I got a Nip 36/30 W.Yorks. SJP failing to provide the licence? **RESOLVED**

[heathertippex]

Hi,

I got a Nip 18/4/23   36/30  West Yorkshire.

I am 95% sure  the form required licence details but not the actual licence.

Last week I received a single justice procedure for failing to provide the licence.  

I do appreciate that they are entitled to do this … however …. I am SURE they changed procedures meaning they could endorse from the submitted licence number abolishing the need to submit the physical licence ..

Does anyone have recent experience / knowledge of this change in particular for West Yorkshire as it might be a force specific role out 

[Man in the middle]

A NIP requires no response. It is simply a notice informing you that a prosecution is being considered.

Are you talking about submitting your licence when accepting a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (£100 and 3 points)?

If so, the requirement to submit your licence when accepting such an offer was discontinued late last year (around the beginning of December, IIRC).

I can't think of any other circumstances where you would have to submit your licence but let me know what has happened and I should be able to tell you how to proceed. 

[Ethel Street]

For  FPN this page on gov.uk confirms what has been said, you don't (normally) need to send your licence, just the licence number.

Penalty points (endorsements): Returning your driving licence for endorsement - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

This solicitor's site confirms the law changed from 1 December 2022, no need to send in physical licence, although it doesn't say what the specific regulations were that made the change.

Stephen Oldham Solicitors | Post in your driving licence when you accept a fixed penalty for speeding (thedrivingsolicitor.co.uk)

 

[Man in the middle]

The specific regulations can be found in Section 54(3)(b) and Section 57A(3) of the Road Traffic Offenders' Act.

If you look here you will see an amendment to those sections dated 30th November 2022:

Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988

WWW.LEGISLATION.GOV.UK

---

An Act to consolidate certain enactments relating to the prosecution and punishment (including the punishment without conviction) of road traffic...

If the OP could tell us exactly what has happened I may be able to assist him to proceed with his SJPN.

[Ethel Street]

Thanks MitM.

So for the OP if you need to refer to relevant law that made the change it was in section 94 of the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022 which was brought into force on 30 November 2022 by the snappily named Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022 (Commencement No. 4 and Transitional Provisions) and Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 (Commencement No. 1) Regulations 2022

This may be a dumb question  @heathertippex but are you absolutely certain you gave your driving licence number with all the details correct when you replied to the Conditional offer for a FPN?

[heathertippex]

Hi people, thanks for your replies.  
 

yes I am 99% sure.  

I paid the penalty £100 online & then filled the form in & sent it back with my driving licence number on it. (Wish I’d taken a photocopy first,,)   The reason I am so sure is that I have forgot to send my licence back in the past .. about 10 years ago & I got a letter reminding me to send it in. On this occasion I remember thinking how much more sensible it is to simply give them my driving licence number. 

When I got the SJP last week I was totally confused (holiday packing!)  I thought it was actually a new format NIP  I didn’t know about.  

I responded to it (considering deadlines) & indicated I wanted to go to court on the basis that it was 5.5 months after an alleged offence.

 At this stage I didn’t marry it up to conditional offer of speeding fine and 3 points I acknowledged and paid on 18/4/23 

[Man in the middle]

Ok, so has your £100 been refunded?

Whether it has or it hasn’t is really of no consequence. However, you should make sure it is returned.

Did you plead guilty or not guilty in response to the SJPN? The process you should have adopted is to plead guilty and in the “mitigating circumstances” section state that you paid the penalty and submitted your DL details as the law requires. You should go on to respectfully request that you are sentenced at the Fixed Penalty level (£100 and 3 points). However, since you have asked for a court hearing, you can do the same when you appear. Magistrates have guidance which suggests such an approach should be taken in your circumstances:

"Where a penalty notice could not be offered or taken up for reasons unconnected with the offence itself, such as administrative difficulties outside the control of the offender, the starting point should be a fine equivalent to the amount of the penalty and no order of costs should be imposed. The offender should not be disadvantaged by the unavailability of the penalty notice in these circumstances."

[heathertippex]

Hi people, thanks for your replies.  
 

yes I am 99% sure.  I paid the penalty £100 online & then filled the form in & sent it back with my driving licence number on it. (Wish I’d taken a photocopy first,,)   The reason I am so sure is that I have forgot to send my licence back in the past .. about 10 years ago & I got a letter reminding me to send it in. On this occasion I rember thinking how much more sensible it is to simply give them my driving licence number. 
When I got the SJP last week I was totally confused (holiday packing!)  I thought it was actually a new format NIP  I didn’t know about.  So I responded to it (considering deadlines) & indicated I wanted to go to court on the basis that it was 5.5 months after an alleged offence.  At this stage I didn’t marry it up to conditional offer of speeding fine Iand 3 points I acknowledged and paid on 18/4/23 

[Ethel Street]

@heathertippex

The post you have just made [Post #8] is a reposting of Post #6 that you made yesterday so it doesn't answer the question asked by Man in the middle in Post #7 regarding how you pleaded to the SJPN.

[heathertippex]

Hi 

on the third page in very small print it says:

conditional offer - paid but licence details not received by HMCTS 

I have no way of proving that I filled in their form and sent it back. Their postal address is a PO Box in Bradford and so recorded delivery cannot be sent. 
 

Indeed this  SJP I received last week states the form can be filled in on line or sent into the address provided - though I cannot find any address provided on the form….

