British Airways refused my EU261 cancelled flight compensation claim

[00765]

I booked a direct flight from LHR to Baltimore USA on 17/12/23, with British Airways.

The flight was cancelled .

The original flight was due to depart at 3pm GMT.

I was placed on an American Airlines flight which departed from LHR at 5:30pm going to JFK not Baltimore.

At JFK I then had to secure another flight which took me to Reagan airport in Washington DC instead of Baltimore. 

I was originally due to arrive in Baltimore at 6pm local time but instead arrived at Reagan airport at 11pm local time, some 5 hrs after the expected arrival. I then had to make my own way to Baltimore.

I provided the above info to BA in my claim, for EU26 compensation.

I received the below response, today

"We’re sorry it was necessary to cancel your flight to and understand why you needed to get in contact about this. We take all reasonable measures to avoid cancelling a flight and we’ll always consider if there are any alternative solutions available before we make a decision. 

Your claim's been refused because  was cancelled because the aircraft experienced severe turbulence whilst operating the previous flight. As a result of this, mandatory inspections had to be carried out. These generally take around four hours and have to be completed before the aircraft can operate. During the inspections, damage to the aircraft was found, which meant repairs had to be carried out before the aircraft could operate

We take all reasonable measures to avoid disruption to a flight and we always consider if there are any other alternative solutions before we make a decision. The cancellation was out of our control and caused unforeseen disruption to our schedule.

Thanks again for following this up with us. Once again we're sorry for the disruption caused to your journey and I hope we have the chance to welcome you on board again soon."

Is this decision correct, can I pursue this claim further or have I reached the end of the rd?

Thanks

[jk2054]

You'd need to check records for the reason of the delay. I know there is a site somewhere that says this.

If it was due to turbulence then you wouldnt be able to claim EU261

However if BA rebooked you and that put you in a different airport, you can sue them for the costs to get you to your original destination if they didn't provide reasonable arrangemnets to get you there

[Kyosanto]

Hey there. You should take this further.

We will split this in two, first your Duty of Care claim and then your compensation claim

 

Duty of care

Regardless of the reasons for the delay or anything that happens. BA owes you the following, and this is 100%, no arguing their way out:

-Your transportation from Washington to Baltimore (they took you to wrong airport)

-Any meals+refreshments you may have had in JFK while connecting, or in LHR while waiting (if your departure was delayed too)

 

Compensation claim

I think their excuse is bogus. On first glance their excuse looks impressive, but it's irrelevant as we are not talking about a plane coming to pick you up at an outstation and that had an unforeseen adventure. The plane affected by the cancellation landed at 16:59 on the 16th December, arriving from Mexico. BA had 22 hours to find another aircraft, at their hub, and failed to do so.

You should tell them that you know the problem flight they are talking about happened the day before, and that their bad logistics isn't your problem. This is not an "unforeseen" issue as they had a full days warning, so the EC261 claims stands. See if they budge and come back and tell us.

 

 

Edit: I use flightradar24, to check flight history, but it requires a paid membership to see more than 7 days in the past.

G-ZBKC - Boeing 787-9 Dreamliner - British Airways - Flightradar24

 

 

Edited January 8 by Kyosanto

[00765]

Thanks for this Kyosanto,  you have articulated excellently what I was thinking regarding BA's bad logistics , not being my issue. . I will pursue this & let you know how I do. Thanks again. You've given wind to my sails!

[jk2054]

Just FYI 22 hours is deemded reasonable so if your basis is that it's unreasonable, that won't succeed

[honeybee13]

Where did you get that from, JK?  Can you link us please?

HB

[Kyosanto]

@jk2054

Care to develop what you mean?

22hrs seems like a reasonable advance warning to source another airplane. See this jurisprudence where EZjet had about 6 hours to source another airplane but didn't, and sheriff decided they should pay.

SANDRA DUNBAR AGAINST EASY JET AIRLINE COMPANY LIMITED

WWW.SCOTCOURTS.GOV.UK

 

[jk2054]

Nothing to develop, its common practice in law that a delay of under 24h wouldn't be unreasonable. The OP did complete their journey and turbulence is excluded. That's just the law.

[Kyosanto]

"It's common practice" for spreaders of fake news to start their sentences with "it's common practice" or "it's well known that", followed by what ever they believe without a shred of evidence. Apparently it impresses the gullible.

