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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
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      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

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Victorian Plumbing or Labourer issue - how can we resolve this


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We recently had a bathroom supplied by Victorian Plumbing.  When finished we noticed the bath leaked and flagged it with the labourer (who we employed) and he said he's noticed the bath was slightly out but didn't think it would cause issues - he never once raised that there was a possible fault.  It did - badly.  Water continuously ran off the bath and onto the floor, getting under the bath and damaging the flooring.  

 

We contacted Victorian Plumbing who said it was a manufacturer fault.  We discussed with our labourer who told us that "the tradesperson always ends up out of pocket as we lose 2 days of paid work to fix these problems".  Victorian Plumbing agreed to refund the cost of the bath but not the associated refit labour costs.  We told the plumber this and he didn't say anything about it - just that we need to let him know when we get the new bath we should let him know. 

 

We bought a bath elsewhere and it was fitted yesterday.  At the end of the day we were presented with a bill for fitting for £400.  At no point in any of our correspondence with the fitter did he say there was a cost, or indeed confirm what that cost would be.  We would have pushed Victorian Plumbing to cover this cost if he hadn't implied that he was doing unpaid work.  

 

I don't think I have a leg to stand on to now go back to Victorian Plumbing.  Who is at fault and how on earth can I resolve this without being out of pocket?

 

Thank you

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im sure this would fall under a consequential losses claim.

 

pinging @BankFodder

 

dx

 

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please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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It sounds quite a lot like consequential loss but in this case I think it could be recoverable.

The interesting thing here is that Victoria plumbing apparently have agreed that there is a fault although they say that it is a manufacturers fault and presumably they are trying to say that the manufacturer is liable.

In fact if Victoria plumbing have supplied a faulty item then I would say that they are liable for all of the losses which are the direct and foreseeable result of their breach of contract.
It's absolutely foreseeable that a bath would be fitted, and that if it was faulty it would have to be refitted or replaced and refitted and that this would incur additional costs.

The most important thing here is to try to get it on record that Victoria plumbing have admitted that there is a fault with the bath.

What precisely is the fault? Is it visible?

And as a general warning, there are often problems way you purchase something from one company hadn't have it installed by somebody else. It always gives an opportunity for each party to try and pass the buck onto the other party and you end up as the piggy in the middle.

Do you have evidence that Victoria plumbing have agreed that there is a fault? If not then you need to think about how to get them to admit it on a telephone recording for instance. Read our customer services guide

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We do have an email admitting it’s a manufacturer fault from VP. In the same email they said they will refund the item but not the labour (which our labourer seemed to accept). We are now a couple of months down the line and the bath was bought elsewhere. 
 

the fault is a slope of the product so water pools on the top. We sent picture and video evidence when they claimed it was a manufacturing fault. 
 

our issue is reopening this claim now the fitter has changed his mind. How do I go about this. 
 

thanks for your help so far 

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By how much are you out of pocket on this?

This means, how much are you out of pocket by the time you have subtracted the price which you originally agreed to pay for the bath and for the work.

Please list it out in tabulated form

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I did ask you to set out in tabulated form but you haven't done that.

Do I gather that if you manage to recover £400 that you would then be out of pocket by exactly the amount you originally agreed to pay and you would have a satisfactory bottom in place?

In other words would recovering £400 set you at zero?

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Yes I think so. We have paid £5000 for the bathroom fitting. The bath has been refunded and we have purchased another with that money. The outstanding invoice is £400 which, if refunded would set us to be £0 out of pocket. At the moment we haven’t paid the £400 as we are disputing it. 
 

does that help. 

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I'm worried that you only think that 400 is the outstanding amount.

 

From whom are you withholding the 400 pounds?

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And could you just tell us once again why you are withholding the money from the plumber

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He implied that the labour was free. We’ve had numerous discussions about how he would be losing out on two days worth of pay (ended up being just one day). He only landed the bill on us after fitting it. He fit the bath originally knowing there was a fault but he said he didn’t realise the extent of the fault. 

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In what way did he imply that the fitting would be free ?

 

In the end, I understand that it only took him one day to complete the installation. Is this correct

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Of the replacement. Yes that’s correct. 
 

he told us that he would be losing out on paid work to fix the problem and he didn’t discuss a price with us on the numerous contact we had with him. We told him we tried to get compensation to cover the cost of his labour from the outset and that the company refused. At no point did he tell us that we’d need to pay. Again, he knew there was a fault but didn’t raise it until we pointed it out. 

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Thank you. First of all the entire liability lies with Victoria plumbing and your claim is against them for whatever losses you might have suffered.

 

 

As to bringing an action. You will have to show that you have suffered a loss and that means that you will have to produce some kind of receipt to show that you have paid the plumber something.

 

In terms of the liability to the plumber, although no price may have been discussed, it is clear that he would expect to be paid and in any normal circumstances he would be paid. Where a price had not be an agreed then a reasonable price would be implied.

 

My own personal view is that it is not the fault of the plumber and to withhold money from him not only would be very unfair but would also be a breach of contract.

If your plumber came here and asked us for help we would advise him to claim against you, seeking a reasonable price for a days work and I am absolutely certain that we would win against you.

 

You will not be able to claim  against Victoria plumbing unless you pay the plumber first.

 

If you think that 400 pounds is too much for a day's work then you should work out a reasonable price with him and pay him the money and get receipt and then we will help you claim it from Victoria plumbing.

 

Once you have evidence of your payment to Victoria plumbing then we will help you make the claim and I am certain that you will win. They would be foolish to resist and they would probably be put their hands up, but if they forced you to court then I expect that you would have a better than 90% chance of success.

 

In any event, the plumber deserves to be paid

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We seem to be in a bit of stale mate with VP. Because our plumber indicated he’d lose out having to refit the bath, we didn’t push it with VP. Now we’ve raised again to have the costs covered, they are now saying case closed as we accepted them saying they wouldn’t cover it. Can we still fight this? I’m frustrated our plumber wasn’t clear from the start and now we have to lose out. I’m trying to post screenshots but it won’t allow me to. 

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I really don't understand what is happening here. You came to this forum asking how you could resolve this and we have explained how you can achieve this.

Now you have come back again raising all sorts of objections as to why you don't think you can.

I think you need to make up your mind about this and then start taking control. If that's what you want

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I completely understand. What I’m asking is are we able to pursue it further if we’ve already accepted to just take the money back from VP for the bath? Can we still claim for consequential losses even though Victoria plumb think that we’ve close the case with them?

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Tell us about the circumstances of the refund and any communication relating to it

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They gave us a refund for the bath and panel. They said they wouldn’t cover labour costs. After speaking with our plumber and him telling us he was losing out on pay to fix this issue, we accepted the claim as he said he wanted to keep us happy by resolving the problem and replacing the bath. We would have pursued it if he’d been clearer. We told VP that we accepted this as a final settlement, at that point not being aware of potential further consequential losses. This is where we are stuck. 

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Did the refund they give you equal exactly your Outlay or did they give you anything on top by way of compensation

What about the Faulty bath? How was that disposed of

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In other words, Victoria plumbing did no more than they were obliged to do by law anyway, which was to give you a refund of the item.

This means that they gave no additional consideration for the promise that it would be in full and final settlement.

 

I don't think there was anything to stop you proceeding for the rest of your expenses which were reasonably incurred.

What about the plumber, have you paid him yet

 

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