Pensioner Defrauded by bitcoin scammer by phone of a lot of money.

[SOD'EM]

I hope this is in the right place.

My Auntie is 74 years old and is recovering from major surgery.

Although she is not stupid, she has done a stupid thing.

She received a phone call (mobile) from a nice sounding chap who was trying to get her to buy Bitcoin guaranteeing a profit. He phoned every day and gained her trust.

She eventually parted with £250, but within 2 days he rang her back and told her that her investment had more than doubled. He got her to download Anydesk to her phone, and he took it from there. He put £650 in her account and she was really happy.

He persuaded her to reinvest, but to leave the money in the account and he will do the rest.

To cut a long story short, he has taken out 4 large separate loans in her name from sainsbury's, mbna, zopa and nuvuna totalling £70,000.

The minute the funds for the loans were in her account he transferred them out to somewhere else. She now stands to lose her house because of it.

She banks with Natwest, but they are not interested at the moment. She also contacted Action Fraud and the Police and they say they can't help.

Is there anything else she can do?

She lives alone, and after surgery had to rehome her beloved pet, so she was in a very vulnerable situation.

I can't believe she fell for this, but I promised her I would help as best I can, and the people on here have been a massive help in the past. 

Thank You.

[jk2054]

Hi, 

 

Please can you tell me if she filed a complaint with Natwest? If so have they issued a final response letter?

Also you tell me he took out the loan in her name? Just to confirm she did not apply for it herself following his advice?

In terms of being able to help - in short I would say hopefully yes

Also dates for all of the events would be helpful (such as date he called, date each loan was taken etc)

 

 

Edited October 13, 2023 by jk2054

[SOD'EM]

She told Natwest what had happened, but I'm not sure about a final response letter until tomorrow.

Up to now, as far as I am aware, they just told her to contact Action Fraud, who don't seem to want to help at all.

He applied for the loans without her knowing a thing about any of them. But he could do this because he had full

control of her mobile phone, and she didn't realise.

All Loans were taken out around June.

I will get dates as soon as possible. I know they will be important in the long run, but just for now I need to find out,

and hopefully reassure her there is something that can be done. She's devastated to say the least.

Thanks for your reply.

[dx100uk]

if the loans were all funnelled through her Natwest Account and then withdrawn they (natwest ARE responsible under money laundering/Anti Fraud Acts.

these were tightened up upon a couple of years ago and they should have acted to prevent such, esp where there is now high level transactional history

even barclays freeze peoples accounts for +£5k going in/out now.

she is subject to identity fraud 

sadly and i'm not being funny here but, a confused/scammed oap and you are not the best mediums for accurate 3rd party Chinese whispers posts regarding info.

dx

[jk2054]

Hey!

Thanks for that information. 

Firstly, has she contacted sainsbury's, mbna, zopa and nuvuna to explain what's happened? If not, she should do this ASAP. 

How long between the loans being paid into her account and being transferred to the scammers account? instantly, days, weeks etc.

You've told me she banks with natwest, just so I'm clear here, there were NO loans from natwest, only the loans from sainsburys, mbna, zopa and nuvuna were paid into her natwest acc is this right?

Also, you say they aren't interested, did she make a complaint? There should be a letter from southend on sea from a team called fraud complaints and she'll need the ref from that. can you check she has this? if she does then take it to the FOS. They usually uphold id fraud complaints. 

which remote access software was used? some will give you ip connections upon request with a police ref

[jk2054]

Hiya, any updates?

 

Don't want to push you but FOS are pretty tight on timescales for reporting fraudulent loans once recognised so would be helpful to know if that's been done.

[SOD'EM]

Thanks jk2054. The Software she downloaded was Anydesk (it's what most Scammers use nowadays).

She had no loans from Natwest, just the 4 I mentioned.

2 for £20k and 2 for £15k.

Her Bank account must have been getting monitored all the time because all the loans paid into her account and then transferred out were over 2 days.

The Police and Natwest told her to get in touch with Action Fraud, and this is the letter they replied with.

 

 

You recently made a report which we recorded under xxxxxxxxx Home Office Counting Rules set out the circumstances under which we can record a crime and on this occasion the matter you reported to us cannot be classified as a police recorded crime. Home Office Counting Rules for Fraud and Cyber Dependent Crime can be found online at https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/counting-rules-for-recorded-crime. You have indicated within your report that the misuse of your personal details or that of a company trading style played a part in the matter you are reporting. The use of another person’s identity, often referred to as identity theft, is not a police recordable crime. Where the details are used to obtain goods or services, we can only record a crime on behalf of the person or organisation which was defrauded as a result of the misuse of an identity. An example of a situation in which we could record a crime would be where details were used to obtain credit, the use of which left the provider of credit with a financial loss. In these circumstances we would record a crime for the provider of the credit and look to establish if there was scope for the matter to be investigated. Whilst the misuse of your identity cannot be classified as a police recorded crime, we do recognise that identity theft can cause significant distress and inconvenience. For advice and support, please see www.actionfraud.police.uk/fraud_protection/identity_fraud. What happens next? Whilst we have not recorded this matter as a crime, we will still make use of the information you have provided. Information reports are utilised to enrich the overall intelligence picture which assists with the formulation and refinement of prevention strategies. If you have any queries regarding this letter please visit www.actionfraud.police.uk/FAQ. If you would like more information on how to protect yourself from fraud and cyber crime, please see the guidance at www.actionfraud.police.uk/support_for_you. You can also register on our partner website www.actionfraudalert.co.uk to receive email alerts about new and emerging crime types. Thank you again for taking the time to report this matter. All transfers to the Scammers account were sent to a Chase account in the amounts of £20k x 3 and 1 x £10k.  Someone from the same company  Welcome to NuxTrade NUXTRADE.COM NuxTrade is the platform of choice for the modern trader. NuxTrade is where trading crypto, currency, and more, feels good to everybody. It’s that well done. actually tried ringing her 3 days ago, trying the same scam. She thinks it may have even been the same bloke. I'm confused about the Action Fraud reply because her details have obviously been used to obtain credit. She's very confused with all this and it's hard getting info regarding phone calls made by her. It seems to me that Action Fraud are not aware that her details have been used to obtain credit. I'm wondering if I can ring them on her behalf using the reference number they gave me.

