Wallers/Northern Rock vs Me

[gizmo111]

True. It's just that I didn't ask for it as a formal CCA, which could buy more time. Please remember that I'm new to all this.....and how can I tell that it's an executed agreement? Am really determined to avoid a lien....

 

It wouldn't buy any time as they will just write back that either you ahve it or send another copy. Has it got both yours and NR signatures on it.

[Cristal]

Yes, both signatures.

 

Should I actually pay the arrears, or offer to? Also, will need advice re my reply to court. should I include a letter, describin the history and my offer? Maybe I should ask Stornaway about how he finessed avoiding court?

[Cristal]

About 18 months ago, I fell three months in arrears with NR personal loan following a period of illness, hospitalisation and a family bereavement which meant I "took my eye off the ball". They took me to court but when I received the court docs I telephoned them and offered to pay the full arrears there and then. They refused to take my cash and were determined to take it to court to get a charge on my house. After perservering with daily phone calls and letters they finally (day before court) agreed to stop the court action and never even took a payment for the arrears. It was one of the most stressful periods of my life. I think my advice would be to keep in regular contact with them and try your hardest to get the court action stopped. One thing they did say to me was that whilst they were stopping the action as there was a default they could restart the action at any time if I missed another payment.

 

Hiya - i've offered to pay the arrears but No Rock is determined to progress to court (See the recent posts on the thread). Did you actually send in your Defence to Court? Or did you manage to avoid that? I'm so determinned to avoid a lien but the date for my defence to be filed is looming (9/3). No Rock claim to have sent me a default notice on 22/12 but I have no record of it. This is consistent with one of Wallers' letters arriving AFTER the 7 day limit had expired. I can't decide whether to pay the arrears or just offer to.

 

Many thanks!

[lookinforinfo]

Cristal-did you send an sar to them a couple of weeks ago? If so there should

be details of the default notice if they sent you one.

Had they sent you a default notice, it would have asked you to remedy the breach and how long you had to comply.[For instance they may have asked you to pay the arrears within seven days.]

Or if they felt the breach was not capable of remedy, what was required as

compensation. section 88 [c].

 

Since that alleged letter, have they referred to you being in default or

mentioned the letter of 22/12 apart from their fax on Wednesday?

 

Many companies maintain they do not retain copies of default notices as

they are computer generated. In the light of the legal requirement to send

out a default notice, I find this cavalier attitude to the non presentation of

such an important document as disturbing. Whether this lot will be able to

produce a copy of the original remains to be seen.

If they don't, plus if they have no proof of posting or delivery, you may well

be able to present a case to the Judge that had you known that matters had

become so serious, you would have been able to contact them earlier and

arrange for the arrears to be brought up to date-and you are still able to do

that yet. Then see what the Judge decides. And of course, you can arrange

for a set aside until they comply with the sar.

[Cristal]

I have not sent an SAR -I (stupidly) thought I could deal with the matter without it and also didn't want to aggravate No Rock. Seems like I've been too sensitive. I would happily SAR them tomorrow if that would trigger a 'set aside'.

 

Yes, Wallers' first letter to me, 30/1 (just days after I made a payment of £100) does refer to the Default Notice. Said letter arrived long after its 7 day deadline to respond.

 

As this seems to be heading to court, I'd love advice on a letter to court as and when.

 

I'm just looking at their letter to me, 15/2. It says "..our client is always willing to at least consider firm proposals to compromise the litigation should you wish to formally make some. However, unless these involve a substantial reduction in the arrears which led to the breach together with ongoing payments in the region of the original monthly instalment, these are unlikely to be accepted." They also refer to me 'unfortuante tenor' (!).

 

Again, thanks for you support.

[lookinforinfo]

That letter of the 15/2 seems at odds with what they are saying now. You

are able to make substantial reductions to your arrears. And you will know how capable you are of making ongoing payments [you might have built up some interest by now]. Maybe a little grovelling might come in handy if only

just long enough to get them to pull out of their lawsuit.

[Cristal]

I agree. I will fax them my proposal today.....presumably sans 'Without Prejudice'?

