Countrywide ANPR PCN - in carpark for 10 mins - Disabled Parking Spot - appeal refused by CW - Kingswood Way Great Denham Bedford Bedfordshire MK40 4GH

[mrscsmith]

I have enlarged the photo on my phone as it says as follows:

NO PARKING OR STOPPING AT ANY TIME (This is a new sign and placed on the ground of the passenger side)
No exceptions or grace period.  Blue Badge Holders are not exempt.

By entering or remaining on this land you agree to abide by all of the terms and conditions.  Breach of any term or condition will result in the driver being liable for a parking charge.

Parking Charges are to be paid within 28 days.  Additional parking charges apply for each 24 hour period, or part thereof, that the vehicle remains in breach of if it returns at any time.  Terms and conditions apply 24 hours a day, all year around.  Non payment will result in additional charges which will be added to the value of the charge and for which the driver will be liable on an indemnity basis.  We are not liable for any loss or damage howsoever caused to any person or property whilst on this site save under any statutory exceptions. 

Then a Personal Data paragraph 

Does that help??

This sign is about 3 inches off the ground on the passenger side at the entrance where it is impossible for a driver to see or stop to read as other cars will be right behind to get into the car park. 

The other sign on the drivers side  where cars exit the car part is impossible to read from across the path and again  just above ground level.

PARKING ENFORCEMENT IN OPERATION 24 HOURS

Parking for the village medical centre patients, clients and staff only.

You must provide your full and correct vehicle registration number into the kiosk located within reception upon arrival. 

Vehicles must be parked fully within the confines of a single marked parking bay.
Vehicles parked within the disabled bays must clearly display a valid blue badge and adhere to the above terms.

By entering or remaining on this land you agree by all the terms and conditions.

Any breach of any term or condition will result in the driver being liable for a parking charge.

Parking charges are to be paid within 28 days.  Additional charges apply for each 24-hour period  or part thereof, that the vehicle remains in breach or if it returns at any time. 

Terms and conditions apply 24 hours a day, all year around.  Non-payment will result in additional charges which will be added to the value of the charge and for which the driver will be liable on an indemnity basis. 

We are not liable for any loss or damage howsoever cause to any person or property whilst on this site save under any statutory exceptions.

Then the personal data paragraph again. 

Why these signs are not placed at car window height instead of on the ground is really amazing.
 

Edited November 28, 2023 by mrscsmith

[Nicky Boy]

So, we can already see they aren't following their own code of practice on numerous points...

 

Additionaly, you say that these signs have literally just appeared in the last few days...

From their own code of practice again:

Schedule 1 – Signage

Changes in Operator’s Terms and Conditions
Where there is any change to any pre-existing terms and conditions that would not be immediately apparent to a person visiting the Car Park and which materially affects the Motorist, the Operator should place additional (temporary) notices at the entrance making it clear that new terms and conditions/charges apply, such that regular visitors who may be familiar with the old terms do not inadvertently incur Parking Charges.
Notices should be in addition to the signage ordinarily required and left in place for an appropriate period.

 

This is turning into a farcical comedy of errors by Countrywide!

[FTMDave]

Hopefully the letters will kick up enough of a stink to get the charge cancelled.  However, you can't rely on that.  It's always best to prepare too much than too little when you're in legal dispute.

Nick is right that the signs are a comedy of errors.  "No Parking or Stopping at any time" - eh, not even for patients of the medical centre?  Most of the signs look like they've been designed to be read by gnomes.

Countrywide do do court so building up evidence of their pathetic signage is a great idea - well done.  This has to be done methodically, for each sign (a) note when it went up, (b) take a close-up photo and (c) take a photo showing what it would look like to someone driving into the car park.

The stuff about no grace period is nonsense.  A grace period is mentioned on the Medical Centre's website.  Countrywide are also members of the BPA who allow a 5-minute grace period.  in any case a judge would laugh at the idea that you are allowed exactly 0:00 minutes to read the signage and decide if you want to stay!

This thread is very long but reading it will teach you everything you need to know about Countrywide  https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/414313-cpmbw-windscreen-pcns-bw-pap-loc-now-claimform-residential-car-park-the-citrus-building-maderia-road-bournemouth-claim-dismissed-with-costs-now-another-paploc-for-another-same-place-ticket-dismissed-again-with-costs/#comments

I won't spoil the ending - but it's fun.

