been playing around with my PC!!)

 

I am in court this Wednesday & I'M SCARED!!!

 

Its a Determination Hearing. Half an hour has been allocated, but I'm still unsure as what to expect??

 

Can you possibly advise?

(

I did PM Laiste but am unsure if she'll be able to reply.

 

What questions should I expect to answer etc?

 

All advice most gratefully appreciated.

 

Electric Lemon

 

Hi, electric.

 

don't be scared. Phone up the court a day before the hearing, and find out where to go, and who to speak to (probably the usher). when you go to the hearing, be quite early, and dress smartly.

 

You will be taken to a waiting room. the claimants soliciter may be there. He/she may find out who you are, and approach you. If he/she asks whether you are willing to talk about the case, say no, but you will listen to what he/she says.

 

Then, the soliciter will probably start playing mind games. This normally takes the form of (a) trying to frighten you over costs (b) suggest you have no chance of winning, and are just wasting everybodies time, © subtly suggesting you don't know what you're doing.

 

These tactics normally work, because they are expected to be quite scared. however, the judge is mainly on your side, and will force the soliciters to play by the rules. He will be interested in what you have to say.

 

When you enter the court room, address the judge with "sir" or "madam", be polite but robust, and show respect to the court.

 

When the judge asks you questions, be calm and relaxed. If he asks whether you've attempted to negotiate a settlement, inform him that you already had a repayment agreement which you were abiding by before the claimants brought you to court, based upon a pro-rata payments to all creditors, and you are unable to pay any more money.

 

If the judge asks you about the case, answer the question simply, and relevantly, saying what you think happened - you have made a legal request for a true copy of the credit agreement, and the claimant hasn't complied. he is not entitled to enforce any debt while the default continues.

 

Say to the judge that you've never been to court before, and you aren't a trained lawyer, so that you are a bit nurvous and hope that "this" will help

 

Pass to the claimant and judge your skeleton argument. Attached to the skeletone argument should be:

 

1. A copy of your credit agreement request,

2. A copy of your disclosure request.

3. A copy of the relevant legislation, Consumer Credit Act 1974 (c. 39) - Statute Law Database ,

Consumer Credit Act 1974 (c. 39) - Statute Law Database , Consumer Credit Act 1974 (c. 39) - Statute Law Database,

Consumer Credit Act 1974 (c. 39) - Statute Law Database,

Law of Property Act 1925 (c.20) - Statute Law Database

Consumer Credit Act 2006 (c. 14) - Statute Law Database

 

 

be able to talk around the legislation, (keep the following crib notes) " The claimant needs to prove they sent me a written notice of assignment

, which I recieved ( LoP act).

 

They also need to prove they sent me a default notice s89, and that an enforceable agreement exists s127.

 

But, until the claimant complies with s77,s78 of the consumer credit act, this is irrelevant, since they can not enforce the agreement.

 

If they argue they are not the creditor, then they can not be the owner either (under the def in 189(1) AND so the court has no legal jurisdiction s141. "

 

Also point out to the judge that while the claimant fail to provide statements of account for the duration of the agreement, it can't prove what the amount outstanding on the account may be, so even if all technicalities were completed, and an enforceable credit agreement provided, the court still couldn't enforce the debt.

 

Further add, you are intending to issue a counter claim against the claimant, reclaiming all unlawful collection charges, and the claimants refusal to provide the required information is preventing you doing this.

[gandolfi]

 

I am in court this Wednesday & I'M SCARED!!!

 

 

Hi Lemoney

Just wanted to wish you GOOD LUCK for tomorrow!!!

Let us know how it goes.

Gandolfi x

[GuidoT]

Yes, we are all behind you.

[electric lemon]

Hi Guys,

 

Thankyou Lula, Angel, Tomterm & Gandolfi for your support. Its so very much appreciated.

 

Tomterm your support & Information is incredible & just brilliant!

 

I printed off all the Acts & presume that if need be I might actually have to point them out? I will certainly read up on them tonight & will quote as/when appropriate.

 

Regarding the skeleton argument, am I expected to actually write up a piece of work/statement on my PC stating reasons why I oppose this to hand to the judge?

 

I thought that this was all set out in my defence that I gave in??

 

I am in court in the afternoon so will be around tomorrow until midday'ish.

 

Many thanks all. You're all stars*

 

A rather nervous & jelly-like Lemoney tonight:(

[tomterm8]

Hi Guys,

 

Thankyou Lula, Angel, Tomterm & Gandolfi for your support. Its so very much appreciated.

 

Tomterm your support & Information is incredible & just brilliant!

 

I printed off all the Acts & presume that if need be I might actually have to point them out? I will certainly read up on them tonight & will quote as/when appropriate.

