Seahorse v Cabot

[elizabeth1]

I have looked into the way that data controllers have to register themselves and have indicated on another thread that they may be forced to do business this way. When these companies register as data controllers they have to state that they will process data to 'purchase debt' and to 'collect debt on behalf of a third party'. I do not think they can process data to collect data they have purchased themselves.

I got this from the Information Commissioner website. If this is true is it something we can use to our advantage? Or is it something we are ignoring?

 

Newborn

 

 

Well surely if this were true it would be a conflict of interests to do both parts of the work?

 

But if this is so - it does explain why Kings Hill buy the alleged debts and process the Data part - THEN Cabot Europe collect the money part of the alleged debts. However, the fact that it's the same Directors and buildings address shows it's all same group of companies - like the Morley Ltd part set up as a Loan company etc.. - it's all the same people operating the businesses?

[FANTASY CHARGES]

just a bit of info we came across ( the old news is there for newer potential "club members")

 

 

 

Cabot Financial

 

 

Cabot Financial is planning to expand the workforce at its debt purchasing business in West Malling, Kent, from 330 to 450 over the next two years. 24-Aug-2007

 

Cabot Financial is to set up a new 43,000 sq ft office at the Kings Hill business park in Kent in mid-2007. 12-Sep-2006

 

Cabot Financial, the debt purchasing company with more than 300 staff, has been acquired by Nikko Principal Investments for £275m. 11-Apr-2006

 

Cabot Financial, the debt collection agency valued at £250m, has appointed investment bank Lexicon Partners to find a buyer for the company. 20-Oct-2005

 

Cabot Financial is to open a debt collection call centre in Bradford in July, and the initial 40-strong workforce will eventually increase to 250. 17-Jun-2004

Cabot Financial, the provider of consumer debt services, is to undergo a £100m management buy-out backed by Barclays Private Equity. 02-Feb-2004

[andrew1]

just a bit of info we came across ( the old news is there for newer potential "club members")

 

"We" Fantasy? - what have you got there - a production line?

[Seahorse]

The Bradford centre apparently didn't work out too well. I wonder how many ex employees are now being chased for debts by Cabot as a result of being SACKED by Cabot.

 

There must be a small element of irony in there somewhere.

[enaid]

Sorry to but in lol, just to say love the avatar seahorse very errrrrrrr festive, yes I think that's the right word. Enaid x

[Seahorse]

But in? Enaid??? Neverrrrr. Always welcome my leetle roast turkey.

 

OOPS. I'd better pop "across the road" to see how everyone is doing over there.

[Newborn]

Further to my earlier comments on data processing etc. I wrote to Experian to get the exact name, address and company number of the company that posted my 2 Cabot defaults. Their reply was that they could not tell which company it was. Now if they are 2 data controllers with 2 different companies surely a data controller such as Experian should know exactly who processed my data .... or? This is probably the same for everyone involved.

 

Newborn

[tbern123]

Hello Newborn...

 

It is Cabot Financial (Europe) ltd that acts as Data Controller and submits information to the credit reference agencies.

 

Cabot Financial (UK) (a.k.a Kings Hill) are registered with the Information Commissioners Office ut as no one actually works for this company the don't process any data. I have several letters and a response from Cabot to my court claim confirming that all data is submitted directly to and only processed by (europe)

[Newborn]

Thanks very much Tbern,

 

But this is where my brain goes a bit mushy.

 

The IC only allows a company to register to process data to ‘purchase debt’ and to process data to ‘recover debt for a THIRD PARTY’. This is all on the IC website under notification and the register of data controllers. It seems quite strictly laid out.

 

Either that or Cabot have registered themselves that way.

 

This means that, as I read it, a company cannot process data to ‘purchase debt for a THIRD PARTY‘, or to process data to ‘recover debt it has bought ITSELF‘.

 

So technically, Cabot (UK) is shown as the purchaser and so registers the default, they then liaise with Cabot (Europe) to recover the debt for them. Cabot have set this up I suspect so as to comply with the IC requirements.

 

But, as you’ve so rightly said, Cabot (UK) don’t employ people so cannot actually physically process data at all. That means that Cabot (Europe) must be processing data with an OC to purchase the debt for Cabot (UK) and then to register the default with the CRA. But the IC notification permissions do not allow a company to ‘process data to purchase debt for a THIRD PARTY’. Cabot’s quest for cost cutting (ie 2 companies, 1 set of staff) may well have caused them to overlook this little nicety.