[mrscsmith]

My issue I wont be able to prove when the signage went up.
Certainly if my daughter (who was in the car with me on the first visit) seen a sign saying NO BLUE BADGES we would have left immediately.
I only got these photos yesterday as I parked elsewhere and went to walk to the entrance to take the photos. 
Shocked to see how near the entrance they are and how low down they are.  Surely that is not lawful, its a trap set to catch everyone out. 

To be honest my health is not good and I dont think I can face any court hearing. Travel is difficult and god knows what the costs will be to get anywhere.  How many people win these ticket arguments in court?  I am not any good at speaking in public. 

I am going back next door next week so can take more photos if needed (and maybe a tape measure to check how high the signs are)

I agree the text is very conflicting from sign to sign and the board that was on the back has disappeared as well. 
That was the one I got out of my car to read which said nothing of blue badges.

[FTMDave]

I'm at work now so in a rush but Countrywide are unlikely to do court over a 10-minute stay.  As for the number of Caggers who win in court with these cases - well I did some calculations for reasons I won't bore you with recently and it was around 85%.  Any case would be at your local court.

Anyway, "cross that bridge" and all that, we still have to see if the letters will have an effect.

 

[mrscsmith]

I have finally finished reading the thread quoted above - to be honest I am totally shocked at their behaviour.
Even as a disabled person I think I could present a case better than these.
 

Also I know I said yesterday I thought I had taken a photo of the sign but then thought I had not and then today I actually did have that photo - this is typical of someone with my medical conditions, I may not know what I do 5 minutes later so everything will need to be dotted and crossed and dated if there is a chance of going to court. 

After reading the above thread I feel more that I have a case to fight.  The signage is just crazy, cant see what is on passenger side as at ground level, cant read what is on other side as opposite side of the drive in and likely to be hidden by any cars driving out. 

One sign says no disabled parking and other sign says allowed.  Plus the no grace period is unlawful and printed on the signage. 

I am one of those people who like to know that things mean and didn't learn what "grace period" was until I joined her. 

I would have googled it on the spot (at least my daughter would have) till we found out what it meant. 

[dx100uk]

but for now you sit on your hands.

..

until/unless you ever get a letter of claim

then comeback here DO NOTHING without checking here FIRST 

dx

 

[dx100uk]

On 27/11/2023 at 17:56, dx100uk said:

docx file now PDF post put back up

 

[lookinforinfo]

Where you have conflicting signs, the motorist can select the sign that fits most with their needs.

[FTMDave]

Any reply to your letters?

[mrscsmith]

So far nothing at all, it all being quiet. 

 

[FTMDave]

Ignore what I wrote above,  I'd got it into my head that Wednesday was the extended deadline that Countrywide had given you to pay, but I now realise it's Friday.  There's loads of time yet.

[FTMDave]

On 28/11/2023 at 15:17, mrscsmith said:

My issue I wont be able to prove when the signage went up.

But then neither will they.

If by some horror this went to court you would state the truth about the days the signs went up.  They would (a) have to prove the opposite (they couldn't), (b) have to lie or (c) ignore your point.  You'd be on very good ground.

Keep noting the signs and when they go up.

On 28/11/2023 at 19:49, mrscsmith said:

I have finally finished reading the thread quoted above - to be honest I am totally shocked at their behaviour.

Good grief - you don't mess about!  I meant to read that long, long thread over a number of days!  Anyway, it's a good education re Countrywide and how they work.

[FTMDave]

And just in case Countrywide disappear the Medical Centre page that talks about grace periods ...

... it's here for posterity.

Medcial Centre screenshot.pdf

Edited December 4, 2023 by FTMDave
Forgto to add PDF

[Nicky Boy]

It does seem that it's been a long running problem.

The Parish Council wrote to Countrywide and got a very dubious response...

Parking Restrictions at Village Medical Centre – Countrywide Parking response to PC letter – Great Denham Parish Council

GREATDENHAMPARISHCOUNCIL.GOV.UK

And more problems...

New parking restrictions causing havoc in Great Denham - Bedford Independent

WWW.BEDFORDINDEPENDENT.CO.UK

---

The introduction of new parking restrictions at a doctors' surgery in Great Denham has caused costly confusion for some residents...

Looks like a few signs around the place advertisoing CAG would be very useful.

Pass the word around Mrs Smith...

[FTMDave]

What you've found out is dynamite Nick.

