Evans Halshaw/Halifax car finance - car purchased Apr 22 engine replaced Nov22 Faulty Turbo ***Resolved with Compensation from Finance Company***

[Martin244]

Hi that’s why I came here, I don’t know what I’m to do. 
I have raised the complaint with Halifax, explained the issues - over the telephone. They asked me to send proof of the engine replacement and the email received from evans Halshaw stating that I now need a new turbo and the costs which I sent over to them by email.

 

I have had the Astra since April 2022, bought with 9 months left of the manufactured warranty of 3 years. When i picked the car up I was excited new car and all that but when I looked at the logbook noticed the car hadn’t been serviced since October 2020 despite them telling me it had a full service history and that they would service the car before I picked it up.

I contacted evans Halshaw to complain ref the service and they booked the car in may 2022 to service- 1 day. September 2022 had issues getting car into 1st gear contacted evans Halshaw who booked car in for testing. They had the car on the 14th October, they then rang me on oct 16th stating the car needed new engine and the work was done i picked the car back up early November. They gave me a courtesy car on the 16th October which I returned when I got the Astra back. 
Now the turbo issues

[BankFodder]

Thank you. I think we understood all that but you haven't addressed the question as to how much untroubled use have you had from it.

 

Also, I'm very surprised to learn that apparently the finance company didn't know about the engine replacement.

You say that it hadn't been properly serviced despite claims by the dealer. Do you have evidence of these claims and writing – full service history?

[BankFodder]

Also you haven't addressed my question as to whether given all the new parts, you would prefer to keep the car

[Martin244]

Hi sorry I must have misunderstood your question. 
down time for me not been able to drive the car was 1 day in May 2022

15 days October 2022 but I was given a courtesy car for 13 of these days.

I don’t have any proof that they sold the car with a full service history, I have contacted auto trader to ask for the advert details from April last year and they’ve sent me what they had but I’m not sure how to upload that onto here

[BankFodder]

Click on the link – upload

[Martin244]

My preference would be to reject the car but if they’d replace the turbo then I’d be happy.

I’ve lost a great deal of confidence in the car, given the short time I’ve had it to have needed a new engine and now a turbo.  
 

 

[BankFodder]

I can certainly understand your lack of confidence. On the other hand, you are effectively getting a vehicle with many important brand-new parts.

One viewpoint is that you have done very well because you bought a second-hand vehicle – at a second-hand price and now it has been fitted with a brand-new engine and may also be fitted with a brand-new turbo.

That is pretty good going in my book.
I don't think you would be entitled to reject the car although the finance company may propose that and it will be up to you to accept. I don't think you are in a position to insist.

Also, if they accepted your rejection they may well propose a reduction for the over 12 months use that you have had from it and this is something you would have to accept. You would be entitled to have the 12 months use of the car free of charge.

You should bear in mind also that if you did reject the vehicle and received a payment you would then be faced with the business of getting another vehicle and it certainly wouldn't have a new engine or a new turbo and who knows what other problems could emerge.

If you stuck with this one and and had a new turbo fitted, although other things might go wrong, you are certainly starting from zero in terms of the fundamental mechanics.

To put things in perspective for you, you bought a second-hand vehicle and yet they fitted a new engine. They would have been entitled to require contribution from you so that you receive the equivalent of a second-hand engine in terms of value.
In exactly the same way, if it went to court, a court might well award you the value of a new turbo but with a deduction made for the fact that the turbo was second-hand when you bought it and also you had another 12 months use from it.
To give you a rough idea, the dealers would probably have been justified in charging you about 10% or 15% of the value of the engine plus installation.
If it went to court, and if the finance company argued the position, your award of a new turbo might also be reduced by between 15% and 17.5%.

It seems to me that your claim is against the finance company.
My site team colleague above pointed out that this shouldn't be treated as a complaint it should be treated as a section 75 issue. It's obvious to me now but I had never thought about it before.
So you should write a letter to the finance company on that basis. At the end of the day, would you be prepared to take an action against the finance company for the value of the turbo plus installation?
It is important to know this now in order to understand how hard you want to press the finance company.

