F&F secured loan with Elderbridge (old First Plus/Barclays) - coerced debt and selling house

[Myfamily]

Hi Surfer,

 

As I said before FP have only supplied me with copies of letters dated Feb 2009, Sept 2009 and Feb 2010.

 

I managed to find (in my own records) the letter dated Jan 2008 but they did not supply a copy of that in my SAR, and did not supply the same lettesr that you have in my SAR either!

 

I have lloked through the notes of my account that they supplied and I can't work out from those when my increases or decreases were, so I think I am going to have to write to them and explain that they did not provide all the documentation as part of my SAR - what do you think?

 

Also another development, as part of my court case of which I have a trial date in Oct, I was told that FP would supply copies of all calls from specific dates and they deny that interest was ever sgreed to be frozen. They have not supplied these calls, they have supplied some calls but none confirming either way! Also they have supplied and copy of a call to the Barclaycard helpdesk regarding username for accounts but the customer is not me!!! - breach of Data Protection now??

[Surfer01]

Do the request for the "missing" paperwork as soon as possible. Also In Oct tell the judge that FP failed to supply all documentation as per the original SAR and committed a criminal offence even if they have supply the missing documentation in the meantime. The judge will not be able to do anything about it, but may postpone the case again and give FP a right telling off. Make sure that you have the legislation regarding a SAR to hand. However the crux is that as a result of you having to chase the missing documentation, it has caused you additional stress and worry plus costs.

[citizenB]

I am not sure that they would have committed a criminal offence by not providing documents that they should have done via the SAR, but they have certainly breached the DPA Act.

[steampowered]

A SAR entitles you to documents relating to you, but does not entitle you to ask questions. It may be that there are no documents with the calculations you are after.

 

Best to write to the other side's solicitors and ask them to clarify about the calculations and incomplete disclosure of calls.

[Myfamily]

HI Steampowered,

 

Not sure if you're talking to Surfer or me, but I thought that as part of the SAR copies of all documents should be sent so they should have sent me copies of letter regarding the increase in interest.

[steampowered]

hi,

Yes this is right. A SAR entitles you to all 'personal data', so you should be getting copies of letters. The point I am trying to make is that a SAR will only get you documents which already exist and can't be used to force them to provide information (such as calculations not already set out in existing letters). This may not be a problem just something to bear in mind when getting back to the other side.

[Surfer01]

You can also use a SAR to request copies of transcripts of all phone calls between FP and yourself including the initial and original calls. This can be supplied as files, DVD or as a written transcript. As per FOS you can request copies of calculations pertaining to your data in order for them to show how they reached a specific figure.

[jax1066]

Hello the website has been reinstated if you need to contact someone.

[Suzyhall9024]

I have just managed to get back onto the website it is up and running again however I posted on there a week or so ago and not had any response x

[Myfamily]

Hi suzy, thanks for replying, im back on the old website and people are there, but maybe not everyone, most probably thought that the site would never come back! Im afraid I cant help you but sounds like the usual stuff from FP. Hope all goes ok for you.

 small update, I have sent off my witness statement and included the details of the fraudulent phone call that FP provided. I have been told that I could make a part 36 offer, I am the defendant and I can't work out how this would work. Iwant to pay £500 per month for 213 months which would be a total of £106,500. I have already paid approx £66,000 so in total they would have had £166,500 on a £100,00 loan.

Does anyone know how this works? Can I make this request?

Sorry, my numbers didn't add up there! it would be £172,500 paid at the end of the term, So that is £72,500 in interest. I've think that works out to about 5% interest since 2006 till the end of the term (over 25 years).

The payments would have been about £585 per month. So my question is How can I make this offer?, 5% seems reasonable to me, I would be willing to stretch to £585, I have 213 months left. I'm just confused by the figures, I have paid over £66,000 and my balance is still £106,000 (obviously including arrears).

Can anyone help me here?

First of all - Surfer - this is the info you wanted - interest rates changes since loan inception.

9.4% at start of loan

9.9% - 14/12/2006

10.20% - 20/02/2007

10.70% - 25/04/2007

11.00% - 25/07/2007

11.3% - 17/01/2008

10.20% - 02/03/2008

10.70% - 21/05/2008

11.00% - 13/08/2008

10.20% - 02/03/2009

11.00% - Sept 2009

10.20% - Feb 2010. And no change ever since!

Well trial is coming up next week. Just had the usual letter from Eversheds in response to my witness statement I sent to them a few weeks ago.

