Countrywide ANPR PCN - in carpark for 10 mins - Disabled Parking Spot - appeal refused by CW - Kingswood Way Great Denham Bedford Bedfordshire MK40 4GH

[FTMDave]

The consideration period is 5 minutes, and then grace period 10 minutes, so you left within this 15-minute window.

The private parking company will still try it on and try to fleece you though.

The best thing to do would be to contact the medical centre.

 

[FTMDave]

I agree with Nick.

Work calls now but a thunderbolt for the medical centre will be prepared this evening.

[FTMDave]

How about something like this for the Medical Centre?

Dear Manager,

Re: parking invoice no.XXXXX

I refer to my telephone conversation with the Centre yesterday.

I agree that it is disgraceful behaviour if someone abuses a car park belonging to a Medical Centre.

However, as explained on the telephone, I entered the car park to park in the disabled spot with my blue badge as I had business at the chemist.

I noticed all these car parking notices and went to read one but nothing was said about blue badge parking so I left to be on the safe side.  In fact the parking company's invoice showed I stayed 10 minutes.  I was not abusing the car park.

The government Code of Practice allows a 5-minute consideration period for someone to read the signs and decide if they wish to stay or not, and a 10-minute grace period to exit the car park.  The British Parking Association, which Countywide Parking Management Ltd are a member of, allow the same 5-minute and 10-minute periods.  Countywide Parking Management Ltd are also member of the International Parking Community which allow a reasonable consideration period and a 10-minute grace period.  I respected all these times.  I could indeed have taken longer as blue badge holders are allowed longer, but I respected the consideration & grace periods for an able bodied person.  The invoice that has been issued is simply unlawful.

Is this why you employed a private parking company?  To pursue genuine users of the car park and blue badge holders to boot who did nothing wrong with unlawful demands for cash?  I cannot believe so.

I'm sure the local rag and the local radio station will be very interested in such behaviour.  It's not like much goes on in Great Denham so it will be easy to get their interest.

It is complete nonsense that "it's between me and the parking company now".  You are the organ grinder.  The parking company are your agents.  You called them in.  Their issuing of unlawful invoices which ignore their own trade associations Codes of Practice to genuine users is your responsibility.

I ask you again to confirm that you have had this invoice cancelled.

Yours, XXXXX

Obviously check the above for accuracy as you know exactly what went on. and I may have made a mistake.  Send if off to the manager of the Medical Centre tomorrow by e-mail or Royal Mail (if the latter get a free Certificate of Posting).

 

[FTMDave]

Yes, it seems the OP was in the "wrong" car park.  The Medical Centre has its own.  And the pharmacy/dentist's/vet's have another.

However, unless anything has changed from May which is the Google Maps date, there is no reason why a visitor would realise about the two car parks given the pathetic signage, and it remains that the OP left within the grace period.

I've tweaked the letter below to take this into account.  I've also cut down the bit about all the trade associations to make the letter shorter & to the point.

EDIT  @mrscsmith  If you haven't already sent off the letter, use the revised version below.  But no problem if you sent the earlier version.

Edited November 21, 2023 by FTMDave
Typo

[FTMDave]

14 hours ago, FTMDave said:

How about something like this for the Medical Centre?

Dear Manager,

Re: parking invoice no.XXXXX

I refer to my telephone conversation with the Centre yesterday.

I agree that it is disgraceful behaviour if someone abuses a car park belonging to a Medical Centre.

However, as explained on the telephone, I entered the car park to park in the disabled spot with my blue badge as I had business at the pharmacy.

I noticed all these car parking notices and went to read one but nothing was said about blue badge parking.  I began to doubt that I was in the right car park so I left to be on the safe side.  In fact the parking company's invoice showed I stayed 10 minutes.  I was not abusing the car park.

The government Code of Practice allows a 5-minute consideration period for someone to read the signs and decide if they wish to stay or not, and a 10-minute grace period to exit the car park.  The International Parking Committee, the trade association which Countywide Parking Management Ltd are a member of, allow a reasonable consideration period and a 10-minute grace period.  I respected these times.  I could indeed have taken longer as blue badge holders are allowed longer, but I respected the consideration & grace periods for an able bodied person.  The invoice that has been issued is simply unlawful.

Is this why you employed a private parking company?  To pursue genuine users of the car park and blue badge holders to boot who did nothing wrong with unlawful demands for cash?  I cannot believe so.

I'm sure the local rag and the local radio station will be very interested in such behaviour.  It's not like much goes on in Great Denham so it will be easy to get their interest.