So to sum up: would you prefer to keep the car? Would you be prepared to take a court action if necessary?

[Martin244]

Hi I had exactly the same opinion as you. When they told me they were replacing the engine i thought to myself, the car will be like brand new again but i never imagined that 8 months later I would be having issues with the turbo.

im happy to keep the car providing it is correctly repaired. I understand if i did reject I would loose some money for my useage, as well as loosing some  money I would also need to take on another vehicle on finance at a higher interest rate as the interest rates have gone up considerably since april last year. 
 

i would be happy to take legal action against the finance company and go to court if need be but i hope it doesn’t come to court action. 
 

You said you were surprised that the finance company wasn’t aware of the engine replacement, why does that surprise you? I wasn’t given a copy of the engine replacement documentation until last week when I asked for it as I wasn’t given any when I picked the car back up in November last year. I know I should have asked but I was just releived to have my car back.

 

convert-jpg-to-pdf.net_2023-06-25_09-51-42.pdf

[BankFodder]

As the car was purchased under hire purchase agreement, I would have thought you were the dealer would involve the finance company at every step of the way.
Now they are asking for proof that the engine was changed. I hope they don't start making some silly objections and saying that as the technical owner of the vehicle there should have been informed – which technically would be correct.

I think you're going to have difficulty getting anything done more quickly than their eight weeks – although the eight weeks is simply an industry practice which is permitted by the regulator and shouldn't have anything to do with you.
However, you may as well try to ramp it up. Of course the good thing is that you have got a working vehicle and you don't need anything in a hurry so from that point of view time is on your side.

You might want to send a letter

 

Quote

Dear Sir/Mdm

Vehicle Registration XXX – Finance Agreement Number XXX

Section 75 Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

Thank you for your letter of XXX date informing me that you are investigating a complaint which I apparently have made and that you need eight weeks to complete your investigation.

You are completely wrong that I have made a complaint. I have not. In fact I have begun a section 75 claim against you and you should be treating it as such.

As such, your eight week timescale for your investigation which you have reserved to yourself is not appropriate and things must be done far more quickly.

We are dealing here with a vehicle was purchased by yourselves and then sold on to me and the hire purchase agreement. The vehicle has demonstrated several faults and most recently it appears that the dealer has identified that there is an issue with the turbo and that the turbo needs to be replaced.

The estimate for the work is about £2400 and I am looking to you to agree to cover this charge. My own view is that as you have bought this from the dealer, they should be completing the work for you free of charge because clearly the car is not satisfactory quality and therefore the dealer is in breach of their contract with you – but that is a matter for you.

My position is that you have sold me a car under a finance agreement and which is not of satisfactory quality and I wish these defects to be addressed and it is inappropriate that you are treating this as a complaint.

As well as your obligations towards me under section 75 Consumer Credit Act, I would remind you that you also have obligations under the Conduct of Business Regulations (COBS) to treat you fairly and to communicate with me fairly.
If you failed to treat this matter as a Section 75 Consumer Credit Act claim then it is my view that you will be in breach of your COBS obligations and this could be the subject of a future complaint or even a court claim.

Please acknowledge this letter and let me know what you timescales for action are.

Signed

 

 

Have a look at the above proposed draft. See if it is to your taste. They won't be used to having this kind of letter and I can imagine that the drones who work for them public don't even know what their COBS are.
I don't have a lot of hope that you will be able to move this along very quickly but at least you are stating your position and if it does come perform complaint, you will be able to show a paper trail and that the finance company has always been fully informed.

That lot for a start.

[Martin244]

Hi bankfobber that you and thanks for the letter I will print tomorrow and send off although I’ll need to slightly edit as they have only sent me a message acknowledging a complaint not a letter. 
 

I’ll also send them a copy via email? Would you suggest doing that? They did say it could take upto 8 weeks but they are normally resolved before then. 
 

I’m not sure I have a fully working vehicle though as I dare not drive to speeds until the turbo is fixed. The engine management light is on as stated this came back on yesterday. I could take it back to the garage who couldn’t find an issue but should I? They wouldn’t charge me again as I he said to ring him if it came back on and he’ll look further into.