 

Regarding the skeleton argument, am I expected to actually write up a piece of work/statement on my PC stating reasons why I oppose this to hand to the judge?

 

I thought that this was all set out in my defence that I gave in??

 

I am in court in the afternoon so will be around tomorrow until midday'ish.

 

Many thanks all. You're all stars*

 

A rather nervous & jelly-like Lemoney tonight:(

 

The skeleton argument I would suggest you use is in post 180. it expands on the particulars of claim, and adds a few little curve balls. You don't have to use it, but I believe handing a copy to the judge (& claimant) will help you.

[jogra4]

subscribing p.s good luck, john

[electric lemon]

Ive suddenly thought....

 

What about PPI??? Isnt that some form of unlawful insurance?

 

I read a couple of weeks ago that GE had been fined £600,000 earlier this year for obtaining PPI by deceipt.

 

Does anyone know where I would find info about this & how to go about clobbering GE/CL for this one?

 

Is there a specific letter on CAG?

 

Thanks chaps.Getting very knackered now with reading & prepping for tomorrow.

[tomterm8]

Ive suddenly thought....

 

What about PPI??? Isnt that some form of unlawful insurance?

 

I read a couple of weeks ago that GE had been fined £600,000 earlier this year for obtaining PPI by deceipt.

 

Does anyone know where I would find info about this & how to go about clobbering GE/CL for this one?

 

Is there a specific letter on CAG?

 

Thanks chaps.Getting very knackered now with reading & prepping for tomorrow.

 

That would be a counter claim. You can tell the judge that you believe the PPI was missold, and intend to make a counter claim once the claimant provides the requested details.

 

You don't need to send any letters etc yet.

 

 

Hope it goes well, what time is the hearing?

[hellhasnofury]

\hello,

 

Will be thinking of you and wishing you luck, which you won't need. Cag is behind you. Take a good few deep breaths before you start, stay focused and know that your are right and they are so very very wrong.

[tomterm8]

\hello,

 

Will be thinking of you and wishing you luck, which you won't need. Cag is behind you. Take a good few deep breaths before you start, stay focused and know that your are right and they are so very very wrong.

 

Nice post, hell:)

 

Ok, electric, you are now under instructions... I can still see you online! Naughty! go to bed now, it's late, and you need to be able to focus tomorrow (I don't need to, myself;) )

 

don't worry; have a good sleep. Whatever happens in the hearing, we will be behind you completly; the judge won't award any verdict you couldn't repay. It's not the end of the world if you were to lose... and, with your skeleton argument, you won't lose tomorrow.

 

if they produce a copy of the credit agreement in court tomorrow, you are within your rights to ask for the hearing to be adjourned so that you can consider the new evidence:)

[electric lemon]

Hey Tom!!!

 

How'd you know that I was still on my PC??!!!!!

 

Ok, Ok I am burning the candle but am trying to glean as much as I can.

 

I'm overwhelmed with the amount of people wishing me so many Good Lucks for tomorrow - thanks a million everyone.

 

I know that this case has been around for a while now & has offered alot of help & support to others too, & that the outcome of tomorrow will also lend further help to many people here so I will really do my best, not just for me but for everyone.

 

Just trying to think that....Nothing is ever as bad as you think it will be!!

 

Hope that " the force will be with me"!

 

By the way Tom, Im in at 2.p.m. GULP!!!

 

Im off like a good girly now for some zzzzzzzzzzzz's.

 

Nite all.

[miss muppet]

Good luck electric, all us Caggers are behind you, sure you'll be celebrating tonight with a cheeky vimto or 2 but not before you've posted all the gossip:)

[electric lemon]

Hi Everyone,

 

Im back & exhausted. That was really hard work.

 

I got a great Judge - NOT. He was completely on CL's side & really gave me a tough time.

 

Solicitors for CL Finance never turned up, & as I went in thought, terrific this bodes well for me. However, then the Judge told me that whilst CL hadnt turned up they had sent a letter of which he then proceeded to read out to me.

 

They basically said that they meant no disrespect to the court & wanted to minimise their clients (ME!) costs & asked for an order to be made in their absence.

 

There included with the letter was a copy of the CCA, Deed of Assignments & worst of all copy statements of my frasercard account from 2004-2005 that they said they had already sent to me. OH MY GOD I nearly had a blue fit - the complete ugly liars!!!

 

I told the judge that I had not received any of these of which he clearly disbelieved!!! I asked him to put CL to strict proof that they had sent them to me, whereupon he said...well you have them now & I shall give you some time to go over them & then come back into the court room once you are done.

 

He got a lady there to take photocopies of everything & give to me, but boy I was mad as hell, as these damn solicitors had made me out to be a complete idiot & a liar.

 

The statements they said they had provided me with (but didnt, & only sent to the court for today) were only from 2005-7, & the CCA states the account was from 2002.