 

Does this not mean that Cabot (Europe) are acting outside of the IC notification, if not the data protection act? In fact how far does this go back? Maybe they all do it.

 

I checked the IC website again today but the register is down for

maintenance.

 

Would really appreciate someone with data protection knowledge to follow my steps through the IC website etc.

 

Newborn

[pmhcfc]

 

Does this not mean that Cabot (Europe) are acting outside of the Information Commissioner notification, if not the data protection act? In fact how far does this go back? Maybe they all do it.

 

Newborn

 

Ive spoken (in the past) to the ICO about this and according to them (the ICO) it's no big deal if this has happened- Cabot would just say "Oh sorry, we forgot to register properly etc" and the register would get updated. The big point is they are registered, not what particular points they are registered to perform.

[Seahorse]

Interesting though. I wasn't aware that if you purchase a debt, you are not entitled to process that data. I'm not sure it makes sense, but there must be reasons.

 

And to think I called Cabot a twisty bunch of feckers. Sorry Cabot.

[FANTASY CHARGES]

Thanks very much Tbern,

 

But this is where my brain goes a bit mushy.

 

The Information Commissioner only allows a company to register to process data to ‘purchase debt’ and to process data to ‘recover debt for a THIRD PARTY’. This is all on the Information Commissioner website under notification and the register of data controllers. It seems quite strictly laid out.

 

Either that or Cabot have registered themselves that way.

 

This means that, as I read it, a company cannot process data to ‘purchase debt for a THIRD PARTY‘, or to process data to ‘recover debt it has bought ITSELF‘.

 

So technically, Cabot (UK) is shown as the purchaser and so registers the default, they then liaise with Cabot (Europe) to recover the debt for them. Cabot have set this up I suspect so as to comply with the Information Commissioner requirements.

 

But, as you’ve so rightly said, Cabot (UK) don’t employ people so cannot actually physically process data at all. That means that Cabot (Europe) must be processing data with an OC to purchase the debt for Cabot (UK) and then to register the default with the CRA. But the Information Commissioner notification permissions do not allow a company to ‘process data to purchase debt for a THIRD PARTY’. Cabot’s quest for cost cutting (ie 2 companies, 1 set of staff) may well have caused them to overlook this little nicety.

 

Does this not mean that Cabot (Europe) are acting outside of the Information Commissioner notification, if not the data protection act? In fact how far does this go back? Maybe they all do it.

 

I checked the Information Commissioner website again today but the register is down for

maintenance.

 

Would really appreciate someone with data protection knowledge to follow my steps through the Information Commissioner website etc.

 

Newborn

 

 

FC WAS reading the two complex cases

 

mbna v vat people (and the appeal)

 

and when he read 77 the bit about this company which is believed to be a "bare trust" came to mind ---- no employees

 

 

yet a board meeting

 

so question 1 does this "marie celeste" cabot company have board meetings

and question 2 ...... could it be some form of charitable stroke bare trust ???

 

just asking ------ deliberately set up in such a way to "block " data requests ?????????

 

 

==========================

77 We now turn to deal with the arrangements for the management of CCSE and Deva One Limited in Jersey. Both, as we have mentioned, were incorporated and have registered offices in Jersey, are owned by a Jersey trust, and have directors resident and domiciled in Jersey. Board meetings are held in Jersey. Neither has any employees, and CCSE is formally prohibited by the agreements from having any. Although Deva One Limited undertakes the tasks of issuing the loan notes and passing on payments of principal and interest, and is involved in the receipt of payments from CCSE and their return as we have described, its role is largely passive, and the focus of the debate before us was on CCSE's role and its management. mbna's position is that the tasks which CCSE is required to undertake, of entering into the various contracts, of accepting MBNA's offers of assignments, even if only on the instructions of Deutsche, and of processing the daily and monthly instructions for the allocation of money are tasks of substance and are carried out in Jersey. BCTC's employees execute the daily and monthly instructions, and report at regular intervals at formal, minuted board meetings. BCTC's staff cannot simply follow the instructions; they have to be checked for accuracy. Mr Hollywood also emphasised that the directors' role of ensuring that CCSE's activities, as well as those of the Investor Beneficiaries, are lawful and in accordance with the agreements is no mere formality. If MBNA were to become insolvent CCSE's position would change fundamentally, since it would be required to protect the investors' interests against any possible claim by MBNA's administrator or receiver and would no longer be able to rely on MBNA's servicing the Designated Accounts; the possibility might be remote, but it is real and its existence demonstrates that CCSE is not a mere instrument of MBNA compelled to carry out its instructions regardless. (CCSE's own assets, limited though they are, are protected in the event of MBNA's insolvency.)