[BankFodder]

By all means send a copy by email .

Also the best thing to do is to keep it with the dealer who sold it to you.

They would be responsible anyway and they seem to have identify the major problem and it's not worth confusingly issue by going to a different dealer and more possibly a different affiliate

 

[theberengersniper]

My concern in relation to you keeping the car long term is as follows:

For the original engine to have failed in the manner it did - excessive crank shaft end float - the engine bearings responsible for controlling that end float, called thrust bearings, need to have become worn to such an extent that excessive movement is possible. Those bearings are made from a blend of metals, and they're deliberately sacrificial in comparison to the crank shaft itself, meaning they are designed to wear instead of the crank. For those bearings to allow significant crank movement, a significant amount of that metallic bearing material must have been worn off.

That bearing wear is in the form of fine metal particles, or even small shavings in extreme cases, and these particles are flushed out of the bearing with the engine's normal oil flow. Because these particles are so small, a substantial quantity of them don't stay in your engine's oil sump, instead they're flushed round and through the engine with the oil, and then end up deposited in places like your turbocharger. Being metal, these particles are highly abrasive, which can lead to premature failure of other bearings and seals, like your turbo has.

If someone asked me to guess why your turbo failed, I would hazard a guess at the following course of events:

1. Your engine failed because the thrust bearings wore to such an extent that excessive crank shaft end float was possible.
2. The engine was replaced, but other ancillaries like your turbo were not.
3. Your turbocharger's lubrication oil galleries had accumulated a quantity of bearing material swarf.
4. After your new engine was installed, the worn bearing material in your turbo went to work on destroying its seals and bearings.
5. Your turbocharger fails in short order.

I realise I'm speculating, but I would suggest (having seen this multiple times) that your turbo failing is not a separate issue, but rather a consequence of your original problem.

If possible, you should try to obtain a sample of oil from your car's sump, or from the turbo itself, and have it tested for bearing contamination. If the oil supply is contaminated, that will enable you to tie its failure to that of the engine itself.

Another test worth doing is removing the oil sump plug. Sump plugs are usually magnetic and designed to capture metal particles in the oil. They don't catch them all, but again, if you see any particles stuck to it, or even a 'silvery' colour to the oil, you can link the turbo failure to that of the engine itself.

And so, if you keep the car, but the new engine's oil supply is already contaminated, you could be sitting on a time bomb waiting for something else to go.

Edited June 26, 2023 by theberengersniper

[BankFodder]

5 minutes ago, theberengersniper said:

My concern in relation to you keeping the car long term is as follows ....

Wow!!  

[Martin244]

It feels like i'm on a time bomb already, every time i drive the car I'm on edge every time i hear a noise thinking its some thing else going on the car.

I know I bought the car second hand but it had only done 6500 miles, I never imagined within 5/6 months of me buying the car having only travelled 4000 miles the engine would need replacing. And now 14 months down the line a new turbo? 

Bankfodder I'm sending the letter to Halifax that you did for me yesterday. Theberengersniper should I take the car back to the garage where it took it last Monday to ask them to obtain the oil sample? But what would I do with the sample? Thank you 

[dx100uk]

4 hours ago, theberengersniper said:

If possible, you should try to obtain a sample of oil from your car's sump, or from the turbo itself, and have it tested for bearing contamination. If the oil supply is contaminated, that will enable you to tie its failure to that of the engine itself.

 

[Martin244]

Hi DX100uk, thank you I’m sorry I’m just new to all this and haven’t needed to have oil tested before or how to go about it.

I’ve contacted the garage I took the car to last week and he advised me to buy a test kit from millers.Co.uk and he will get me the oil sample and write an explanation to millers as to why we are wanting the testing. I paid £40 for a sample kit which I’m waiting to be posted to me. 
 

is this to help my case with Halifax or evans Halshaw?

I’ll keep you posted as to when I receive the kit and then the results.

I’ll also be posting the letter that bankfodder did for me.