 

thanks for you input

[lookinforinfo]

In your case Cristal, I would be inclined not to include the WP words. You

want to be able to show the JUdge if it gets that far, that the first time you

realised that there was a default against you, that you responded to it, as

you would have done had you received back in December.

[Cristal]

Thanks, L! have just rec'd a faxed version of the No Rock template letter. I am positive I never rec'd the one they posted on 22/12 - I'm sure it's lost in the Xmas post (I just rec'd something else posted on 15/12!). I did, however, make 3 payments w/my Switch card over the phone subsequent to 22/12 - on 27/12, 15/01 and 19/01/07, totalling £121. Why was the default not mentioned to me then?

 

I have to think this proposal thru to No Rock....unfortunately, i won't be able to do so until over the w/end.....may run the salient point past you then, if that's ok?

 

many thanks!

[Cristal]

In your case Cristal, I would be inclined not to include the WP words. You

want to be able to show the JUdge if it gets that far, that the first time you

realised that there was a default against you, that you responded to it, as

you would have done had you received back in December.

I hope it's ok to paste this draf letter here?

 

Thank you for your rapid reply to my fax to you, dated 28th February 2007.

 

Northern Rock has now provided me with a faxed template letter of the ‘Formal Demand’ that you refer to in your fax to me, dated 1st March 2007. Though Northern Rock maintains that a similar letter was sent to me on 22nd December 2006, I can assure you it has yet to arrive at my address. I would have been quick to respond to it had I seen it. As you know from previous conversations and correspondence, other letters from yourself and the Court have also suffered delays in delivery.

 

I have always maintained contact with Northern Rock regarding my recent payment difficulties. I wrote to Northern rock in November 2006, proposing an interim monthly payment of £20 with a view to resuming normal payments in January. In fact, I have paid more than that, a total of £296 between September 2006 and January 2007. I spoke with a number of Northern Rock representatives in the last six months and made three payments over the telephone after the Default Notice was posted to me, though it was never mentioned to the best of my knowledge during these calls. Given my behaviour patterns up to this time, it is safe to assume that I would certainly have responded rapidly to any mention of a Default Notice,

 

In any event, I would very much like to avoid this matter going to court and, as such, refer to your letter to me, dated 15th February 2007 and specifically to your second paragraph:

“….our client is always willing to at least consider firm proposals to compromise the litigation should you wish to formally make some. However, unless these involve a substantial reduction in the arrears which led to the breach together with ongoing payments in the region of the original monthly instalment, these are unlikely to be accepted”

I have indeed offered to pay the arrears and resume normal payments but both you and Mr. Wilkinson at Northern Rock rejected this proposal.

 

In light of the above, I hope you will reconsider my proposal and I look forward to hearing from you soonest.

[In The Know]

Yes, I agree about the stress but this is my home and my office. And am emotionally attached. The mortgage and secured loans are not up to date but I am in constant contact with both. They are only now starting to make noises. Am desperately trying to stop liens on the property but staying here vs. renting? Might as well pay the 'rent' here. I think? I do not have a steady income, but it arrives in 'bunches'. I cannot predict when the next 'bunch' will arrive. I would be willing to take out a loan to bridge myself until then, but think it is unlikely I could find one with my credit rating. I would hate to go bankrupt, lose my home and then find, a month or two later, that it was avoidable. So, I intend to do whatever it takes to postpone and hopefully avoid it. Thank you soooo much for your help!

 

 

Hi Cristal,

 

I know exactly how you feel and the advice you have been given so far is all good, accurate information.

What you really have to consider though, is if you are somewhat in denial.

Your debt situation, unless your prospective income is fantastic, is not worth fighting, is it?

If you have no equity, then it is highly unlikeley that the bankruptcy courts will take your house form you.

You will not get rid of your secured debts, although it would probably give you greater bargaining power, but you will get rid of the £125k unsecured debts and with no worry of accumalating charging orders.

Nobody wants to go bankrupt for many reasons and whilst when discharged after 1 yr or sooner (can be as little as 3 months) your credit file will show that you are a discharged bankrupt for 6 years, what is worse, the prospects you currently face, or at least being able to get on with your life.