Airline delays are regulated by UK261/EC261 which determines what length of time is reasonable or not. In the case of OP, 4 hours.

"Turbulence" is irrelevant. There is wide jurisprudence available for what does and does not constitute exeptional and unforeseen circumstances that can mitigate right to compensation.

It would be positive to the thread to see you contribute with sources to back your claims, otherwise, it's just turbulence....

[00765]

I have submitted the appeal & will post BA's response , once I get it. Thanks for all your  comments .

[Kyosanto]

Good luck. If your appeal fails the next step would be to make a complaint to the Alternative Dispute Resolution association that BA adheres to. In this case, it's one called "CEDR"

 

Dispute Resolution, Conflict Management & Mediation Services - CEDR

 

[00765]

Good morning,

BA have responded and refused my appeal.

Below is BA's response"

An update from British Airways

We’re sorry you’re unhappy with the outcome of your claim and we understand why you needed to get back in contact with us about this.

I’ve had another look at your claim for compensation and I’ve taken time to make sure our response is accurate and up-to-date. Based on this, our decision hasn’t changed and the response you’ve received about the eligibility of your compensation claim are correct.

As your flight was cancelled because the aircraft experienced severe turbulence whilst operating the previous flight. As a result of this, mandatory inspections had to be carried out. These generally take around four hours and have to be completed before the aircraft can operate. During the inspections, damage to the aircraft was found, which meant repairs had to be carried out before the aircraft could operate, which means you’re not eligible for compensation.

Article 5.3 of the EU Regulation 261/2004 and The Air Passenger Rights and Air Travel Organisers’ Licencing (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019 states a carrier is not obliged to pay compensation if it can prove the delay or cancellation is caused by extraordinary circumstances, that couldn’t have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken. In Recital 14 and 15 of EU Regulation 261/2004, extraordinary circumstances include weather, strike and the impact of an air traffic management decision which gives rise to a long delay. This means you’re not entitled to compensation under the EU Regulation for your cancelled flight.

If you would like to know more about compensation, please visit our pages on ba.com.

We know this experience didn’t meet our usual standards, and so I’d like to offer you an eVoucher for £50.00, which I hope goes some way towards making up for what happened. There are full details about how to use this here.

• eVoucher number: 
• Name: 
• Value: £50.00
• Expires: 15 January 2025

Thanks again for contacting us. Once again we're sorry for the inconvenience that was caused to your journey and I hope we have the chance to welcome you back on board again soon.

Best regards"

Should I go to ADR?

[jk2054]

Hi,

 

As I advised before turbulence is excluded. You can try ADR but such schemes tend to favor the regulations over looking at the circumstances so I doubt you’d be succesfull.

 

I believe also that some ADR schemes charge for cases

[jk2054]

infact i see they charge £25 to handle your case which you dont get back unless you win

[00765]

In the bigger scheme of things, £25 is bearable however I do need to consider my chances of success, as I don't want to expend huge amount of effort & energy at a losing battle. 

If I do decide to pursue the claim, do I have to complete an ADR form?

What is the process I would need to follow?

After some calm consideration, & after re reading the comments on this thread, I have decided to pursue the matter.

I am of the view that if there was indeed turbulence , that event was likely to cause some element of foreseeable damage to the aircraft ie BA should have set in motion, the possible need for an alternate plane.

Also my flight was due to depart from BA's hub  at LHR ie BA should have been able to source an alternate plane at their hub, in the intervening 22 hrs between the cessation of the apparent turbulence event & the scheduled departure of my flight. 

The flight on which i was eventually booked, took me to Reagan airport, not the booked Baltimore. There was no apology, no customer centred service delivery, just utter indifference. 

I may not succeed but I will have tried. 

BA, an apparent reputable airline, did nothing to alleviate my distress, anxiety and confusion caused ,by the sudden flight cancellation  and ensuing lack of information and  extended delay.

Ultimately, I got the sense that BA  (like many major airlines),  who during COVID, had cried out for governments to support them, now post pandemic are once again making so much money, that they feel that they can treat economy passengers or maybe any passenger such as myself ,with impunity.  I may be wrong but that's my perception.  

 As I'm sure, like everyone on this site, i work hard for the money, I use to pay for expensive transatlantic flights.

Surely I can expect to receive a basic level of  decent customer service from an airline , which purports to be world class.. 