It is complete nonsense that "it's between me and the parking company now".  You are the organ grinder.  The parking company are your agents.  You called them in.  Their issuing of unlawful invoices which ignore their own trade association's Code of Practice to genuine users is your responsibility.

I ask you again to confirm that you have had this invoice cancelled.

Yours, XXXXX

Obviously check the above for accuracy as you know exactly what went on. and I may have made a mistake.  Send if off to the manager of the Medical Centre tomorrow by e-mail or Royal Mail (if the latter get a free Certificate of Posting).

 

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by FTMDave
Typo

[FTMDave]

Just to check what HB asked.  You sent the letter to the Medical Centre, right?  It is the Medical Centre that have passed on your letter to Countrywide, right?

[FTMDave]

You've been self-critical so I won't twist the knife.

However, you've done things very differently from how we advised and probably made the situation worse.

1 hour ago, mrscsmith said:

The medical centre would not deal with the letter I took it there.

Which is why we said to send it by Royal Mail so they would have to accept it and be forced to face up to their legal responsibilities.

1 hour ago, mrscsmith said:

They said to email the parking company which I did same day.

That was a dreadful idea.  We know Countrywide very well here.  Even by the standards of the private parking companies they are particularly dishonest and "cowboy-ish".  With one Cagger they took the matter personally, even coming out with personal insults.  They were never going to accept an appeal.

They haver told you a pack of lies about consideration & grace periods -

2 hours ago, mrscsmith said:

The signage specifically states that the car park is not for the use of MeikleJohn Pharmacy customers.

And how are you supposed to read the signage if you don't stop to do so?  Of course there are consideration & grace periods.  Even their own trade association says so.  Read point 13 here  https://irp.cdn-website.com/262226a6/files/uploaded/Code_of_Practice_v8.pdf

I really hope you didn't throw away your legal protections by outing yourself as the driver.

It's up to you now.  You can pay £60 and the matter will go away.  Or we can help you fight it.  Your choice.

[FTMDave]

Firstly, there is not one person on this forum who hasn't messed up when in legal dispute.  If you have never been in such a position before, it's inevitable you'll make a mistake.  The important thing is to get it right the next time.

The problem now is this.  We drafted the letter on the 21st and we hoped you would have sent it that day, meaning the Medical Centre would have got it on the 22nd, well before Countrywide's deadline to increase their demand from £60 to £100 on the 1st December, giving lots of wriggle room.  Now any letter won't get there till the 28th which is cutting it fine.

Have a read of  https://www.tvmc-gtdenham.org/practice_news/parking-at-the-village-medical-centre/

Two things stand out.  Firstly, there is a grace period so Countrywide are simply liars.  Secondly, it is not the Medical Centre who called in Countrywide but the landlord of the building so that means pushing the Medical Centre to push the landlord, all of which will take time, and it is a great pity about the wasted six days.

I'm off to a football match shortly.  I'll be back around 6:15pm UK time and will draft a new letter to the Medical Centre taking into account this new information about the landlord and the stated grace period.  It has to be worth a shot pushing them to intervene.

[FTMDave]

I'm in a rush now but will answer your questions this evening.

If you can get the landlord's details that would be brilliant, potentially the key to solving the whole thing.

[FTMDave]

OK, see what the other regulars think, then send this off to the Medical Centre first thing on Monday, 1st class post, free Certificate of Posting from the post office.

Obviously check for accuracy.  Are Bedford Today and Radio Bedford the local newspaper and local radio?  You know the area better than me!  If so put their names or other names in the bit where I've written "the local rag and the local radio station".

I see they are giving you until 8 December now to pay the £60 which gives us extra time.

Dear Manager,

Re: parking invoice no.XXXXX

I refer to my telephone conversation with the Centre last Monday and in person last Friday.

I agree that it is disgraceful behaviour if someone abuses a car park belonging to a Medical Centre and I understand why your landlord wished to control parking.  But I was not an abuser! 

I entered the car park to park in the disabled spot with my blue badge as I had business at the pharmacy.

I noticed all these car parking notices with their tiny writing and went to read one but nothing was said about blue badge parking.  I began to doubt that I was in the right car park so I left to be on the safe side.  In fact the parking company's invoice showed I stayed 10 minutes.  I was not abusing the car park.  I did what someone is supposed to do when they find out they are not supposed to park - to leave as soon as possible.