This may not be what you want to hear, but in truth it is logical.

 

Best Wishes,

ITK

[Cristal]

Thanks for you honest post. I am constantly re-evaluating my options. Bankruptcy is tempting but it is my absolute final option. I have investigated it but there is no way to determine how long it will take to be discharged or what the true financial remifications will be. I know a number of people that opted for bankruptcy and are still being pursued by creditors after being discharged. I am also not keen on losing my property, where I have resided for 2 1/2 decades.

 

*Sorry - I've just re read your post....how is it possible to keep my property and go bankrupt? Won't the mortgage co. force the sale of the property? Who establishes the value of the property? I thought i couldn't have any credit, so how could i have a mortgage? I'm v. interested in exploring this!*

 

So, I intend to fight to the last and only go bankrupt if I absolutely have to. In the end, I accept I may have to but I am on the verge of a major leap in income and will wait it out. I would hate to go bankrupt only to find a month or so later that I could have avoided it. Again, thanks so much for your considered advice. It is much appreciated.

[gizmo111]

Have a read here Cristal http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/56970-insolvency-dealing-debt.html

[Cristal]

Gizmo, thanks for directing me to that link. I've read it and it appears to me that each bankruptcy is completely and utterly individual - there are too many variables for me to decide based on the info here. Perhaps a DMP is a good option for me. In any event, as each case is special, I think it best if I seek direct legal advice re my particular situation. I'll keep you posted.

 

 

If anyone has any comments on my letter to Wallers/Northern Rock, I'd be so very grateful.

 

Again, huge thanks for your input.

[lookinforinfo]

Cristal your letter to Wallers is fine. If you haven't yet sent it, do it asap.

Then just sit back and wait.

[Cristal]

Thank you soooo much, L. Was concerned it wasn't quite grovelling enough. Am wondering if i should also offerf to pay two months in advance as well as the arrears. Will whizz it off to Wallers Monday and not cc No Rock.

 

Enormous thanks! Cx

[Gingerheid]

Re bankruptcy, a couple of the particular things I've noticed that would 'individual' about yours:

 

- the cost of your monthly mortgage payments.

 

In many cases where there is no equity in the house and none is forseen in the next three years the Official Receiver would not object to you carrying on paying your mortgage. After equity in the house their next concern would be what you could afford to pay into the bankruptcy. In a normal case s/he would know that if someone was forced to give up their mortgage then their rent would probably cost more and leave that person in no better a position to make payments into the bankruptcy. Your mortgage must be massive, so that may not be the case for you to such a signifcant extent that it would be 'worthwhile' for you to be forced to give up the property.

 

- whether you would be able to keep the mortgage / secured loan payments up in any case

 

The Official Receiver's lack of objection to you staying in the house has to be matched by secured creditors also not objecting. This is always entirely conditional on their payments being met. Can you really do this? Obviously if the repayments on your unsecured debts are high too then maybe bankruptcy would put you in a better position, but I wonder.

 

- The length of a bankruptcy

 

Early discharge is always a possibility. Three months is a pub story - 6 might be possibly and 9ish is probably more realistic to hope for. However any early discharge at all would be dependent on your bankruptcy being straightforwardish. Something that might not be straightforwardish is a house that nobody quite knows what to do with or what will happen to.

 

Another thing that strikes me is that you have negative equity on a high value house that you have owned for 25 years. I presume you've remortgaged at least once for a significant sum? There is a chance that the Official Receiver's staff would get nosey and decide to try and work out for themselves what the money you got did with itself. Banks are as slow as when giving anyone information, so this could eat into the time you might otherwise be getting discharged early during. In short, I certainly wouldn't rely for a second on the bankruptcy being a day less than 1 year.

 

- Being a MD

 

This could be a serious problem. Obviously you couldn't do it, as you know, and there's no realistic way around it. It's easy to say put the company in the wife / kid / pal / friend of cat's name... and at least as easy to get caught for exactly them same. It's actually no surprising how little your nearest and dearest will know about business papers that all have your name all over them!