I have asked BA to provide me with clear & independent evidence of the extraordinary circumstance, which I think someone on this thread mentioned earlier.

Thanks

[Kyosanto]

Hey there. It seems that BA have already provided their side of the story here, so you are not likely to get anything further from them.

It does indeed seem that the ADR they are using may charge £25 if your claim is unsucessful... that's not very clear language to say the least. At least you were offer a voucher that pays for half of it.

However before going further can you clarify whether you did a duty of care claim for your transportation from Washington to Baltimore? How did you travel there and do you have supporting evidence? 

IF you claimed for this but they refused your claim then I can all but guarantee your ADR claim will be succesful (at least in part) so that's the fee not to worry about.

If you decide to go to court for this you will need to do some research on past similar cases. You won't be arguing that the damage was not exceptional (it was, and there's no arguing here), but that BA should have been able to source another aircraft. There's the Dunbarr V EZ Jet I linked above where the passenger was succesful, there is also one case V Lufthansa where the German judge found in favor of the airline, however with a big caveat that the airline must be able to prove their logistics were on point. I'm pretty sure I linked this one in one of the other threads around here.

Someone else will be able to confirm but the worse you can lose from SCC is £50 I believe.

Re: your wording from above, a good frequent advice from these forums is to leave "distress" and other emotional factors out of your claim, as they are not claimable damages.

Maybe sleep on it and see what you feel like in a few days! That's what I'm doing (I'm in a similar predicament as you with KLM right now, I was recently delayed by close to 18hrs as the aftermath of a weather event, that was no longer occuring when my flight was scheduled to take place - they paid for hotel and £60 but declined my EC261, I am wondering whether it's worth taking them to the next step, but in my case it's only £220 compensation so a lot of hass for not much further gain)

[00765]

Morning,

 

I asked BA to kindly provide me with independent evidence of the extraordinary circumstance. They have not provided me with the evidence but instead the below response to that request 

 

"

We’re sorry you remain unhappy with the outcome of your claim and we understand why you needed to get back in contact with us about this.

 

I’ve had another look at your claim for compensation and I’ve taken time to make sure our response is accurate and up-to-date. Based on this, our decision hasn’t changed and the response's you’ve received about the eligibility of your compensation claim are correct. This means you won't receive any further responses from us about this claim.

 

As your flight was cancelled because the aircraft experienced severe turbulence whilst operating the previous flight. As a result of this, mandatory inspections had to be carried out. These generally take around four hours and have to be completed before the aircraft can operate. During the inspections, damage to the aircraft was found, which meant repairs had to be carried out before the aircraft could operate, which means you’re not eligible for compensation.

 

You can refer your complaint to the Centre for Effective Dispute Resolution (CEDR) for an independent decision to be made. CEDR is an independent dispute resolution provider, certified by the Civil Aviation Authority, to adjudicate disputes between airlines and their passengers which haven’t been resolved through the airline’s own complaints procedure.

 

You can find out how to refer your complaint to CEDR by visiting their website: CEDR

 

Please note that the scope of the adjudication scheme is limited and it could be that your complaint falls outside of it. If you choose to contact CEDR, they’ll be able to advise you if they’re able to deal with your complaint.

 

If your claim falls within the scope of the CEDR Scheme Rules and your application to CEDR is accepted, any previous offer of settlement made by British Airways will be withdrawn. If the application is taken to adjudication, the adjudicator's decision will be final.

 

Thanks again for contacting us."

 

I don't understand why BA did not source an alternate aircraft at their hub at LHR, which happens to have been the airport from where i was departing. The incident occurred 22hrs prior to my scheduled departure. What am i missing here? And why are they not providing me with evidence beyond their 'word'?

[Kyosanto]

Hi there, have you taken this further in the meantime?

Sorry I notice I never replied to your last post, but there was nothing to add really. BA have given you their "word" and to be honest I trust that the story about the damage and inspection is true. Again it will be up to you to challenge the logistics aspect with the ADR / SCC. It's very common for airlines to refuse to consider logstics because why admit claims when you can deny them, right? If you have evidence of you pointing it out and them blanking your questions, it will look better on you I'm sure.

You still need to answer whether they paid for your transportation costs, because if they didn't, then you really will win your case, for sure, and need not worry about the ADR fee.

I would also contact the ADR body in writing and ask them to clarify whether you'd have to pay if you lose, or if it's only for complaints that were made in bad faith.