 

 

 

 

==========================

[elizabeth1]

Hello Newborn...

 

It is Cabot Financial (Europe) ltd that acts as Data Controller and submits information to the credit reference agencies.

 

Cabot Financial (UK) (a.k.a Kings Hill) are registered with the Information Commissioners Office ut as no one actually works for this company the don't process any data. I have several letters and a response from Cabot to my court claim confirming that all data is submitted directly to and only processed by (europe)

 

Yes this is interesting because it's Kings Hill No1 who do the reports to CRA's in my hubbies case. So they are a Data Controller?

[andrew1]

FC WAS reading the two complex cases

 

mbna v vat people (and the appeal)

 

and when he read 77 the bit about this company which is believed to be a "bare trust" came to mind ---- no employees

 

 

yet a board meeting

 

so question 1 does this "marie celeste" cabot company have board meetings

and question 2 ...... could it be some form of charitable stroke bare trust ???

 

just asking ------ deliberately set up in such a way to "block " data requests ?????????

 

 

 

==========================

 

Fantasy of course they can have board meetings, they have the directors but no ' staff' - plebs to you and me who love going on facebook and myspace to show all the naughty things they get up to and that they fancy Seahorse.

 

No no, the serious stuff is now shifting away from Cabot Financial (UK)Ltd aka kingshill and switching to Cabot Financial 'Group' Ltd and they appear to be buying quite a bit. I'm more interested in hearing how many people have their defaults registered by the Group now rather than UK - got to keep up on these things if you gonna put the bullets for others to fire ole chap. Couple more Directors too: Peter Gissel, Simon Oakland and Dominic Geer plus the normal three Ronnies - Maynard, Crawford and Randal

 

Got some strange mix of backgrounds those other three, everything from the Royal Opera House to Combustion Engines - a lot of high pressure air and song and dance to add to the comedy show. You seem to be slipping behind at present too if you don't mind me saying so - seems like you are in a time warp - where we have already been a couple of months back - you been asleep or something? I love all your news, but TVAM closed down a long while back - need some more reporters, plenty of good sleuths in the Cabot Fan Club looking for a job you know there's hundreds of us

 

 

Sarah

[FANTASY CHARGES]

ok

 

this thread

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-consumer-issues/109003-securisation-what-how-affects.html

 

has some a new gigantic post

 

it is important to read the original case

 

then the appeal by mbna against the vat

 

have highlighted some interesting facts on it

[andrew1]

Fantasy, it's 23.55, the thread is enormous, so is the post, informative but loooong - BUT, I've already read it! - you see - you have at least one fan! Now I'm off to bed - nitey nite!

[Seahorse]

OK, I'e had a response from the ICO saying my complaint against Cabot has been alocated to a case worker. Nice one! And today I've had a reply from the CSA in response to my complaint against Cabot too. Let's see if it was worthwhile, shall we?

 

Please accept my apologies for the delay in responding to your complaint.

 

I am in receipt of correspondence from CSA member Capquest Debt Recovery in reponse to your complaint, what the feck have Capquest got to do with it? which I have enclosed for your information.

 

From the information provided it would appear that Cabot Financial (Europe) Ltd acted in accordance with the guidlines set by the Association and I connot see what further action the Association can take to assist you. We have therefore closed the complaint accordingly. Ah, yes. I'm a lying git, and Cabot are squeaky clean, so they must be telling the truth.

 

We will, however, continue to closely monitor the actions of CAbot Financial (Europe) Ltd, through the official CSA Complaint Procedure, to ensure their compliance to the guidlines issued by the Association. Of course you will. I'm just off for a sandwich made of green cheese. Moon Cheese, I think they call it.

 

Complaints received are an essential part of the monitoring of the compliance of our members to the CSA Code of Practice and on behalf of the Association I would like to thank you for bringing the matter to our attention.