 

Thank god though I also found another discrepancy.

 

On the only correspondance I had from GE months ago in response to my SAR, all they sent me was a measly letter stating ..."you have had 4 charges - these are the dates & the amounts".They didnt send any statements so I couldnt obviously check for myself, plus I knew there was more than 2 years worth.

 

I must have had some guardian angel today as when I went through the statements I saw that whilst they had stated a charge on the letter they had sent me, they hadnt in fact sent in the statement in the judges bundle pertaining to that charge.

 

I was therefore able to go back into the court room & show the judge that on one letter they were saying..here is a charge, but didnt send in the statement to prove it. Ha ha.

 

But, he just didnt get it from start to finish.

 

He kept asking me whether I disputed the debt, & that "you spent the money" & "why didnt you keep any of your statements from the past" , and "you should have paid them when they asked you to". OH MY GOD I FELT LIKE I WAS GOING TO GO MAD!!!!

 

I stated over & over again that I didnt dispute the debt, but that I disputed the amount of debt due to the fact that there was an amount that I believed to be made up of unlawful charges.

 

He then kept saying..." But theyve sent you your statements so you can see the charges", & then I would have to keep saying back...."But they arent correct" & "They havent sent me any statements, your bundle is the first time Ive seen them", & "The statements that they have sent to you are inaccurate " &" the statements arent for the correct amount of time & are incomplete" etc, etc, etc.

 

I seemed to be going round in complete & utter circles with the flamin idiot.

 

I then had to really push, & push hard & state again & again that under rules of disclosure I was entitled to this information, & that in fact CL had failed to furnish me with information from my SARS within the 12 day & 30 day timescale & that in fact they were in legal breach & liable to a Fine of £2,500.

 

It wasnt until I quoted the breach & fine that the judge succumbed & said, very, very reluctantly that he would set a judgement for CL to furnish me with the other statements within.....I quote

 

" I suppose I had better give them 2, no I think 3 weeks would be best for them to get the statements".

 

What more do you want to do...lick their Ar*e!!!

 

Unbelievable!

 

So there you have it. CCA & deeds of assignment handed over. Now just waiting for the rest of my statements to check out how many & what amounts of charges there have been.

 

I cant help but feel that, I havent really achieved much, though, as my only glimmer of remote, & I mean very remote hope is that they cant find the statements or something. Though going by that flamin Judge if they dont come up with the goods in 3 weeks he'll probably give them another month just to be sure/nice!

 

He did state that he would make sure that it was him that would be the Judge for the next hearing (flamin great - let me slit my wrists!), as he felt he would be best to deal with it as he was familiar with it now. I dont think so, he didnt quite seem to grasp hardly any of it!

 

I must say that I did explain everything from the word go (see from #1!) but he just wasnt interested.

 

Also, thought I might add that I am pretty certain that until June last year I actually ran my account really well, so dont think I will end up with any decent amount of charges to clobber them with.

 

I will go for CCI though and also need to check the PPI thing, so any letters & where to get them regarding PPI would be good. Might manage to get £200 off if Im lucky.

 

Thanks everyone for all your wonderful support. Huge virtual hugs to you Tomterm (((()))) - your crib notes were brilliant which I kept using today as was all of your advice.

 

No huge Vimto goings on in this household today sadly. But I still have to hold out a nanometer of hope for the next 3 weeks guys so I will.

 

P.S. You should have heard me when I got into my car & could verbally let rip on my own regarding the judicial system!!!! Oh, & I promptly went & bought a family bag of maltesers & virtually choked on them!!!

[electric lemon]

Way-hay!!!

 

Thats the longest post to date!!

[tomterm8]

Hi, electric... pity you had a hard day, but you haven't lost yet:)

 

can you post the alleged credit agreement:) LOL.

[electric lemon]

Thanks Tom.

 

I shall try to post up CCA though Im not too good with scanners & had diffs previously.

 

The CCA shows my signature & a squiggle from GE. Also they supplied a copy of T's & C's. Damn it.

[hellhasnofury]

Hi Everyone,

 

Im back & exhausted. That was really hard work.

 

I got a great Judge - NOT. He was completely on CL's side & really gave me a tough time.

 

Solicitors for CL Finance never turned up, & as I went in thought, terrific this bodes well for me. However, then the Judge told me that whilst CL hadnt turned up they had sent a letter of which he then proceeded to read out to me.

 

They basically said that they meant no disrespect to the court & wanted to minimise their clients (ME!) costs & asked for an order to be made in their absence.

 

There included with the letter was a copy of the CCA, Deed of Assignments & worst of all copy statements of my frasercard account from 2004-2005 that they said they had already sent to me. OH MY GOD I nearly had a blue fit - the complete ugly liars!!!