 

If you work in an industry where it is an effective practical requirement for you to trade through a limited company then sadly this might be a serious problem. Do other people in your industry trade without it being though companies?

 

- Future action from more unsecured creditors

 

If you did want to try and go bankrupt and keep the house, now is the time to try; it won't get any easier if more unsecured creditors bundle into the charging order route and also get charges on your house; they'd all need to be kept happy.

 

- Do Northern Rock realise there's no equity?

 

Often lawyers are very keen to get a charge, and suddenly start to get a bit more ameniable to reason once they realise the charge they are the proud owner of isn't actually worth the paper it's written on, far less the paper with £s written on it they paid over to get it.

 

They won't actually want to go to the expense of kicking you out if they won't get anything for their trouble, so that's probably acually the stage at which they might be most likely to listen to reason! You might want to consider sending them proof that there's no equity. It probably wouldn't stop them going for the charge, but it might make them a bit more reasonable after they got it.

[Cristal]

Cristal your letter to Wallers is fine. If you haven't yet sent it, do it asap.

Then just sit back and wait.

 

Just got a fax from Wallers, advising me that presently their client is unwilling to accept my offer. They then refer to their letter to me, 1/3, in which the strict liability arising from the breach of the CCA regulated loan was explained to me. That letter was actually a reply to one of mine. I don't know why my reference to their letter to me, dated 15/2, is overlooked. I have to file my defence by 9/3 - preusmably, I can send it overnight post on Thursday.

 

Gingerheid has suggested I let them know there's no equity left in the property.

 

Any advice?

[Cristal]

Re bankruptcy, a couple of the particular things I've noticed that would 'individual' about yours:

 

- the cost of your monthly mortgage payments.

Are about £2,400, plus £750 for the 2nd charge

 

- whether you would be able to keep the mortgage / secured loan payments up in any case

Without any other debt, I could probably deal with the mortgages. My income is patchy, comes in chunks.

- The length of a bankruptcy

 

Early discharge is always a possibility. Three months is a pub story - 6 might be possibly and 9ish is probably more realistic to hope for. However any early discharge at all would be dependent on your bankruptcy being straightforwardish. Something that might not be straightforwardish is a house that nobody quite knows what to do with or what will happen to.

 

Another thing that strikes me is that you have negative equity on a high value house that you have owned for 25 years. I presume you've remortgaged at least once for a significant sum? There is a chance that the Official Receiver's staff would get nosey and decide to try and work out for themselves what the money you got did with itself. Banks are as slow as when giving anyone information, so this could eat into the time you might otherwise be getting discharged early during. In short, I certainly wouldn't rely for a second on the bankruptcy being a day less than 1 year.

Don't like all that nosing around stuff.

 

- Being a MD

 

This could be a serious problem. Obviously you couldn't do it, as you know, and there's no realistic way around it. It's easy to say put the company in the wife / kid / pal / friend of cat's name... and at least as easy to get caught for exactly them same. It's actually no surprising how little your nearest and dearest will know about business papers that all have your name all over them!

 

If you work in an industry where it is an effective practical requirement for you to trade through a limited company then sadly this might be a serious problem. Do other people in your industry trade without it being though companies?

 

It's tricky - I really need a ltd. co.

 

- Future action from more unsecured creditors

 

If you did want to try and go bankrupt and keep the house, now is the time to try; it won't get any easier if more unsecured creditors bundle into the charging order route and also get charges on your house; they'd all need to be kept happy.

I've CCA'd most of them and most are not responding. I view this as a time buying exercise.

 

- Do Northern Rock realise there's no equity?

 

Often lawyers are very keen to get a charge, and suddenly start to get a bit more ameniable to reason once they realise the charge they are the proud owner of isn't actually worth the paper it's written on, far less the paper with £s written on it they paid over to get it.

 

They won't actually want to go to the expense of kicking you out if they won't get anything for their trouble, so that's probably acually the stage at which they might be most likely to listen to reason! You might want to consider sending them proof that there's no equity. It probably wouldn't stop them going for the charge, but it might make them a bit more reasonable after they got it

 

Well, they've just rejected my offer to clear the arrears and are gooing for court. I have to file my defence by Friday. Should I attempt another letter to the solicitors, including the negative equity sceanrio?.

