UKPC/DCB(Legal) 11+PCNs for privately owned van used for my Ltd Co. - PAPLOC for 5, gained Default Judgement!! - Parkhorse Shopping Centre, Church St, Hudds, HD1 2RT **SET ASIDE+CLAIM DISMISSED**

[FTMDave]

Thanks for this.  I'll go through it with a fine tooth comb later to see if they have respected POFA time frames.

 

The creep who took the photos was very interested in a ticket on the dashboard (20.06.2018).  Can you remember what is was for?

 

My thinking is that they might try and use this against you and pretend you had to pay or something.

[mrk1]

It might have been for a totally different car park. See I do follow the rules. No idea why it was there. You sometimes in a rush and leave them don’t you. 
thank you again!! 

 

Just to clarify.

 

There were no ticket machines at this site then.

 

Probably still isn’t.

 

Does this add any meat to my bone? 

 

Just in response to your point about the ticket in the window.  

 

That just have been from some other parking sites.

 

Which proves I do pay for parking when required.

 

Apart from when I’m caught out or misguided.  

[FTMDave]

Understood, much ado about nothing from me.

 

I'm busy now but promise to look through your attachment properly late this evening.

[brassnecked]

Yours from UKPS seems to be breaching a prohibition as in no permit no parking but you weren't parked as per Jopson v Homeguard you were unloading.  So begs the question and it might be one to chuck at any brief they sent, If it was a DPD, Yodel driver in an plain white van delivering without a permit, or a Scania artic  delivering would they be expected to obtain a permit?

[mrk1]

Yes good shout. There were 20ft arctic lorries in there for hours or more unloading, for the bigger shops that were in there, they used to block the whole in and out, the in and out was just one entrance / exit, no real management in there.. Just mindless bullies with yellow jackets.

I was unloading for 15 to 25 mins. 11 times over 1 year. I was unloading and loading every 2 days as well so it just goes to show it’s only when they’ve caught me in that half hour as if it was me parking all day as I was in the shop every single day then I’d have 365 parking tickets. 

 

Should I just call the fleecers and tell them this?

Maybe ask to speak with their head management, tell them the situ?!

 

I got a letter back from part of the management of the shopping centre should I upload as a PDF?

I am not sure it's a good idea to post on here?

 

He's a bit unsure what he can do, didn't exactly jump at the chance to help. But said if there's anything I can do please message back.... YES THERE IS SOMETHING YOU CAN DO!

[honeybee13]

Don't rush into something that could backfire on you, please. You don't give the fleecers anything that you might be able to use against them later or they will figure out ways of defeating you. Now is the time to be patient and build your case, as I said before, don't do something impulsive.

 

Post up what you have from management minus identifying information and the guys will advise.

 

HB

[mrk1]

I have been forwarded your email below as I managed the Packhorse Shopping Centre in Huddersfield on behalf of NewRiver before they sold the property in 2021.

 

I recall you being a tenant back in 2017 and 2018 on site when you held a lease in the name of your shop, but have no record of you having reported receiving the parking tickets at the time.

Do you know who you raised this with?

 

I can confirm that UKPC UK Parking Control Limited were contracted by NewRiver Retail (GP1) Ltd, the landlord of the Packhorse Shopping Centre in Huddersfield at the time, to provide parking management restrictions in the service yard area with effect from March 2018. They replaced the previous provider, Care Parking. The centre manager confirmed on 21st March 2018 that he wrote to all the tenants that day advising them of their appointment which went live on 23rd March 2018.

 

UKPC’s services included installing signage that stated the parking restrictions that were in force. I note the point in your email about there being no planning permission in place for these signs, though as these were not outdoors with them being in an internal covered private service yard I do not believe they would have required this but that is a point you will need to discuss with them.

 

I trust this assists but if you need anything further please let me know.

 

Kind regards

[FTMDave]

You haven't been taken to court yet, and there is still a chance that this NewRiver Retail (GP1) Ltd could stop the fleecers, but court is probable and as HB says you need to slowly build up evidence against UKPC.

 

You've already found out they had no PP.

 

Regarding the invoices, unfortunately on every single occasion they've respected the time frames of the Protection of Freedoms Act Schedule 4 so, although they don't know who the driver was, they can transfer liability to the keeper ...

 

... unless there are other balls-up on the PCNs.  Forum regular lookinforinfo is an expert on these things and I'm sure will look in soon.