The correct terms for the initial time-to-read-the-signs period is "consideration period" and for the final time-to-leave-the-car-park period is "grace period".  That's what they're referred to in the various Codes of Practice.  But learning two terms is asking a bit too much of Benita, bless her, and she refers to them both as grace periods.

Anyway, Benita states there is a 5-minute time-to-read-the-signs period as does the medical centre's website - yet on their signs and in their letter to the OP they say there is not.  So which is it?  How is anyone supposed to make sense of such confusion?

But the best bit is that Benita accepts there is a 5-minute time-to-read-the-signs period and a time-to-leave-the-car-park period.  This is 10 minutes in the various Codes of Practice.  When I did maths at school 5 + 10 = 15 so that is the OP in the clear.

It is also a breach of the Equalities Act to not take into consideration that a blue badge holder may need extra time to read the signs and then leave the car park. 

Bad work, Benita.

[FTMDave]

@mrscsmith

There seems to be some sort of war between the medical centre and the pharmacy, considering the info that Nick has found, so I think you have to start to consider what you will do if the landlord doesn't cooperate by Friday.  That is the extended deadline that Countrywide have given you to pay.

Pay £60 and the matter goes away.

Or refuse to pay Countrywide.  We would help you all the way.  The law is on your side with the signage designed for gnomes and the 15-minute consideration & grace periods.  As you've seen, Countrywide won't accept that though and will destroy half the Amazon by sending you letters that are supposed to be threatening.  Eventually they will likely give up as even they know that are on very dodgy ground with a 10-minute stay.  However, they do do court as you have seen.  That is unlikely in your case.  But not impossible, you saw in harni's case that they were so blinded by greed they started two court cases against harni, despite it being quite clear that harni had the law on his side, and of course harni won.

But your call.

[Nicky Boy]

Yes Dave,

Cardiff Devil's thread is heading along the same lines.

The PPC's either don't know the difference between consideration and grace periods, or they're deliberately trying to confuse their victims.

I'll keep my opinion to myself, but either explanation is diabolical!

[mrscsmith]

Still not received no reply from anyone.

After reading all the issues and victims no I dont want to pay Countrywide although it will be a load of stress I would rather fight it. 

Do I have to do anything by Friday or just sit tight and wait please?

Thank you

[Nicky Boy]

It's just a waiting game now to see what they do.

You should read other threads to get the general idea of how things pan out...

[FTMDave]

Of course they are trying to confuse their victims.

Mind you, admitting to the Parish Council that there is a 5-minute period to read the signs and then lying to the OP that there isn't would come back to bite them if they were daft enough to do court.

If you look at their website  https://www.countrywideparking.co.uk/  you can see that they are members of both trade associations, the BPA and the IPC.  So they're bound by both Codes of Practice.  They have admitted that there are 5 minutes to read the signs.  The CoPs are quite clear that there are 10 minutes to leave the car park.  game, set, match to the OP.

The OP should just ignore them now, but obviously update us when their next threat arrives.

      

 

[mrscsmith]

Hi Guys, I havent received anything from anyone. I decided to try and login and see if the ticket could still be paid and the amount has now changed to £140!!!  I have no idea how its got that high and why I have received No correspondence from either the medical centre or Countrywide. Charge Amount: £140.00
Date Issued: 17/11/2023 09:15:56
Site: The Village Medical Centre
Reason for Issue: Failure to Register Vehicle

[dx100uk]

DCA fees...not important 

until/unless you ever get a letter of claim

then comeback here DO NOTHING without checking here FIRST 

dx

[mrscsmith]

I have had a letter from Countrywide today dated 23 Dec, saying 

We are writing to inform you that despite numerous correspondence (Really one letter) your Parking Charge Notice remains unpaid and therefore an additional £40 debt collectors fee has now been added.  This is your final notice to make payment for the outstanding amount with 7 days  of the date of this final notice.  After this date the Parking Charge will be escalated to our debt recovery agents and the outstanding amount will increase to £170.

Obviously I am not going to pay but it is legal they can charge what they like by the week?  No one else seems to be able too.  
I know in the past mortgage companies were banned from charging £40 a letter does the same not apply here?

Thank You 

[Nicky Boy]

They can TRY to charge whatever they want... just like I could send you a bill for every time I write on the forum, but they won't get it.

Also, they've already added debt collection fees, but apparently haven't yet "escalated" to their debt recovery agents!!

Ha ha!