Also why they have waited 5.5 months to raise this ‘alledged oversight’ with me

[Ethel Street]

21 minutes ago, heathertippex said:

conditional offer - paid but licence details not received by HMCTS 

[my bold]

So it looks like they are not, as you first thought, saying you should have sent in the physical licence, but that you didn't provide your driving licence details. Could that mean you did fill in the licence number but made an error and gave an incorrect number, maybe just one wrong digit?

So what is the answer to @Man in the middle question? Did you plead Guilty or Not Guilty to the SJPN?

[heathertippex]

I pleaded not guilty to the SJP 

[Man in the middle]

Quote

I pleaded not guilty to the SJP 

Then you need to contact the court and retract that Not Guilty plea, substituting "guilty" instead. If you maintain a Not Guilty plea you will face a trial and in the highly likely event that you are convicted, you will face sentencing under the normal guidelines with no discount for a guilty plea. This will also be accompanied by a request from the prosecution for a contribution towards their costs and that usually starts at £620. You should also ensure that your request for a hearing which you can attend is maintained otherwise you will be sentenced under the "Single Justice" procedure at a hearing which you cannot attend.

Assuming you appear in court in person you should request that you are sentenced at the fixed penalty level in accordance with the guidance I provided at post #7.   You will have to convince the court that you did indeed comply with the conditions of the fixed penalty offer. It's a pity you did not at least retain a copy of your response. It's always a good idea to keep a copy of anything you send and obtain a free certificate of posting at the Post Office. 

Quote

Also why they have waited 5.5 months to raise this ‘alleged oversight’ with me.

Because the only option open to the police when you have failed to comply with the conditions of their offer of a fixed penalty is to prosecute you via the courts. They have six months (from the date of the offence) to begin proceedings and in many areas they take almost all of that time.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Man in the middle

[heathertippex]

Oh wow …. Ok I will make contact with the courts tomorrow and change my plea. 

Hopefully I am never in this situation again but if I am I will always take a copy and get proof of postage.

I wonder why if they can take payment online and the completion of the single justice form on line then why they don’t do the licence details on line …. Better for the environment , saves money and protects everyone with proof of receipt. 

 Really really appreciate all this help …. I’ll keep you all updated

[dx100uk]

next time remember... come here 1st !!

its not as if you are a newbie to CAG and it's wonderful help!

it's also courteous to result your threads too...not get help and leave things hanging..

 

dx

 

[heathertippex]

Yes it is a great help.   Retail you I will up date on the outcome  of this matter.

 

so sorry I thought I had updated on the other matter when I thanked for all the help and said I’d probably just pay the fine. Probably I could have made that clearer.  Sorry 

[Nicky Boy]

You've still not updated the other thread though...

It's not just a courtesy thing... It helps other users when they come looking for help on CAG.

[heathertippex]

Noted Nicky Boy … I think I have just updated. Thank you again for your help

[heathertippex]

Good morning… just a quick update. 
 

I have had a refund of the £100 into my bank account and there is a court hearing this coming Thursday.. I’m not looking forward to that!!  Any advice or pointers greatly appreciated! 
 

Whilst going through some paperwork I have found that I did take a copy of the completed form which is completed correctly and I definitely sent to them …. though I accept that’s not proof of postage or of them having received the form

[Man in the middle]

Thanks for the update.

Did you contact the court to reverse your guilty plea? If so, simply take a copy of the form you have found and follow the advice I provided in posts #13 and #7.

Do let us know how it goes.

[heathertippex]

Good morning Man in the Middle, 

Yes I did request they change my plea from not guilty to guilty and this time i got proof of postage... But the flipping computer I did the letter on crashed so I cant print off a copy.   

Hopefully if they cant find that one they will accept that I wouldn't send an empty envelop with proof of postage  

I received their summons on referral to court which says a magistrate has decided should be referred to a full court hearing for a case management hearing.   

Why oh why they couldn't have just sent me a letter or email saying they couldn't find it .... I'd have sent them a copy of the form.  That would save all this money and me from having to take time from my already struggling business ( Hospitality  ) 

Hearing is 1 for 1.30 today.. i'll let you know how I get on.  Thanks for all the help and advice

[heathertippex]

Just back from the Magistrates court. 

 The case was made that I was speeding and that I paid the fine but didn't submit the paper form and they asked for costs to be applied.  I said that I paid the fine and did send the form of which I had a copy. 

I added that I was sorry if they couldn't find the form or if they were short staffed but that I did send it.  The magistrates accepted this to be the case immediately and didn't ask to see my copy of the form.

They ordered the original 3 points and the £100 fine but added £40 as a surcharge... which I tried to argue against as I had fulfilled my side of the requirements and have had to take time from work for no fault of my own but they said they are required by law to add it.  Miffed about that on principal but guess I should count it as a win.

Hopefully I will never be in this situation a gain but lessons learnt are to send everything with POP and photocopy/print and save forms and correspondence .

Thank you to everyone who contributed to helping me on this matter

 

[Man in the middle]

Thanks for letting us know. It always helps to get feedback.

I'm surprised at the addition of the surcharge. Yes, it must be imposed by law but the usual way to get round it is to make the fine £72 and the surcharge £28. You could argue that if they accepted that you did comply with the conditions of the offer you should not be disadvantaged at all and there is adequate mechanism for that. Their Legal Advisor (the person sitting in front of them) should have advised them accordingly.

All in all a decent - if slightly incorrect - outcome and appealing against the sentence is probably not worth the hassle. As you say, "lessons learned" (but of course you won't be caught speeding again, will you?  

[dx100uk]

well done

thread title updated.

can you please update this thread. tooo

Speed camera evidence - Speeding and Motoring Offences - Consumer Action Group

thank you