 

The only possible exception is the 12.07.2018 one.  The reminder letter arrived on 11.09.2018.  But what about the first letter?  You've blanked out the date.

 

 

Edited January 6, 2023 by FTMDave
Typo

[FTMDave]

What would have been easy in 2018 is now going to be damn difficult.

 

In 2018 UKPC would have been given an order by their client to scrap your tickets and would have had to obey given (a) they were working for the client and (b) they wanted to stay in the client's good books and have their contract renewed.

 

Fast forward four and a half years and you'll be contacting a company that no longer owns the shopping centre asking them to intervene with UKPC who won't give a toss about the ex-client having been booted out.

 

Still, you can only do your best.

 

So ask your contact to put in a good word for you with NewRiver Retail (GP1) Ltd.

 

And ask NewRiver Retail (GP1) Ltd to tell UKPC to cancel the tickets.

 

And, a long shot - have you still got a record on your phone of when you called UKPC about the tickets?

 

 

Edited January 6, 2023 by FTMDave
Typo

[mrk1]

From a manager at the company that owns or owned the shopping centre.

 

 

The parking system that we had in place meant that there was a process to be followed before any Parking Charge Notices were issued to cars parked in the service yard.

 

The operative from UKPC would call the centre manager or security team to check if a parked car belonged to a tenant,

 

if they were a tenant they would get confirmation that they were they permitted to park in the service yard, and if not were they in the process of loading/unloading. Only then would a decision be made to issue a parking ticket.

 

Given the amount of time that has passed since these tickets were issued, there is not a lot I can do to assist here other than provide what I have already sent over to you.

 

We can no longer review any CCTV from the time to provide evidence to UKPC as to why these parking tickets should be cancelled because they would only have been issued if the process described above had been followed which would have been correct for them to do so.

 

Kind regards

[FTMDave]

Totally predictable.

 

Indeed there is little they can do given they no longer own the place and UKPC were booted out years ago.

 

It is evidence however that tenants weren't supposed to be ticketed and you were a tenant.

 

Send the snotty letter off in a fortnight or so, but it won't work with £1600 to play for, you will have to battle UKPC in court.

[mrk1]

Exactly I was a tenant.

Loading and unloading.

This is just absurd I am in this situation.

 

This is what you get for trying to run a business and make a dying town somewhere to visit.

 

I really do not want to go to court. No way. 

What do I do here now. 
I don’t have £1600 to give. I don’t need the stress of all Of this.
Had I been taking the micky I’d have had 365 pcn - but I have 11.

And it’s clear it’s when I’ve been loading or unloading.

What about the large pdf I uploaded. Anything on there? 

What Should I do now ? 
What do judges usually see here?

Surely any judge will see I was a tenant?!  
 

 

 

[FTMDave]

You send the snotty letter in 10 days or so.

 

Then the ball will be in UKPC's court.  It is almost certain that for £1600 they will take you to court. 

 

Then we help you win the court battle.

[lookinforinfo]

Just a quickie for now but the manager who has been writing to you is quite correct about planning permission. If the area is enclosed there is no need for planning permission.

 

Having looked at all the PCNs you uploaded not one of them complies with the protection of freedoms Act 2012.  That means UKPC cannot transfer the liability from the driver to the keeper. Bear in mind that the driver could be any of your family or friends or anyone else who has a valid vehicle insurance is able to drive that car.

 

The reason they don't comply is because under the Act UKPC must specify the period of parking during which the alleged breach occurred. all they have is the time the vehicle was first seen. They do show photos in all cases  but they are only spread across a couple of minutes or so. You are allowed a consideration period of five minutes so there was no breach according to the PCNs.

 

In addition they have missed out a vital piece of the Act in the Notice to Keeper.   PoFA  Schedule 4 S8 or 9 [2][f]  since both applied as sometimes you had a windscreen ticket and other times you didn't  states "(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)". Well all the applicable conditions were not met as they didn't include the period of parking. In addition they also missed off the phrase above in parentheses which in itself is a breach of the Act.

 

As far as I remember most PCNs ,if not all ,were issued because of a lack of a permit rather than a case of no parking which unloading would have been the get out clause. I am surprised that as you were there so often you didn't qualify for a permit. Could you have got one  At other times when you were unloading perhaps the car park management said you were a tenant and it was ok to unload there?

 

 

 

[mrk1]

Thanks for this.

 

It seems you have hit some nails on the head. Hopefully power for me if this ever goes court?! 