 

Yours Sincerely,

 

Claire Aynsley

 

So there you have it. On the face of it, a waste of time. But at least I can tell a judge that I tried. And it sounds a bit like an invitation ofr everyone with concerns about the way Cabot work, to get a complaint in. GO ON THEN, EVERYBODY. MAKE HER DAY!!!!

 

I'll be back in a mo with Cabot's response.

[andrew1]

OK, I'e had a response from the Information Commissioners Office saying my complaint against Cabot has been alocated to a case worker. Nice one! And today I've had a reply from the CSA in response to my complaint against Cabot too. Let's see if it was worthwhile, shall we?

 

 

 

So there you have it. On the face of it, a waste of time. But at least I can tell a judge that I tried. And it sounds a bit like an invitation ofr everyone with concerns about the way Cabot work, to get a complaint in. GO ON THEN, EVERYBODY. MAKE HER DAY!!!!

 

I'll be back in a mo with Cabot's response.

 

 

This, no doubt is one of those standard letters that everyone who complains about a DCA gets, it just that the delightful Ms Aynsley forgot to remove the Capquest name from the mail merge field. It's a disgraceful response, which as you say says nothing, admits nothing, cares nothing, wants to do nothing, and will do NOTHING as she has already closed the file... that's what one expects from a self regulated industry - the regulators are bad enough, but boys and girls clubs are a hundred times worse. huh!

 

 

Go on Ms Aynsley, file it under Capquest !

Sarah

[Seahorse]

OK, here's Cabot's fairy story to the CSA...

 

I refer to the aforementioned and your letter received in this office on 16th November 2007.

 

We regret that Mr Seahorse has had cause to complain to the CSA about Cabot Financial (Europe) Limited ("Cabot"). Notwithstanding, we believe Mr Seahorse's arguments are unfounded and should commence payments towards the outstanding debt for the reasons below.

 

Firstly, may I state that Cabot has made several attempts to clarify matters regarding Mr Seahorse's ongoing dispute and we have set out our final position on several occasions. Except your final position is nonsense. But do go on. We have also provided Mr Seahorse with all information relationg to his account which we have received from Barclaycard. Which has only served to strengthen my arguement.

 

The Cabot Financial Group Eh? Surely you mean, Cabot Financial (UK) Ltd? purchased Mr Seahorse's account from Barclaycard (the original lender) on or about 29th November 2006, What do yo mean, "on or about"? Aren't you sure? which was therefore an assignment of Mr Seahorse's account to the Cabot Financial Group. No, no,, no... The assignment of the account took place in accordance with the terms and conditions of the credit agreement which Mr Seahorse originally signed and agreed to with Barclaycard. Except there WAS no account The Cabot Financial Group, Oh, dear...the assignee of Mr Seahorse's account, is entitled to collect the outstanding balance on the account and also to enforce the original terms of the credit agreement. Yes you are... if there is an agreement in place. WHich there never was.

 

Cabot initially contacted Mr Seahorse in December 2006 by sending a notice of assignment No, you didn't and contacting Mr Seahorse by telephone. Mr Seahorse then contacted Cabot to dispute his account. Since the dispute, Cabot has supplied Mr Seahorse a copy of the credit agreement, No you haven't. You set me a copy of an APPLICATION FORM which he signed, statements from Barclaycard and Cabot and terms and conditions relevant to Mr Seahorse's account Which T&C's, specifically prohibit Barclaycard from sharing my data without asking me first and also correspondence that Cabot has obtained from the original lender, Barclaycard. What other correspondence?

 

In respect of Mr Seahorse's concerns regarding the processing of his personal data, Mr Seahorse has been advised that upon legal assignment of his account to the Cabot Financial Group, his personal data and behaviour in relation to his account would have passed from Barclaycard to Cabot Financial (Europe) Limited in order to process Mr Seahorse's details on behalf of the Cabot Financial Group. Mr Seahorse has previously been advised that Barclaycard can legally transfer all data relating to his account, including personal data in order to perform the rights under the agreement, without the need for consent, which is confirmed in the original terms of the credit agreement and under the Data Protection Act 1998, more specifically Schedule 2. No. The APPLICATION FORM and T&C's PROHIBIT Barclaycard from passing on my data. And as the figure Barclaycard said I defaulted on was erroneous, your continued processing of my data is prejudicial to me and unwarranted.