They have said that they think I have no valid defence and their client is entitled to possession etc, etc.

They state that it was never agreed that interest would be frozen/suspended. and that their client does not consider that any of the terms of the contract are unfair.

They tell me at least 3 times in the letter that If I am willing to accept their clients position, then costs will be less and their client may consider suspended possession etc!

I got this letter last week. I have no intention of dropping it now. This is the third time they've written such a letter to scare me! So anyway strangely now I get a phone call from Eversheds asking if I have considered their letter.

I said I have but I have no intention of backing down now - she cheekily asked me if I didn't understand the wording!! I told her I did understand. She said that I stated on my last witness statement that interest was suspended when I had previously said frozen (what difference this make - I don't know) but I explained that the phone call she is referring to was in 2011 I cannot remember exact wording as I did not record it and apparently neither did FP!!

I explained that regardless of this argument which I nor FP can provide a phone call proof of - I am happy to proceed to Trial as I believe that the advertising at the time of the loan was misleading and the contract is unfair.

She seemed disappointed

She stated that they are supposed to be lodging and serving trial bundles in accordance with CPR39.5.

The court directions only state the claimant needs to do this (which is FP) but at the end it states that parties are to send to the court and to the other party at least 3 days before the trial their legal submissions and copies of any legislation and authorities on which they rely.

Can you just let me know what exactly that means to me?? I have already served the witness statement and supporting docs including the unfair terms legislation, should I be sending more?

Also I told Eversheds that I have now worked out, what my balance and interest rate would have been had FP followed the BOE rates throughout the loan.

My balance would be £72,000 and interest rate would be 5.06% so payments would be £511 per month for the rest of the term. I want to send this to Eversheds as a kind of offer, in the same way that they have been trying to get me to back down, I want to give them the chance to drop this and agree to my payment proposal, if that makes sense!

Can anyone advise??

[AndyOrch]

"She stated that they are supposed to be lodging and serving trial bundles in accordance with CPR39.5.

 

The court directions only state the claimant needs to do this (which is FP) but at the end it states that parties are to send to the court and to the other party at least 3 days before the trial their legal submissions and copies of any legislation and authorities on which they rely.

 

Can you just let me know what exactly that means to me?? I have already served the witness statement and supporting docs including the unfair terms legislation, should I be sending more? "

 

http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part39

 

Trial bundles

 

CPR39.5

 

(1) Unless the court orders otherwise, the claimant must file a trial bundle containing documents required by –

(a) a relevant practice direction; and

(b) any court order.

(2) The claimant must file the trial bundle not more than 7 days and not less than 3 days before the start of the trial.

[Surfer01]

I think that the only way to hit them is by using Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts, but this is just my opinion. We were also given the impression that the interest rate could go up or down with the BoE rates.

This was very misleading, but not sure how it can be proved as they do nto record that part of the sales pitch. I am not sure if a sworn affidavit to that affect is admissable in a court of law.

[DonkeyB]

I think you should certainly be making a straight offer to repay on the terms you describe, giving the reasons. Don’t do it on a WP basis, as you want to be able to show the court you have tried to settle the case based on what a ‘fair ’ agreement would have been, and follow the ‘overriding objective’, which is to not waste the court’s time and keep costs down.

[Myfamily]

HI DonkeyB,

 

Yes, that's what I want to do, I want to make them an offer based on what the rates should have been if they had followed the BOE rates as their advertising suggested that they did. My rate at the beginning was 9.06% which was 4.56% above the base rate, so I have calculated each month what the rate should have been and what was paid, I want to be able to show that court that I have made a reasonable offer.

 

Can you or anyone help me draft a letter to this effect?? I have all the details but I'm just not sure how to word the opening statement if that make any sense? I really need to get this sent today as the trial is next week, need to give them time to consider my offer.

[DonkeyB]

One quick query – are you still paying them something towards the debt? Would have been a good idea if you’d continued with any agreed payment.

 

To do a letter properly, I’d need to go back through the thread, but I think an outline would be as follows:

 

1. You maintain your defence that you were misled when you took out the loan, and that this headline condition should have been clearly explained to you – it was not.

 

2. However... in the interests of the overriding objective... you believe that had the rate been set fairly, and set as you had been led to believe it would, in correlation with the BoF BR, then you would have been due to make payments on the following basis (list your calculations).

 

3. Then state the ongoing basis on which you would be prepared to pay on the basis of a FAIR agreement that could be formalised by way of a Tomlin order (or similar).

and show your calculations. Make it clear how much you will eventually repay, inc the APR.