As for a parking pass that was something given to long term traders. There may have only been 4 or 5. 
But as we know. I was not parking. I was only loading or unloading sacks of used clothing each weighing 20kg. 

We were allowed to unload or load.

 

As I stated if I was taking the micky I’d have 365 parking tickets as I’d be parking every day. But I have 11 only. Spread out over the year when I was caught loading or unloading.  

[lookinforinfo]

Are you saying that in that enclosed car park it was Permit holders only unless you were loading and unloading, or were there specific areas outside the Permit only part of the car park that loading/unloading was permitted?

[mrk1]

Parking was permit holders only to my knowledge.

 

Those with permits would have been management or the special chosen traders who were able to got one. To be honest I don’t remember there being any marked bays as such. I don’t think. No special permit bays I think it was just an unmarked space. 

 

When 20ft hgv come in they just parked wherever they could. When people loaded or unloaded they parked were they could. Was a bit of a free for all. 

[brassnecked]

In which case could be argued that the fleecer's should have invoiced the artic driver's for no permit , have come across gated and fleecer infested developments where delivery couriers in liveried vans have been invoiced for parking while delivering for not displaying a Permit that they would never know they need being as how they might deliver there once a week potentially.  Might be still worth using Jopson v Homeguard as a defence case as you were unloading not parking irrespective of parking conytrols, ergo my use of the artic driver's and delivery courier's as an example of the unreasonableness of the Fleecer's position.   Thoughts folks.

[mrk1]

I was only ever loading or unloading. How is it I can be in This position.

This is some rubbish and these Edit not getting a penny. 
If it goes court who will represent me? 

[FTMDave]

1 hour ago, mrk1 said:

If it goes court who will represent me? 

You'll represent yourself like everyone on CAG.

 

Court wins for Caggers are around 85%.

 

It's not "if", it's "when" given £1600 is at stake.

 

You know what you should have done four and a half years ago, but didn't, so there's no point moaning about court now.

[Nicky Boy]

As has already been pointed out, with the money involved, the chances are that the fleecers will likely do court, so you need to accept that eventuality.
You've done well so far exploring all of the usual quick fixes, unfortunately without success, but all is not lost.

You've also built some rapport with people who may be able to help you...
You should now be slowly gathering evidence to show the judge what charlatans these fleecers are.
And possibly even starting to draft a witness statement.

 

You really shouldn't worry about doing court.
(I've been there, employment tribunal, and it really isn't scary).
You come across as the type who would put on a good show in court.

 

I beleive your tenancy agreement is a strong piece of supporting evidence for your case. It entitled you to make deliveries.
Have you still got it, or could you get a copy of it from the previous site owner?
Also did the site owner actually own the land, or if it was leasehold, who the freeholder is
While you're at it, ask for a copy of the owner's agreement with the fleecers.

 

A couple of suggestions for your witness statement further down the line...
The fleecer's photographs...

It looks like you stopped the van next to entrance doors, not in a marked bay. This is very persuasive that you were carrying stock through doors into the centre.
You've indicated your stock in one of their photographs. There's also some in another photo, and there are also display racks in another (Which were definitely yours, weren't they! )... all evidence that you were unloading.

 

Already mentioned are their time stamped photos... They only show your van stopped for 14 seconds, 18 seconds, 27 seconds, 33 seconds, 37 seconds, 39 seconds, 1 minute 22 seconds, 1 minute 31 seconds, and the "biggy"...2 minute 44 seconds!
Not exactly evidence of being "parked".

I'm sure others will come up with more ammunition.

[mrk1]

Sounds good thanks.

 

Later on or tomorrow I’m going to re read the entire thread and make notes. Get a list of evidence on billet point form. And contact all appropriate parties for leases and contracts. 

Certainly was my stock on the floor. And certainly I was there loading or unloading as a tenant. For no more than 5 or 10 minutes.

 

This is absurd that these dogs actually think they can come and hold me over the toilet and empty my pockets.

 

Why are these [edited - HB] allowed to operate like this. 

[dx100uk]

please stop swearing and using like words ,

you've done it throughout your thread and its been changed each post.

 

be civil be nice, calling them names does not exactly help your case nor attitude toward them.

 

 

[mrk1]

Agreed. Sorry about that. 

[lookinforinfo]

I understand that   you were not the driver on any occasion when the PCNs were issued. As none of the PCNs are PoFA compliant they cannot win in Court.