 

 

 

[jk2054]

sadly anydesk wont be helpful here 

so I’d say first report to all the loan companies they were taken out without her permission in her identity. explain surgery delayed her notifying you and thus you notifying them

then complain to natwest they should have done more to block the payments. It was irregular for her and they didnt ask her to call them. New payee large numbers etc should have been flagged. DX mentioned a liability for natwest above so be sure to read that if you didnt already

You said natwest referred her to action fraud so send an email to natwest with the action fraud number and explain reported to action fraud and thats the ref they gave you when you reported it

my guess is almost all will come back and say not their issue.

My advice would then be 

CEOmail all of the banks/loan companies to try to get them to sort

Then take unsolved ones to FOS and tell them that it is urgent situation and she may lose her house.

FOS will treat it as a priority case and it should be investigated within a month.

 

Normally FOS are very good at upholding falling victim to scam complaints but some banks write them off. 

 

Others may advise differently, but the main route will likely be the same , loan company + bank complaints then FOS.

 

If you need help with that or need help with responses banks gave then please post here

[SOD'EM]

I have contacted Action Fraud on her behalf through their website, and they have sent me the exact same reply. They are not treating it as a crime.

The letter states that it can only be classed as a crime if her details have been used to obtain CREDIT. Is 4 loans totalling £70k not CREDIT?

I put all the details of the loans in my report to them, yet they still come back with this pathetic reply.

Fuming is not the word.

[jk2054]

Sorry but why are you going back to action fraud?

 

[dx100uk]

and a loan is not credit eh? 

[SOD'EM]

I need Action Fraud to say that a crime has been committed. Then we can contact all the other companies involved. If Action Fraud say no crime has been committed, then I can't see anybody else listening.

It's clearly a Crime, and I need them to acknowledge that.

I think I will ring them

instead.

[jk2054]

No- You just need the ref number that you already have

[SOD'EM]

That's great, but I can't see how any of the companies involved will take it seriously if Action Fraud can't even acknowledge a crime has been committed.

According to Action Fraud, taking loans of £70k out in somebody else's name is not a crime. Go figure

[dx100uk]

that person did not do it, it was identity fraud.

natwest are responsible here under the lack of their application of the anti fraud rules . ...IMHO FOS will eat them for breakfast.

dx

 

[SOD'EM]

Thanks DX. and JK. As Natwest were trying to pass the buck, she ended up putting the phone down on them (not very clever I know).

I've told her to make an appointment with them, and I will go with her.

[dx100uk]

you write with a formal complain that they have broken the Money Laundering rules and the Anti Fraud rules that they MUST abide by under the FCA regulations and bcobs etc etc.

they allowed £70k of external loans to pass into and immediately out of account within a matter of days without questioning the account holder once in person.

[SOD'EM]

Got an appointment with Natwest tomorrow. I will keep you updated afterwards. He opened a Chase account in her name to transfer all the money.

The statements show that it's gone to a business (Xshop Ou xc02 68037526 gbp).

Also, new reply from Action Fraud.

I am sorry to hear you have been a victim of crime. Thank you for taking the time to report to Action Fraud. Your report has been sent to the National Fraud Intelligence Bureau (NFIB) for review.

Experts at the NFIB will examine the information you provide. Where possible, the information is also matched against other available data in order to enrich and corroborate the details of the fraud.

An assessment will be made as to whether there are viable lines of enquiry that would enable a law enforcement body, such as the police service, to investigate. The NFIB aim to provide you with an update on your report within 28 days.

Please be assured that by contacting us you are giving the police vital information they need to protect you and others. The information you have provided may be used to disrupt criminal activity and inform prevention advice and campaigns.

You should keep safe any evidence which you feel may be important. We continuously assess the content of individual and linked crime reports, if you set up an online account, you can use this to add additional information.

That's bit better I suppose.

[jk2054]

I’m sorry and I feel bad for cont going back to it.

You only want a ref number from AF, that’s it.

They’re useless after they give ref

[dx100uk]

5 hours ago, SOD'EM said:

Got an appointment with Natwest tomorrow.

is this in person, phone WHY?

dx

 

[Kyosanto]

In person as per post #16

 

I can't answer as to "WHY" though 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Kyosanto

[dx100uk]

WHY = WHAT HAVE YOU.

record the conversation on your phone they cannot refuse

and dont hold back

they HAVe broken just about every rule in the 2 codes i quoted.

and sending an email or txt to the same phone/device is not a good enough check to see if its actually the account holder.

they should have contacted her in person by PHONE and spoken to her each time.

money laundering rules !!

[jk2054]

do we have an update on this please OP?

[SOD'EM]

Natwest have started a full investigation, but stated that they think they have just been used a Mules, so may not be responsible (I don't really know what they mean by that).

All 4 Loan Companies, have put the accounts on hold until Natwest have finished their investigation.

Letters to FOS should be done this week.

[jk2054]

 

Thank you for the update

firstly for your assurance natwest did break the rules and they are responsible

they are doing their usual not our fault approach

did they give you a timescale for their "investigation"

also bit confused on the bit where you said you are writing to the FOS this week - You'll need natwest to finish before you can appeal to FOS. Also for FOS use their online form not post one, their post one is super slow so you'll need to put that contact on hold unfortunately