Do i mention any of this to Halifax?

thank you

[dx100uk]

both

yes later.

 

[Martin244]

Thank you. The oil got changed on the cars service last month would this matter? 

[theberengersniper]

If you can obtain a sample of oil, you will need to get in touch with someone like The Oil Lab (Google them). They will analyse your oil sample for contaminants and send you a report on its condition and what if anything they find mixed in with it.

Your oil having been changed is the reason I suggested trying to obtain a sample directly from the turbocharger's oil feed and return pipework, there's more chance of contaminants still being there than in the sump oil.

Either way, this is now a reasonably long shot because, as you suspect, a substantial amount of contaminated oil will have been flushed out with the oil change, but I would doubt all of it.

[Martin244]

Hi TheBerengersniper the oil test kit i have ordered from millersoils.co.uk they will test the oil for contamination i'm just waiting for the kit to come hopefully in the next couple of days. 

I spoke to Halifax the finance company yesterday to ask if they had any update and they haven't even given me a case worker yet, so i sent them a copy of the letter that bankfodder did for me, slightly revised. They did tell me they had emailed the garage Evans Halshaw but had had no response - neither as I.

It seems I have done wrong for doing right, by getting the car serviced but if I hadnt have had it serviced they would have blamed me for lack of maintenance - catch 22.

Thank you.

 

[theberengersniper]

Testing your oil with that kit will be a good idea, but remember you're not really looking for chemical contamination, it's literally tiny bits of metal you're looking for. If you can obtain the sample, in addition to your test kit, I would suggest finding a reasonably strong magnet and leaving that magnet in a cup of oil overnight. Extract the magnet the next day and check for signs of metal on it.

[Martin244]

Hi when i went to speak to the local garage yesterday, i printed out a copy of what you wrote to me regarding the testing. He rang Millers to check that they'll do the swarf deposit check, when the sample kit arrives he is going to write an explanation of what we require from the testing. I'll also do the over night magnet.

 As I have already mentioned I have sent the letter off to Halifax and also emailed them a copy.

Before I found this site I also raised a claim with Vauxhall direct on Thursday 15th June - should I give them a call to chase this up or leave it with halifax as the car is on hire purchase?

I know this might sound wishful thinking but if Vauxhall say we are prepared to pay for the new turbo - do you think i should accept this?

Your post yesterday really hit home when you said about the car been a time bomb as this is how it feels?

Cheers

[theberengersniper]

Others like BankFodder or DX are better to advise you on what action you should take to chase people up, but I would suggest it will do you no harm to keep everyone up to date yourself. Personally, I would not rely on anyone else taking action for you.

If I was in your position, and I'd managed to secure agreement that Vauxhall would replace the turbocharger at no cost to me, I would also want them to guarantee me that in the process of fitting it that they were going to flush out the oil feed and return pipework to the turbo. As I'm sure you now appreciate, you need to assume bearing material is now contaminating your engine's lubrication system, so simply replacing the major components doesn't address that issue.

If I could agree a new turbo, and if they would flush the pipework while fitting it, then I would consider keeping the car, with one crucial caveat. I would want to know if the replacement engine, fitted as a result of the Technical Service Bulletin (TSB), contains updated parts to mitigate the same original failure from happening again, or else you could find you've been through all this hassle only for the original problem to come back in another x-thousand miles.

[Martin244]

Thanks for this, i haven’t had any update from Vauxhall, despite me chasing or from Halifax the finance company. If vauxhall do offer to replace the turbo I’ll be getting it done and selling the car - I can’t see them doing anything though despite the problems I have had I think I’m going to have to fight it all the way.

I’m still awaiting for the test kit to come which will hopefully arrive today. 
 

[Martin244]

The’ve tried delivering the oil testing kit today but no one was home so they are re- delivering tomorrow, won’t be able to get the test done until Friday as I need to take the kit to the garage. Should of had the kit delivered to my work but at least it’s coming.

could the possible oil contamination be anything to do with the replacement vac pump needed too? I don’t know what this is. Evans Halshaw have not given me any explanation as to why the turbo has gone or vac pump