 

I told the judge that I had not received any of these of which he clearly disbelieved!!! I asked him to put CL to strict proof that they had sent them to me, whereupon he said...well you have them now & I shall give you some time to go over them & then come back into the court room once you are done.

 

He got a lady there to take photocopies of everything & give to me, but boy I was mad as hell, as these damn solicitors had made me out to be a complete idiot & a liar.

 

The statements they said they had provided me with (but didnt, & only sent to the court for today) were only from 2005-7, & the CCA states the account was from 2002.

 

Thank god though I also found another discrepancy.

 

On the only correspondance I had from GE months ago in response to my S.A.R - (Subject Access Request), all they sent me was a measly letter stating ..."you have had 4 charges - these are the dates & the amounts".They didnt send any statements so I couldnt obviously check for myself, plus I knew there was more than 2 years worth.

 

I must have had some guardian angel today as when I went through the statements I saw that whilst they had stated a charge on the letter they had sent me, they hadnt in fact sent in the statement in the judges bundle pertaining to that charge.

 

I was therefore able to go back into the court room & show the judge that on one letter they were saying..here is a charge, but didnt send in the statement to prove it. Ha ha.

 

But, he just didnt get it from start to finish.

 

He kept asking me whether I disputed the debt, & that "you spent the money" & "why didnt you keep any of your statements from the past" , and "you should have paid them when they asked you to". OH MY GOD I FELT LIKE I WAS GOING TO GO MAD!!!!

 

I stated over & over again that I didnt dispute the debt, but that I disputed the amount of debt due to the fact that there was an amount that I believed to be made up of unlawful charges.

 

He then kept saying..." But theyve sent you your statements so you can see the charges", & then I would have to keep saying back...."But they arent correct" & "They havent sent me any statements, your bundle is the first time Ive seen them", & "The statements that they have sent to you are inaccurate " &" the statements arent for the correct amount of time & are incomplete" etc, etc, etc.

 

I seemed to be going round in complete & utter circles with the flamin idiot.

 

I then had to really push, & push hard & state again & again that under rules of disclosure I was entitled to this information, & that in fact CL had failed to furnish me with information from my SARS within the 12 day & 30 day timescale & that in fact they were in legal breach & liable to a Fine of £2,500.

 

It wasnt until I quoted the breach & fine that the judge succumbed & said, very, very reluctantly that he would set a judgement for CL to furnish me with the other statements within.....I quote

 

" I suppose I had better give them 2, no I think 3 weeks would be best for them to get the statements".

 

What more do you want to do...lick their Ar*e!!!

 

Unbelievable!

 

So there you have it. CCA & deeds of assignment handed over. Now just waiting for the rest of my statements to check out how many & what amounts of charges there have been.

 

I cant help but feel that, I havent really achieved much, though, as my only glimmer of remote, & I mean very remote hope is that they cant find the statements or something. Though going by that flamin Judge if they dont come up with the goods in 3 weeks he'll probably give them another month just to be sure/nice!

 

He did state that he would make sure that it was him that would be the Judge for the next hearing (flamin great - let me slit my wrists!), as he felt he would be best to deal with it as he was familiar with it now. I dont think so, he didnt quite seem to grasp hardly any of it!

 

I must say that I did explain everything from the word go (see from #1!) but he just wasnt interested.

 

Also, thought I might add that I am pretty certain that until June last year I actually ran my account really well, so dont think I will end up with any decent amount of charges to clobber them with.

 

I will go for CCI though and also need to check the PPI thing, so any letters & where to get them regarding PPI would be good. Might manage to get £200 off if Im lucky.

 

Thanks everyone for all your wonderful support. Huge virtual hugs to you Tomterm (((()))) - your crib notes were brilliant which I kept using today as was all of your advice.

 

No huge Vimto goings on in this household today sadly. But I still have to hold out a nanometer of hope for the next 3 weeks guys so I will.

 

P.S. You should have heard me when I got into my car & could verbally let rip on my own regarding the judicial system!!!! Oh, & I promptly went & bought a family bag of maltesers & virtually choked on them!!!

 

Hello Electric Lemon,

 

These judges are a law unto themselves, They should be very well versed in the CCA and the rights of the consumer:rolleyes: . In my job, I have to keep updated with all aspects of practice, and If I don't, I cannot register and work. The same should happen to the judges. They should be sent on study days on the rights of consumers according to the cca. I am so angry for you.

 

I also feel a sense of pride for you, in the way that you held it together and eventually made him listen.

 

Well done, you have stood up for yourself, in a place everybody is scared to be.

 

You are much stronger than you were, you are now far from that very scared first poster. This is what all the help and support from your fellow caggers has done.

 

Keep it up now ready for round two