 

 

Thank you so much for your thorough response. It is much appreciated.

[N#1N#2]

Cristal

 

Have you been to the Citizen advice about your problem, or even try this web site CCCS - they are great and will advice how to get the best out of a bad situation.

 

They will advice how to stop the calls and the threats

 

Takes a little time over the phone but they are good and do not cost anything not like these other debt free copmanies???

[Cristal]

Thanks, B. I really thought No Rock would accept my payment of arrears. Thanks for the reference to CAB and CCCS - I've had success with Payplan, 0800 716239. My problem is that I need to deal with this ASAP, as I need to file a defence by Friday.

 

The calls and threats by other creditors has stopped, as I've CCA'd the debt collectors. Seems to work! and, yes, everyone should be wary of companies offering 'debt management'. It often seems that they benefit more from the arrangement than the client does!

[Gingerheid]

My honest gut feeling it that nothing on this planet will stop them going for a charge (except payment in full tomorrow.)

 

I believe however that the payment arrangement you are suggesting would stop a judge giving the possession. I do not think a judge would think it was reasonable to grant possession where someone had brought the original agreement up to date.

 

It does however take you a step closer to the edge in the long run, and would still leave you with what sounds like serious issues that need sorted out fast. I'd second the recommendation of CCCS - they are excellent.

 

Re trading through a limited company; if you are effectively a sole trader with no employees, and if you are able to seek advice from a reputable accountant, you may be able to discuss the idea of a managed service company with them. I would caution you in advance that many managed service companies often seem to be used for out and out tax scams that will not help you sort things out in the long run, but an introduction to a reputable one (ie one that doesn't promise things that seem too good to be true) might be a solution for you, depending on what industry you work in.

[Cristal]

About 18 months ago, I fell three months in arrears with NR personal loan following a period of illness, hospitalisation and a family bereavement which meant I "took my eye off the ball". They took me to court but when I received the court docs I telephoned them and offered to pay the full arrears there and then. They refused to take my cash and were determined to take it to court to get a charge on my house. After perservering with daily phone calls and letters they finally (day before court) agreed to stop the court action and never even took a payment for the arrears. It was one of the most stressful periods of my life. I think my advice would be to keep in regular contact with them and try your hardest to get the court action stopped. One thing they did say to me was that whilst they were stopping the action as there was a default they could restart the action at any time if I missed another payment.

 

Well, despite my offer to clear the arrears, No Rock is continuing with the court action. I have to file my defence by Friday. What a nightmare. hope things are okay with you!

[Cristal]

My honest gut feeling it that nothing on this planet will stop them going for a charge (except payment in full tomorrow.)

Hmmmm...I agree, tho Stornoway posted (18/2) on thsi thread a similar experience and they agreed the day before court. Different solicitors, though.

 

I believe however that the payment arrangement you are suggesting would stop a judge giving the possession. I do not think a judge would think it was reasonable to grant possession where someone had brought the original agreement up to date.

Possession? I thought No Rock just wanted a charge? Presumably, i should include all relevant correspondence w/No rock in my Defence for court?

 

It does however take you a step closer to the edge in the long run, and would still leave you with what sounds like serious issues that need sorted out fast. I'd second the recommendation of CCCS - they are excellent.

Okay...am currently on hold for my Payplan expert advisor but will go to CCCS after.

 

 

Re trading through a limited company; if you are effectively a sole trader with no employees, and if you are able to seek advice from a reputable accountant, you may be able to discuss the idea of a managed service company with them. I would caution you in advance that many managed service companies often seem to be used for out and out tax scams that will not help you sort things out in the long run, but an introduction to a reputable one (ie one that doesn't promise things that seem too good to be true) might be a solution for you, depending on what industry you work in.

That's interesting!! I'lll ask my acc't aboout it!

 

Enormous thanks for your help! Cx

 

[Gingerheid]

Sorry - I'm being confusing by mentioning possession. I was looking ahead to what they might do next if they did get a charge. (And I'm afraid I can't think of anything to stop them getting one.)