 

Cabot has at all times acted appropriately and in accordance with relevant legislation, regulations, codes of practice and guidance applicable to the industry. Pfffftttt... For the avoidance of doubt, Cabot has at all times assisted Mr Seahorse in providing information and clarification on all matters on numerous occasions. We have also since the dispute not pursued any collection in accordance with the Codes of Practice unless it was advised in correspondence. You haven't pursued any collection because you know full well you don't have a leg to stand on.

 

We are srongly of the opinion that Mr Seahorse has no valid grounds of dispute and should start making payments towards his account. Not a hope in hell, I'm afraid.

 

I trust our response has clarified this matter. However, if you have any further queries please do not hesitate to contact me on 01732 775102. The Customer Assurance Department is open 9.00am - 5.00pm Monday to Fiday.

 

Yours Sincerely,

 

Jane Rodemark

Customer Assurance Team Leader

 

So there you have it. More nonsense from the masters of nonsense. Let's see what the ICO can do. They're Cabot's last chance of avoiding court.

[debt_mountain]

That letter sounds more like it came from Cabot than an "independant" body.

[spamheed]

Self regulation is a blast isn't it.

 

If you complain about me, I will consider my own actions then issue a rebuttal, but only after due consideration

 

What a joke

[FANTASY CHARGES]

MR SEAHORSE this alleged application form can you refresh our memories what is the date on it ; the data protection act 1998 did not come into operation until 2000 it is believed

 

The assignment of the account took place in accordance with the terms and conditions of the credit agreement which Mr Seahorse originally signed and agreed to with Barclaycard

have they produced the original t & C - which as we know tend to be on the reverse.

[Seahorse]

I thought I'd better tell Ms Aynsley, Jayne, Willem and Ken what I think of their response. Here's the email I've just sent her.

 

Dear Ms Aynsley

Your Ref. 1644/2007

Thank you for your letter received today, 13 December 2007, in which you indicate that you have closed the file on this complaint.

Unfortunately, I must tell you that the contents have merely confirmed to me what I have long suspected: the CSA Complaint Procedure is nothing more than window dressing on the part of the CSA membership.

I was almost prepared to accept that your response was an individual reply to me. However it is my belief that it is nothing more than a standard template, dragged out for generic use once a company has responded to a complaint. I base this belief on the fact that you forgot to change the company name from Capquest Debt Recovery to Cabot Financial (Europe) Limited in the template. I am a little disappointed about that, as it shows a remarkable lapse in professionalism from your department.

Despite the above, I feel I must respond to Cabot’s reply.

Cabot have, on numerous occasions, been advised that the “legal” assignment of my Barclaycard account does not reflect the true balance of my account at the time of assignment. Further, Cabot are fully aware that the document they describe as a Credit Agreement is, in actual fact, a pre-contractual application form, without prescribed terms, or any terms and conditions. Further, the application form had an opt-out if I wished to prevent my personal data from being shared, which was my wish at the time of application, and remains so. In addition, the terms and conditions which Barclaycard and Cabot claim to have been in force at the time of my application, quite clearly state that Barclaycard will not share my data without asking my permission. Barclaycard did, at no time, seek any such permission.

Therefore, my interpretation is, Barclaycard had no right to transfer my data to any company within the Cabot Financial Group. Cabot’s persistent insistence in denying the obvious is frustrating at best, and highly prejudicial at worst.

However, as I really expected nothing to come of my complaint via the CSA, I am not at all surprised by your response. You should be aware that I have also asked the Information Commissioners Office to investigate what I consider to be Cabot’s breaches of the Data Protection Act 1998, and my complaint has now been allocated to a case officer. I trust that Cabot will take that rather more seriously than they have to the CSA’s “Have you been a naughty boy?” approach to complaints against its membership.

Unless you feel that you have anything substantive to add, I do not require any further reply in response to this complaint.

Yours Sincerely,

Seahorse

[Seahorse]

FC, it doesn't matter. The T&C which they FINALLY came up with, I am very happy for them to show in evidence. They say that Barclaycard will not share my data AT ALL unless they ask, and get, my permission first.

 

Another catch 22 for Cabot, methinks.

 

Oh, and they'd have been hard pushed to get any T&C's on the reverse. It was a self sealing mailer, with their address on the back.

[FANTASY CHARGES]

anyhow thats £400 its cost "Scabot" : more please. "every little helps"