The government Code of Practice allows a 5-minute consideration period for someone to read the signs and decide if they wish to stay or not, and a 10-minute grace period to exit the car park.  The International Parking Committee, the trade association which Countrywide Parking Management Ltd are a member of, allow a reasonable consideration period and a 10-minute grace period.  I respected these times.  I could indeed have taken longer as blue badge holders are allowed longer, but I respected the consideration & grace periods for an able bodied person.  The invoice that has been issued is simply unlawful.

The Medical Centre refused to help and told me to write to the private parking company who predictably replied with a pack of lies "There is no Grace period in this car park as it is private land" in complete contradiction to legislation, their own trade association and indeed what is written on the Medical Centre's own website which explains the grace period!

Is this why the landlord employed a private parking company?  To pursue genuine users of the car park and blue badge holders to boot who did nothing wrong with unlawful demands for cash?  I cannot believe so.  I do believe however that the landlord did not do any due diligence before calling in Countrywide Parking Management Ltd as it is very easy to research this cowboy company and read of its dreadful reputation.

I'm sure the local rag and the local radio station will be very interested in such behaviour.  It's not like much goes on in Great Denham so it will be easy to get their interest.

I am writing to ask you please to request the landlord to have this invoice cancelled.  I would also be most obliged if you would send me the landlord's details.

Yours, XXXXX

Edited November 25, 2023 by FTMDave
Typos

[FTMDave]

Great digging dx.

@mrscsmith Send to both.  Belt & braces.  You might as well enclose a photocopy of the invoice with both letters so they see which car park it is and that you have proof of the 10-minute stay.

I'm not surprised BTW that you're confused about a grace period and such, I've been on the site for eight years and it took me seven to work it out! 

There is a "consideration period" to allow motorists to read the signs - you can't agree to conditions on a sign if you haven't had the chance to read it!

Then there is a "grace period" for you to leave the car park, which in large car parks at busy times can take a while.

You were within these periods. 

However, as you've seen, they like Countrywide regularly ignore the above, they hope the motorist won't know, will think they've received a fine, and just give in.

We even had someone taken to court for a 29 second stay! - you can guess who won.

I don't know if Countryside giving you an extra week to pay the £60 was a mistake or not, but who cares, they've written it, they're stuck with it now, so it gives you a bit more time to push the Medical Centre.

[FTMDave]

I get the impression this place is quite close to you.  If so I would hand deliver the letters today, that would (a) save a day and (b) prevent reception from refusing the letters, which I believe is what happened to you last week.

Hand deliver to the Medical Centre.

Hand deliver to the retired doctor presumed landlord.

Royal Mail tomorrow or hand deliver today depending on distance to Queens Park Group Surgery.

[FTMDave]

That should do the trick.

But you get some legal terms wrong and it would be better to get them right so you show you know what you are talking about.

What Countrywide are doing is not illegal (a crime) but unlawful (not in accordance with the law).  What you have received is an invoice, not a fine, a private company doesn't have the power to issue fines.

So all references to illegal need to be changed to unlawful and can be fined to can be sent an invoice.

[FTMDave]

I'm at work now so can't deal with this.  Just get the letters off to everywhere we've mentioned.  Then it will depend on the company policy.  Either they will have taken a decision to never cancel invoices, or they will have decided to be flexible.  The letters will show which.

[FTMDave]

Hopefully the letters will kick up enough of a stink to get the charge cancelled.  However, you can't rely on that.  It's always best to prepare too much than too little when you're in legal dispute.

Nick is right that the signs are a comedy of errors.  "No Parking or Stopping at any time" - eh, not even for patients of the medical centre?  Most of the signs look like they've been designed to be read by gnomes.

Countrywide do do court so building up evidence of their pathetic signage is a great idea - well done.  This has to be done methodically, for each sign (a) note when it went up, (b) take a close-up photo and (c) take a photo showing what it would look like to someone driving into the car park.

The stuff about no grace period is nonsense.  A grace period is mentioned on the Medical Centre's website.  Countrywide are also members of the BPA who allow a 5-minute grace period.  in any case a judge would laugh at the idea that you are allowed exactly 0:00 minutes to read the signage and decide if you want to stay!

This thread is very long but reading it will teach you everything you need to know about Countrywide  https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/414313-cpmbw-windscreen-pcns-bw-pap-loc-now-claimform-residential-car-park-the-citrus-building-maderia-road-bournemouth-claim-dismissed-with-costs-now-another-paploc-for-another-same-place-ticket-dismissed-again-with-costs/#comments

I won't spoil the ending - but it's fun.