 

4. Make it clear that this is the only offer you will make in regard to this case, and that if they fail to accept your fair offer, you will have no choice but to defend yourselves in court.

 

5. Point out that such an agreement would benefit both parties long-term.

 

6. Demand a response by XXXX, pointing out that you trust you WILL receive a prompt response (having never received a response from fair offers you have previously made in writing directly to their client – rub it in a bit, good to show a judge if they refuse).

 

 

Fill in the extra detail you have – perhaps post your letter back here for us to comment on?

[Myfamily]

Hi Donkey,

Yes I am paying £500 per month (without fail) which I offered back in Oct last year! My new offer would be £11 more which would be great!.

I am running out of time here, would it be sensible to e-mail my offer to the solicitors? otherwise I don't think they will have enough time!

I'm sorry regarding your point 2, I have done calculations based on the the variable rate IF FP had followed the BOE rate.

These calculations are showing the payment I actually made not the ones I should have made, so technically I was overpaying. Does that make sense. If it helps I can PM you the details that might be a bit clearer?

Thanks

[DonkeyB]

You seem to be in control of the figures – if they refuse an offer like this, they are idiots, because accepting it means they will not have to put their very dodgy T&Cs under the microscope.

 

I would send by email and also backed up by recorded delivery.

 

Most judges are not keen to roll over on repossession cases like this, where there is a clear dispute and where repayments are being made. A good judge would look very hard at the T&Cs, and such a case could get messy.

[Myfamily]

Sorry I don't mean to be a pain!!

 

I think I need to amaned this bit " 2. However... in the interests of the overriding objective... you believe that had the rate been set fairly, and set as you had been led to believe it would, in correlation with the BoF BR, then you would have been due to make payments on the following basis (list your calculations)." my calculations show what I actually did pay and what the balance should be, so I'm not sure this bit make sense - I'm realy sorry I'm being awkward!!

[DonkeyB]

What I mean is that you should adjust ALL your payments from inception of the loan to reflect the agreement you believed you had.

[Myfamily]

Oh dear I don't know how to do that, I had a Financial adviser do the calculation for me! it shows the balance at the beginning and then each month he has worked out what the interest should have been on the balance for that month and then the payment that I made and the balance after it - hope that makes sense??

 

So basically I am saying that I have overpaid and now my balance should be a lot less than what they say. but I'm appy to leave that and pay the outstanding £72,000 at 5.06 (4.56% above the BOE rate) from now on.

 

I don't know if I'm making sense or if I'm being a bit stupid today (wouldn't be the first time!!) but can I'm worried that I'll confuse the poor solicitors

[DonkeyB]

Exactly – if you accept all the previous interest rate rises, it means you accept the contract – your defence is that you don’t accept it because it was unfair. If you want to make a proposal based on the fact that you accept the overpayments, but will now pay at a fair rate, then you need to make clear that your acceptance of the earlier rates is purely a gesture of goodwill, not an acceptance of their T&Cs.

 

What did the financial adviser think the o/s balance should be?

[Myfamily]

Ah, o.k.that makes sense to me and that's what I would like to do really, so can I add somewhere that basically I have been overpaying for a long time but I am willing to let that go (gesture of goodwill etc) but that deosn't mean that I accept their T & C's just that after 7 years I don't really want to start again my financial advisor says the balance should now be £72,057 and with 212 months left that would be £511 per month at a rate of 5.06%

 

Can you help me with a statment to make the above totally clear!?

[DonkeyB]

Well, it sounds like your FA has already done the calculation I suggested anyway.

 

What do they reckon the balance is? (Sorry, too lazy to look back over...)

[Myfamily]

they say it's £104,000!

[DonkeyB]

In which case, there’s no need to mention the ‘goodwill’ aspect, because you have already revised the payments and balance based on what you believe is the ‘fair’ contract.

 

They would be foolish to refuse your offer, long term. If, as you say, your property is only worth £60k, the question is whether they fall £12k short or £44k short – long term they will make a lot more.

 

While many banks and building societies have gotten round unexpected rate rises on supposed ‘trackers’ by quoting the very small print, their wording has been clear (if well hidden), so I think your lot still would not like the fairness (or not) of their contract examining. But, sadly, they will have counsel and a raft of solicitors on hand, and the judge lottery awaits...

 

I would also suggest doing as much research into this outfit’s background and practices as possible.