[FTMDave]

I'm at work now so in a rush but Countrywide are unlikely to do court over a 10-minute stay.  As for the number of Caggers who win in court with these cases - well I did some calculations for reasons I won't bore you with recently and it was around 85%.  Any case would be at your local court.

Anyway, "cross that bridge" and all that, we still have to see if the letters will have an effect.

 

[FTMDave]

Any reply to your letters?

[FTMDave]

Ignore what I wrote above,  I'd got it into my head that Wednesday was the extended deadline that Countrywide had given you to pay, but I now realise it's Friday.  There's loads of time yet.

[FTMDave]

On 28/11/2023 at 15:17, mrscsmith said:

My issue I wont be able to prove when the signage went up.

But then neither will they.

If by some horror this went to court you would state the truth about the days the signs went up.  They would (a) have to prove the opposite (they couldn't), (b) have to lie or (c) ignore your point.  You'd be on very good ground.

Keep noting the signs and when they go up.

On 28/11/2023 at 19:49, mrscsmith said:

I have finally finished reading the thread quoted above - to be honest I am totally shocked at their behaviour.

Good grief - you don't mess about!  I meant to read that long, long thread over a number of days!  Anyway, it's a good education re Countrywide and how they work.

[FTMDave]

And just in case Countrywide disappear the Medical Centre page that talks about grace periods ...

... it's here for posterity.

Medcial Centre screenshot.pdf

Edited December 4, 2023 by FTMDave
Forgto to add PDF

[FTMDave]

What you've found out is dynamite Nick.

The correct terms for the initial time-to-read-the-signs period is "consideration period" and for the final time-to-leave-the-car-park period is "grace period".  That's what they're referred to in the various Codes of Practice.  But learning two terms is asking a bit too much of Benita, bless her, and she refers to them both as grace periods.

Anyway, Benita states there is a 5-minute time-to-read-the-signs period as does the medical centre's website - yet on their signs and in their letter to the OP they say there is not.  So which is it?  How is anyone supposed to make sense of such confusion?

But the best bit is that Benita accepts there is a 5-minute time-to-read-the-signs period and a time-to-leave-the-car-park period.  This is 10 minutes in the various Codes of Practice.  When I did maths at school 5 + 10 = 15 so that is the OP in the clear.

It is also a breach of the Equalities Act to not take into consideration that a blue badge holder may need extra time to read the signs and then leave the car park. 

Bad work, Benita.

[FTMDave]

@mrscsmith

There seems to be some sort of war between the medical centre and the pharmacy, considering the info that Nick has found, so I think you have to start to consider what you will do if the landlord doesn't cooperate by Friday.  That is the extended deadline that Countrywide have given you to pay.

Pay £60 and the matter goes away.

Or refuse to pay Countrywide.  We would help you all the way.  The law is on your side with the signage designed for gnomes and the 15-minute consideration & grace periods.  As you've seen, Countrywide won't accept that though and will destroy half the Amazon by sending you letters that are supposed to be threatening.  Eventually they will likely give up as even they know that are on very dodgy ground with a 10-minute stay.  However, they do do court as you have seen.  That is unlikely in your case.  But not impossible, you saw in harni's case that they were so blinded by greed they started two court cases against harni, despite it being quite clear that harni had the law on his side, and of course harni won.

But your call.

[FTMDave]

Of course they are trying to confuse their victims.

Mind you, admitting to the Parish Council that there is a 5-minute period to read the signs and then lying to the OP that there isn't would come back to bite them if they were daft enough to do court.

If you look at their website  https://www.countrywideparking.co.uk/  you can see that they are members of both trade associations, the BPA and the IPC.  So they're bound by both Codes of Practice.  They have admitted that there are 5 minutes to read the signs.  The CoPs are quite clear that there are 10 minutes to leave the car park.  game, set, match to the OP.

The OP should just ignore them now, but obviously update us when their next threat arrives.

      

 

[FTMDave]

I agree with dx, e-mail only needs to be knocked on the head if the matter gets to court.

And HB is right, claim forms arrive by Royal Mail.

[FTMDave]

No, don't worry, Trace are a third party who can't do anything as it's not their debt.  Just laugh at the letter and ignore it.

Hot air from paper tigers.

Little legal lesson.  Say you & I were in legal dispute.  Well I could sue you and you could sue me.  Your best friend couldn't sue me and my next door neighbour couldn't sue you, as the case would have nothing to do with them.  Debt collecting agencies are the same.  They have as much power as the orange peel I have just thrown in the bin.  They can do nothing. 

Edited February 2 by FTMDave
Extra info added